• Quick Shot Challenge: What’s the dumbest shooting myth you’ve heard?

    Drop it in the replies for the chance to win a free shirt!

    Join the contest

LR Tip

Sterling Shooter

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 10, 2004
2,835
29
Louisville, Kentucky
I have a .308 with 24 inch barrel which is typically loaned to junior shooters who I am mentoring. Shooting 175's with an average of 2650 fps, and using a 1/4 MOA adjustable sight, a good hold can get a bullet right-in there to 297 yards with 18 clicks on the sight from a 100 yard zero. With 19 clicks on the sight a good hold can get a bullet right in there at 315 yards. Now, since in competition a shooter would be shooting at 300 yards, it's apparent this rifle cannot be exactly zeroed for 300 yards with the velocity of 2650 fps. This is not a big deal at 300 yards but not having an average muzzle velocity which will get a trajectory for a pinwheel X at 1000 yards will mean lost points. Thing is, this sort of precision is not likely to be realized by most shooters competing at any but the highest levels of competition. But for those here who are gaming here's a tip.

With whatever load you're shooting at 1000, record all strikes that are called right-in-there for elevation. Thereafter, connect the dots to get what should be a somewhat horizontal line. This line could of course intersect the X and you would obviously want to leave your load alone. But, if your horizontal line appeared above or below the X, a tweak to raise or lower average muzzle velocity could be worth while, since a zero which consistently produces hits across an imaginary horizontal line intersecting the X of the X ring will buy points when wind is not correctly countered. For example, the shooter could catch a scratch 10, which without a definable zero through velocity adjustment would yield a 9.

Now, this tip is not likely to help anyone who cannot hold to produce a horizontal line when connecting the dots, and it will not aid a shooter who has anything other than the lowest ES and SD for their hand-loads using a temperature insensitive powder. Nevertheless, for those who can hold elevation, this is the icing on the cake strategy to better assure a win.

I actually use this technique with my Service Rifle shooting with irons at 1000 yards, since I want all the help I can get from my ammunition to hold a decent elevation, since my eyes are suspect. That's to say, even with a sharp post and a well defined target, I'm not always confident that my perception of a good 6 o'clock hold is a consistent perspective on the matter.
 
Re: LR Tip

It seems like a good idea, but temperature fluctuation changes density altitude enough that I question how good this will work, unless you are always shooting at the same D/A.
 
Re: LR Tip

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seems like a good idea, but temperature fluctuation changes density altitude enough that I question how good this will work, unless you are always shooting at the same D/A.</div></div>

Yes, I think you're right, and, indeed ya might end up on match day with some sort of environmental condition to make the average muzzle velocity/trajectory actually further from what it would need to be on that day for line of sight/bullet path to intersect exactly at 1000 yards. Still, my score books pages indicate my 2800 fps muzzle velocity can get a horizontal line real close the bulls-eye diameter.
 
Re: LR Tip

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I'd take a hair off the front sight.</div></div>

My problem with that is coming to an understanding for when a hair has been taken off. What I try to do is remember from shot to shot a picture which looks to be the same. Perhaps, shooting with a scope sight this could be applicable and preclude any need for the strategy.
 
Re: LR Tip

So, do you think it is better to...

A) Develop a load aiming for single digit ES/SD and determine hold in elevation to get you in the X ring

or

B) Change MV to get you "between click values" so that you can hit the X ring.

In my eyes anyway, upping the MV might give you inconsistency overall so I would be inclined to stick with a good load and work on holds.

Have I not understood?
 
Re: LR Tip

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, do you think it is better to...

A) Develop a load aiming for single digit ES/SD and determine hold in elevation to get you in the X ring

or

B) Change MV to get you "between click values" so that you can hit the X ring.



In my eyes anyway, upping the MV might give you inconsistency overall so I would be inclined to stick with a good load and work on holds.

Have I not understood?</div></div>

Holding X-ring with irons is the problem, and that's why in addition to massaging my ammunnition for a low SD and ES, I've come to the MV strategy to get me between clicks.
 
Re: LR Tip

Here's an example of what I was getting at:

Using your number of 2800 muzzle velocity, and a BC of .496 (just pulling it out of my ass because I don't know what you are shooting for bullets, but I will assume some type of 155.)

1/4 moa clicks give you about 2.5 inches of adjustment at 1000 yards. Assuming that you are between two clicks would suggest a profound level of accuracy for shooting at 1000 yards, but that aside, here is what I am getting at:

At 100 feet above sea level, and 70 degrees, your bullet will drop 376.9 inches from the bore. At 75 degrees, your bullet will drop 274.7 inches. So, in just a 5 degree temperature spread, you are at 2.2 inches difference in drop already.

To suggest that you can fine tune between 1/4 moa clicks is to me... unrealistic. Unless, that is, you are holding better than 1/4 moa at 1000 yards, and always shooting at precisely the same temperature.
 
Re: LR Tip

Sounds good. I just swaged up a few 175gr. projos and I used my load from my 185's.No idea of MV, I shot them in an FT/R match @ 600 Kept hitting the spotter, Actually destroyed 5 of them, Hit the plastic spindle. OOPS ! final score was 599-40x Was I surprised with the load? you bet, I have spent hours to get a good load worked up to insure accuracy is top notch. But sometimes we get lucky. We will see how they do this weekend at 1000.
 
Re: LR Tip

SS...one question here. If you lower the muzzle velocity by reducing the load/powder weight, then that will change the vibration pattern so that you'll theoretically be "off the node" for best accuracy. Do you try to find the "node" or do you find the node theory to be useless BS?
 
Re: LR Tip

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's an example of what I was getting at:

Using your number of 2800 muzzle velocity, and a BC of .496 (just pulling it out of my ass because I don't know what you are shooting for bullets, but I will assume some type of 155.)

1/4 moa clicks give you about 2.5 inches of adjustment at 1000 yards. Assuming that you are between two clicks would suggest a profound level of accuracy for shooting at 1000 yards, but that aside, here is what I am getting at:

At 100 feet above sea level, and 70 degrees, your bullet will drop 376.9 inches from the bore. At 75 degrees, your bullet will drop 274.7 inches. So, in just a 5 degree temperature spread, you are at 2.2 inches difference in drop already.

To suggest that you can fine tune between 1/4 moa clicks is to me... unrealistic. Unless, that is, you are holding better than 1/4 moa at 1000 yards, and always shooting at precisely the same temperature.</div></div>

Yes, you're right in all aspects, this strategy is ridiculous for sure, but, with 1/4 minute adjustments, just one click down from let's say a 1/2 minute high strike at 1000 would put me about a 1/2 minute low, That's because my eyes can't resolve a 1/4 minute click value at distance. Seeing this on days at 1000 made me think well since I can't hold a hair and I can't make the click value less than a quarter, why not just try to tweak the powder charge. Certainly, temp and who knows what must all come together,, yet, if things don't come together, it appears I'm no worse for wear, just out at little time.
 
Re: LR Tip

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, you're right in all aspects, this strategy is ridiculous for sure, but, with 1/4 minute adjustments, just one click down from let's say a 1/2 minute high strike at 1000 would put me about a 1/2 minute low </div></div>...having a hard time following you here. A half minute high strike should leave you 1/4 minute high at one 1/4 minute click down from there, and perfectly zero'd at 2x 1/4 minute low clicks. Unless I'm completely missing something.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why not just try to tweak the powder charge. Certainly, temp and who knows what must all come together,, yet, if things don't come together, it appears I'm no worse for wear, just out at little time. </div></div>I can follow you here, 100%!
 
Re: LR Tip

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, you're right in all aspects, this strategy is ridiculous for sure, but, with 1/4 minute adjustments, just one click down from let's say a 1/2 minute high strike at 1000 would put me about a 1/2 minute low </div></div>...having a hard time following you here. A half minute high strike should leave you 1/4 minute high at one 1/4 minute click down from there, and perfectly zero'd at 2x 1/4 minute low clicks. Unless I'm completely missing something.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why not just try to tweak the powder charge. Certainly, temp and who knows what must all come together, yet, if things don't come together, it appears I'm no worse for wear, just out at little time. </div></div>I can follow you here, 100%!</div></div>

Remember, I'm using irons, post front and .042 rear aperture. The click value is indeed right-on at 1/4 and for any known velocity the sights can track accurately to distance. But, once at distance a 1/4 minute click, for me ends up being more like a half minute of movement since I cannot physically hold to the quarter. Just for grins and giggles one day I set out an MR-31 at 100 to see from the prone sling supported position if I could get a pinwheel x zero. BTW, my Service Rifle is an AR based one, and I'm shooting 80 grain Bergers. At any rate, after 5 rounds, I noticed I had a group center just a 1/4 minute left off the X, so I clicked a quarter. To my surprise, I shot the next 5 rounds a quarter to the right of the X. After 20 rounds for record, I had a score of 198 with two distinct groups, one of them to the left of the X and one to the right of the X. The X itself was still hanging on by a thread. Now, if I was not an awesome prone slung shooter, I would have never uncovered this very interesting fact which is how with no magnification, the hold is based more on accepting what you think looks the same in the way of a sight picture rather than what may actually be the same. That's to say understanding or resolving identical holds is not likely. If I could, then I would have knocked out that X is short order. One more bit of minutia, When I go to the firing line believing with perfection through discipline that I will be able to send bullets into the same hole vacated by their predecessors, I am able to hold about a 1/2 minute for a 20 round string of fire with a few lazy shots usually opening things up to blow my 20X clean attempt. Nevertheless one day when I was really sharp I managed a 198 and 17, where 17 rounds appeared in a nice round 1/2 minute group.
 
Re: LR Tip

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would love to see how you shoot sterling.

How long have you been in the LR game? High master is a big acheivement.</div></div>

I earned my HM LR rating in 2002. I did not earn the rating with the Service Rifle. In fact, at LR with Service Rifle I've never posted an HM score. My average with it is 186. My HM rating came from shooting an iron sight H-S Precision barreled Remington 700 in .308 fitted with Jewell trigger and stocked with an H-S Precision marksman stock with adjustable saddle comb and adjustable pull. I began NRA LR in 1999, as I recall. Most of my LR shooting today is with the AR based Service Rifle, which I believe is a better platform for LR skills development than alternatives. Seems to me the Service Rifle forces perfection/recognition of everything that's important to good shooting. Perhaps, only of interest to me, I got my HM LR rating not because I knew much about good shooting as much as having the will to do it. It's only today from Service Rifle shooting with sling that I have come to learn what's really important.
 
Re: LR Tip

Here's a thought... get a scope and hold off, rather than dicking with a load that works.

Or, if you have a load that 1/4 moa clicks on an iron-sight gun won't *quite* put you dead-nuts-centered for elevation... honestly, who cares?

The X-ring is 1 MOA, the 10 ring is 2 MOA (I know Charles knows this, but others might not). Most High Master level shooters I know would laugh at such a suggestion. Some of these guys are pretty hard holders... I think they'd rather fudge their hold a bit rather than go chasing nirvana by tuning the MV of their load to tweak their zero less than 1/4 moa.
 
Re: LR Tip

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a thought... get a scope and hold off, rather than dicking with a load that works.

Or, if you have a load that 1/4 moa clicks on an iron-sight gun won't *quite* put you dead-nuts-centered for elevation... honestly, who cares?

The X-ring is 1 MOA, the 10 ring is 2 MOA (I know Charles knows this, but others might not). Most High Master level shooters I know would laugh at such a suggestion. Some of these guys are pretty hard holders... I think they'd rather fudge their hold a bit rather than go chasing nirvana by tuning the MV of their load to tweak their zero less than 1/4 moa.</div></div>

Holding X elevation makes the target effectively bigger, that's why I consider all strategies, including ones which most would laugh at. The bottom line is at X elevation the scoring rings are wider and therefore offer the hardest holder to X elevation more points, when wind counter is not exact. And, who cares, well, I suppose anyone who wants to win. And, yes as already mentioned, a guy with a scope can favor, since with magnification favor is resolvable; however, favoring with irons at LR, even for wind, is not as exact as would be clicking.
 
Re: LR Tip

So... rather than dick with a load that works and is at an accurate 'node' or sweet spot, why not move your front sight tunnel a fuzz forward or back to adjust your sight radius and therefore click-value to accommodate your perfect zero?

ROTFLMFAO...


 
Re: LR Tip

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So... rather than dick with a load that works and is at an accurate 'node' or sweet spot, why not move your front sight tunnel a fuzz forward or back to adjust your sight radius and therefore click-value to accommodate your perfect zero?

ROTFLMFAO...


</div></div>

I've got a .040 aperture as, so far, it's a good compromise for me being able to focus on the front sight and have decent target definition too. I struggle with having enough brightness however in all but the brightest light therefore my eyeball is right up on the aperture's hood.
 
Re: LR Tip

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Remember, I'm using irons, post front and .042 rear aperture. The click value is indeed right-on at 1/4 and for any known velocity the sights can track accurately to distance. But, once at distance a 1/4 minute click, for me ends up being more like a half minute of movement since I cannot physically hold to the quarter. Just for grins and giggles one day I set out an MR-31 at 100 to see from the prone sling supported position if I could get a pinwheel x zero. BTW, my Service Rifle is an AR based one, and I'm shooting 80 grain Bergers. At any rate, after 5 rounds, I noticed I had a group center just a 1/4 minute left off the X, so I clicked a quarter. To my surprise, I shot the next 5 rounds a quarter to the right of the X. After 20 rounds for record, I had a score of 198 with two distinct groups, one of them to the left of the X and one to the right of the X. The X itself was still hanging on by a thread. Now, if I was not an awesome prone slung shooter, I would have never uncovered this very interesting fact which is how with no magnification, the hold is based more on accepting what you think looks the same in the way of a sight picture rather than what may actually be the same. That's to say understanding or resolving identical holds is not likely. If I could, then I would have knocked out that X is short order. One more bit of minutia, When I go to the firing line believing with perfection through discipline that I will be able to send bullets into the same hole vacated by their predecessors, I am able to hold about a 1/2 minute for a 20 round string of fire with a few lazy shots usually opening things up to blow my 20X clean attempt. Nevertheless one day when I was really sharp I managed a 198 and 17, where 17 rounds appeared in a nice round 1/2 minute group. </div></div>I still don't get how a 1/4 moa click moves you 1/2 moa, but if you are that consistent, there must be something to it.

I wonder if tweaking the load would fix it though?