M118LR Duplicate

[thumper49802]

Heres what im running for a load.

175 SMK
42.0grns Varget
210M primer
FGMM/LCLR/BHM brass
2.800 COAL
Brass is trimmed to 2.015
* All fired out of a M40A3, 1:11.25 Schneider 24"*

Here is a few pictures of the two loads i worked up today.

*all shots were done with all the same procedures*

I also lack a Chronograph.

42.5grns of Varget (what do you guys think?)

42.0grns Varget (Looks like thats the load im going with)

Im guessing since i didnt change my zero at all and the load with 42 grains was dead on, its got to be close to the fps the M118LR i was shooting, right?

Plus this came in the mail for me today.

 

[81sfo]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

good shooting,is that at 100? test it out farther see what it prints?congrats on the load!

 

[thumper49802]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

ya, thats just 100 yrds today. Plan on doing some testing out to 600 by the weekend.

 

[81sfo]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

you using bipods ,sand bags or rest?Ill be trying the same soon for my M40a3, my new a4 woodland stock is drying from bedding with marine tex right now.I havent done up a 175smk load yet, ive found 155 scenar load though.Will work the same load you did tonite see how she likes it?

 

[thumper49802]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

ya it was the bipod and a rolled up fleece beanie

 

[81sfo]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

where did you find the redding dies in stock?

 

[thumper49802]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

midway

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

What kind of brass are you using?

I use Black Hills with a factory setup the load is 45.0 grs pushing at 2710 fps....and it's dead on the money out to 600 with M118LR


BTW - You guys know Russ Haydon has dies/brass in stock don't ya? I saw an entire shelf devoted to berger bullets, quite a few SMK's but not in 175....(Yet as they are on order)...


http://www.shooters-supply.com

 

[Suasponte]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

Picture of my chronograph. 44gr RE15, Hornady Match brass, Winchester WLR Primer, 175SMK, seated to two thousandths off the lands. It shoots 1/2 MOA out of my Savage 10FP.

Can't find my target data for it however.

Below is the same setup with 43gr RE15.

If I find my target Calc info and target data for the 44gr load I will post it! The chrono shown is good!

Terry

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

You cannot tell by the pictures that the 42.5 load was faster than M118LR. You can tell that the gun did not like it as much, but the slight rise on the PoI is entirely from barrel harmonics and not bullet drop at the distances you were working.

What you have narrowed in on is an accuracy node. There should be another one in the 44.0-44.5 range and maby a third one midway between these.

The onlyr way to determine actual velocity is with a chronograph or a number of groups from 600 yards and longer wiht the scope dope fed into a ballistics calculator.

 

[thumper49802]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You cannot tell by the pictures that the 42.5 load was faster than M118LR. You can tell that the gun did not like it as much, but the slight rise on the PoI is entirely from barrel harmonics and not bullet drop at the distances you were working.

What you have narrowed in on is an accuracy node. There should be another one in the 44.0-44.5 range and maby a third one midway between these.

The onlyr way to determine actual velocity is with a chronograph or a number of groups from 600 yards and longer wiht the scope dope fed into a ballistics calculator. </div></div>

didnt say it was faster, it was actually a question i believe.

**Im guessing since i didnt change my zero at all and the load with 42 grains was dead on, its got to be close to the fps the M118LR i was shooting, right?**

Since then i have purchased a chrono.

 

[armydog]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

I keep seeing people using 42.00 and 42.5gr of varget with 175 SMK, according to the sierra manual max is 41.7gr of varget, tell me why would you go beyond safe max charge?

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armydog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I keep seeing people using 42.00 and 42.5gr of varget with 175 SMK, according to the sierra manual max is 41.7gr of varget, tell me why would you go beyond safe max charge?</div></div>

"max charge" in the manuals are a liability thing. Just about every load ive worked has gone over the book max by a hair, as long as you go slow and know what to watch for your good to go

 

[armydog]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

I called Sierra Hot line and they told me that plus the rifle tested is how they came up with the charge weight.

 

[zack-s]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armydog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I keep seeing people using 42.00 and 42.5gr of varget with 175 SMK, according to the sierra manual max is 41.7gr of varget, tell me why would you go beyond safe max charge? </div></div>
Use a few different load manual and get the average max.

 

[18Echo]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armydog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I keep seeing people using 42.00 and 42.5gr of varget with 175 SMK, according to the sierra manual max is 41.7gr of varget, tell me why would you go beyond safe max charge? </div></div>

Thats the lawyers speaking. My load with a 175 SMK is 45.7gr Varget.

 

[alpha6164]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armydog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I keep seeing people using 42.00 and 42.5gr of varget with 175 SMK, according to the sierra manual max is 41.7gr of varget, tell me why would you go beyond safe max charge?</div></div>


Not sure why would Sierra manual would say that. Look at Hodgon which actually is who makes Varget and they show 42.0gr as starting load and 45.0gr as max charge.

 

[noz455sd]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

Has anyone pulled down any m118lr to weight the charge in it? I it wouldn't matter to much I guess because alot of people feel they use a custom powder right?

 

[armydog]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

Thanks I don't have a Hodgon manual just the Sierra but I will use that info to go a little higher.

 

[wyobill]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

alliants web site used to claim it was a certain charge of re15 but they have taken it down.I checked an 05 and 07 lot of m118lr and found 43.5 grs of what appeared to be re15.The two lots i have chronoed were just over 2600 fps from a 20" ar,i cant recall the exact velocity from my 24" bolt gun but it was mid 2600s.

 

[Woodlanddude]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

Why need to exactly clone it. M-118 LR was loaded with RE-15. Its velocity varied greatly from high to low temps. For me it was about 2fps/deg F.(this can change lot to lot I have noticed ) They changed the load to a 4064 powder with "special" coatings we can't get. I have very closely matched velocity at standard temp. 59deg F and moved on using 8208xbr. I never have to flip DA charts to match trajectory now. If you wanted to clone it to match velocity throughout the temperature range you encounter you would need m-118 lr brass and thier powder. H-4895, Varget, and 8208xbr give you better results via temperature stability. 8208 meters as well as anything else I have seen. IMHO and YMMV.

 

[tomcatfan]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armydog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I keep seeing people using 42.00 and 42.5gr of varget with 175 SMK, according to the sierra manual max is 41.7gr of varget, tell me why would you go beyond safe max charge? </div></div>

I thought the same thing until I went up to 44 gr of Varget pushing a 175SMK out of my stick with no pressure signs. In reading a lot of posts in this forum, I found that lawyers are writing these manuals and not the people who know what they talk about. Just start at thier starting loads and work your way up/down as you see fit. Just pay attention to pressure signs.

 

[The Lawn Ranger]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

Find someone with a chronograph, otherwise you are guessing.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thumper49802</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Heres what im running for a load.

175 SMK
42.0grns Varget
210M primer
FGMM/LCLR/BHM brass
2.800 COAL
Brass is trimmed to 2.015
* All fired out of a M40A3, 1:11.25 Schneider 24"*

Here is a few pictures of the two loads i worked up today.

*all shots were done with all the same procedures*

I also lack a Chronograph.

42.5grns of Varget (what do you guys think?)

42.0grns Varget (Looks like thats the load im going with)

Im guessing since i didnt change my zero at all and the load with 42 grains was dead on, its got to be close to the fps the M118LR i was shooting, right?

Plus this came in the mail for me today.

</div></div>

 

[colt933]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

So I got some 7.62x51 FGMM 175 SMK ammo from Palmetto State Armory. I figure this is as close to M118LR that I will be able to get. This is not .308Win. It says 7.62x51 on the box.

I measured and disassembled one round and found 43.8 gr of a small, gray, extruded powder - definitely not Varget, but I don't have any RL15 to compare it with. It's not 4350, 4064, or 4895. The bullet was crimped in place and the outside neck diameter was .001" less than my typical .308 load. The pulled bullet measured .306" inside the crimped in groove - not a cannelure.

I have duplicated this load with LC Match brass, 42.8gr Varget (worked up to match velocity), pulled 175 SMKs from hi-tech, and CCI large rifle primers. Seated to 2.8~2.81" with a .001 crimp via Lee Factory Crimp die.

Velocity averages 2500fps out of 18" Noveske N6 barrel and is more consistent than the FGMM load. Accuracy is about 3/4MOA 5 shots at 100 yards with Noveske barrel. FGMM measured 2460-2550 from same barrel. Temperature was mid 50s, 400'ASL, 60%+ humidity.

I'm happy - I have tons of old once-fired LC Match brass, plenty of varget, primers, and pulled 175SMKs. This is a cheap, great load.

ETA: LC Match not LR, it was 43.8 in disassembled FGMM not 42.8

0.82" 5 shot group 100 yards 18" Noveske N6

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

With a factory tube and chamber I ran 45.0 of Varget.
Fed 210M - and it ran the exact speed by chrono.

2.810.

Exact clone. I did this for a reason as i have a case of M118LR and wanted the same dope on the scope.

 

[Sapper524]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

I pulled 10 M118LR apart the other day and the charges were all 43.6 - 43.8 and the bullets were all 175g spot on. Im gonna take the other 10 out to the range and chrony them next trip. Ill post up the results, you guys want numbers out of a 20 inch or 24 inch tube?

 

[jetmd]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

Curios as to the comment on the change to 4064, as I work at the Lake City factory several times each year, and as of about 15 days ago they still used RE-15 supplied by Saint Marks powder out of Florida?

If you can expound on this please do so.

Thanks!

 

[Woodlanddude]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

There is a post in the exterior ballistics section about m-118lr that is 8 pages long. At one point someone posted what appeared to be a FOIA obtained spec sheet showing the load with a modified 4064 powder with flash and temperature resistant coating. Previous to that Re-15 was known to be utilized. It would be interesting to know that Re-15 is still being utilized. Maybe there are multiple powders approved for use, or that was an experimental deal?

 

[jetmd]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

Thanks for the clarification.

I have been at the factory off and on for the past 3 years and during that time all of the powder kegs I have seen used for M118LR have been supply by Saint Marks and have been RE-15. Sorry I can not provide pictures of the kegs as most of you know cameras of any type are strictly forbidden at the plant, and not worth losing my job over.....

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

What is the MV specification for M118LR shot with an M40A3 or A5 (in other words, with a 24 inch USMC barrel)? Seems like it would be simple to dupe that MV with RE-15 or 4064, which is probably what the factory does using a test barrel to account for variations in powder type and consistency. That's why we see differences in powder mass when a cartridge is opened and the powder measured.

I've got a lot of once-fired M118LR brass and could dupe it with RE-15 in hand, 210 or 210M primers, and some 175SMKs.

 

[Woodlanddude]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

Thanks for the info. jet.

I had two problems with reloader that made me look elsewhere.

1) Temperature change caused too much change in velocity for my taste. I had to flip 2 DA charts(1k feet) from actual for every 30deg change from standard temp.(59deg F)

2) Lot to lot was rumored to be consistant, but was anything but that for me. I had velocity variations that required up to over a grain extra/less of powder to get the same velocities. I would say I have shot 4 lots and none were the same, and required tinkering to get the same velocity.

My load did match velocity out of my 5R milspec(2635fps) at STP for m-118lr. Only had enough of the real stuff to chrony once, so I can only guess it would have matched performance across all DA's.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

One problem with duplicating M118LR with the same componenets is that you also get some of its quirkiness, like temperature sensitivity. I presume you went with Varget or another Hodgen Extreme powder instead of RL-15.

 

[Woodlanddude]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

Running with 8208XBR (aka Pixie dust) and not looking back. So far, its doing everything as advertised.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: woodlanddude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Running with 8208XBR (aka Pixie dust) and not looking back. So far, its doing everything as advertised. </div></div>
Have you posted your load recipe elsewhere on SH? I know there was a long thread about the "new FGMM/M118LR" powder, but that turned out to be 4064 I think.

If you haven't posted it elsewhere, there are probably more than a few people interested in your experience, especially if it shoots very well.

 

[Woodlanddude]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

The load almost perfectly tracked the published load data, which is a first for me. I posted it under the"new m-118LR" thread, but here it is:

" It(IMR 8208 XBR) shoots a 175gr SMK @ 2660fps at 42.5gr out of my 24" 5R Milspec, and 2600fps with just 42.0. Bugholes(.25-.35 in most groups, a few better/worse by a tenth or so.-for a stock gun, I'll take it!) at the FGGM velocity and still about .75" 5 shot group with the higher charge. "
"Cases were Win 2x fired, 210M primers. OAL=2.815"

I have settled on 42.3 at about 2640fps for my final load, matching M-118 velocity and just happens to be in the upper middle of the OCW.
I now use the same DA chart for any temperature, and don't adjust for velocity change.

*I have since also tried it in Fed gold match cases and it performed close enough to not make a noticable difference at 1100yds.* Follow ALL recomended directions in your load manual and start 10% lower than max listed charge. This load was safe in MY rifle only. ES was around 20, SD was <15 though.

*(using a powder measure to dump charges has not changed this noticibly, measured variations have been +/- 0.2 gr. I will be trying to load on my LNL-AP to see if I can get away with sub .5" groups. If so;

)*

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

Thanks for jump starting my morning, Mr. Johnson!! I'll be standing by for future developments.

 

[The Lawn Ranger]

Re: M118LR Duplicate

What kind of speeds are you getting from this? What is your barrel length?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With a factory tube and chamber I ran 45.0 of Varget.
Fed 210M - and it ran the exact speed by chrono.

2.810.

Exact clone. I did this for a reason as i have a case of M118LR and wanted the same dope on the scope.</div></div>