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Suppressors Machine guns before 86 ?

Z

Zevdogs

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 5, 2010
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Utah
#1
Just on gun broker looking at the prices on lighting links and DAIS... Holy crap
Between 84 and 86 was the process like making a suppressor is now ?
Before 84 was their any laws federally ?
 
#5
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

Prior you could buy HK conversion sears, M16's, etc. for under $5-600 a pop. I was offered 25 HK sears for $175 a pop back then only could come up with enough cash in those days for a few so price went up to $250 each. You could buy all the Mac 10's you wanted NIB for $225. There are even a few GE miniguns that are transferable out there. So if you have the $$$$$$$$$$ you can still own one, then you have to feed it!
 
#7
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bondoscustomz1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1 Question, if I found a M16 brought back from Vietnam that is full auto and not registered,can it be legally obtained and registered? </div></div>
If I found it, I would loose it as fast as I found it. Your answer is no. Now sit and wait for the knock on your door.
 
#8
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mstennes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bondoscustomz1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1 Question, if I found a M16 brought back from Vietnam that is full auto and not registered,can it be legally obtained and registered? </div></div>
If I found it, I would loose it as fast as I found it. Your answer is no. Now sit and wait for the knock on your door. </div></div>

Damn straight, loose it quickly, VERY quickly.
 
#9
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bondoscustomz1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1 Question, if I found a M16 brought back from Vietnam that is full auto and not registered,can it be legally obtained and registered? </div></div>


Strip the parts and destroy the receiver.
 
#10
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bondoscustomz1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1 Question, if I found a M16 brought back from Vietnam that is full auto and not registered,can it be legally obtained and registered?</div></div>

call this # 304-616-4500,tell them what you have and that your keeping it in a safe place.
 
#11
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bondoscustomz1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1 Question, if I found a M16 brought back from Vietnam that is full auto and not registered,can it be legally obtained and registered? </div></div>

Gun can't under current law, but the owner could be........with a number in a Federal pen. Leave it or turn in into law enforcement, so it doesn't wind up on the streets.

Good luck

Jerry
 
#12
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

So what happened to MG prices? It seems like all the owners joined a sort of asshole consortium, and decided to price them as high as a modern vehicle...WTF?

Either way, I truely hope Utah passes that "state only" weapons/class 3 law very soon. If its made here, used here, and stays here, the BATFE/congress can suck a big one.
 
#13
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bondoscustomz1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1 Question, if I found a M16 brought back from Vietnam that is full auto and not registered,can it be legally obtained and registered? </div></div>

Keep you mouth shut, keep it hidden, bring it out when SHTF.
 
#14
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alderleet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what happened to MG prices? It seems like all the owners joined a sort of asshole consortium, and decided to price them as high as a modern vehicle...WTF?

Either way, I truely hope Utah passes that "state only" weapons/class 3 law very soon. If its made here, used here, and stays here, the BATFE/congress can suck a big one. </div></div>


Sb11 has been law for the last year and on line 126 it says machine guns are still illegal 

http://le.utah.gov/~2010/bills/sbillint/sb0011.pdf


http://le.utah.gov/~2010/status/sbillsta/sb0011.htm
 
#15
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alderleet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what happened to MG prices? It seems like all the owners joined a sort of asshole consortium, and decided to price them as high as a modern vehicle...WTF?

</div></div>

Supply and demand.
 
#16
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alderleet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what happened to MG prices? It seems like all the owners joined a sort of asshole consortium, and decided to price them as high as a modern vehicle...WTF?

Either way, I truely hope Utah passes that "state only" weapons/class 3 law very soon. If its made here, used here, and stays here, the BATFE/congress can suck a big one. </div></div>

I own MG's and SMG's and I'm not aware of any "asshole consortiums" conspiring to drive up prices. Transferables are a finite quantity, DEMAND sets prices. Forget the "state only" bull shit, only way it's gonna happen is in your dreams.
 
#17
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

Thanks for the input guys, It was just a hypothetical question as I know that someone,somewhere has one or maybe a M2 or even other types. I was asking this to see if it could be done without a lot of trouble. I asked this because the laws were different during and after the 1st, 2nd war and also Vietnam. If they were allowed, by Uncle Sam, to return from war with "trophy's" or with a left behind auto, then how could they be registered? Let's say(hypothetically) my great grandfather brought back a fullauto that was in a closet for umpteen years and we got it in his will, could it be, legally, registered? that was where I was going with the question. Thanks guys.
 
#18
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

Nope...
No new MGs can be added to the NFA registry unless another amnesty period were to be offered.
There was a section in the proposed BATF reform act that addresses your question specifically.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: http://www.opencongress.org</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Allows the transfer, possession, and importation of machineguns for industry testing, training, and film production. </div></div>

Here is some good reading for you:
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-s941/show
http://www.nfatca.org/
 
#19
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

I'll ask this another way
Wear you able to walk in to gun shop in 1979 and buy a full auto ore parts for it, of not what paperwork did you need ?
 
#21
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

I found this article at http://www.ar15.com/content/legal/dias.html

Why wear auto sears treated different than a full auto out of the gun shop

 (BATF Ruling 81-4, 1981-3 ATFB 78). For arcane reasons related to the legal retroactivity of tax matters, however, only autosears manufactured after November 1, 1981, were required to be registered. Thus, under the metaphysics of the National Firearms Act, two identical pieces of steel manufactured a day apart now had two different legal statuses. One was a legally regulated machinegun required to be registered with BATF; the other remained an innocuous 15 piece of steel.

The fact that two physically identical autosears can have a different legal identity has given rise to a very dangerous situation in the Title II firearms community. Possessing an unregistered post-November 1981 autosear is possession of an unregistered machinegun. Possession of a pre-November 1981 autosear is simply possession of a 15 piece of steel unless you also possess an AR-15 with M16 parts. Then you are also in possession of an unregistered machinegun.
 
#22
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zevdogs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I found this article at http://www.ar15.com/content/legal/dias.html

Why wear auto sears treated different than a full auto out of the gun shop

 (BATF Ruling 81-4, 1981-3 ATFB 78). For arcane reasons related to the legal retroactivity of tax matters, however, only autosears manufactured after November 1, 1981, were required to be registered. Thus, under the metaphysics of the National Firearms Act, two identical pieces of steel manufactured a day apart now had two different legal statuses. One was a legally regulated machinegun required to be registered with BATF; the other remained an innocuous 15 piece of steel.

The fact that two physically identical autosears can have a different legal identity has given rise to a very dangerous situation in the Title II firearms community. Possessing an unregistered post-November 1981 autosear is possession of an unregistered machinegun. Possession of a pre-November 1981 autosear is simply possession of a 15 piece of steel unless you also possess an AR-15 with M16 parts. Then you are also in possession of an unregistered machinegun. </div></div>

Problem is no way to tell if pre or post. They can still be had from vendor's that sell in rags like SG New's and sold as "pre". BAD JUJU.
 
#23
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

The majority of people belive NFA like MG's can't be owned by the general public. I see this all the time @ the range when someone will walk up and ask if I'm a cop or fed when I say no just regular Joe 6 pack they usually take a few steps backward then the questions start. Bottom line if your state is on board and most are, and if you can pass the regular 4473 back round check to purchase a handgun from your local gun shop you can legaly own a MG, ANY pre 86, a minigun if you can swing it. Then the question of cost comes up. I tell them they can get into a decent MAC SMG for under 3K. Sometimes if person is cool I will let them run a mag or 2 through whatever I may be shooting that day. I start them in semi to get the feel then load up 10 so if gun does not have a burst mode and let them shoot a few burst's. If competent then let them Rambo a full mag. They ALL walk away smiling and shaking their heads.
 
#24
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bondoscustomz1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1 Question, if I found a M16 brought back from Vietnam that is full auto and not registered,can it be legally obtained and registered? </div></div>

A freind has a demilitarized m16 without the autosear but a hole in the receiver whear it would fit
Lower is engraved as a m16 so it has the full trigger assembly
I've called get some guns and ammo in slc and asked them what the legality of such a firearm is since both of the owners of silencerco work their and they said (qoute as long as he does not have the auto sear in his possession it's fine !
 
#25
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zevdogs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bondoscustomz1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1 Question, if I found a M16 brought back from Vietnam that is full auto and not registered,can it be legally obtained and registered? </div></div>

A freind has a demilitarized m16 without the autosear but a hole in the receiver whear it would fit
Lower is engraved as a m16 so it has the full trigger assembly
I've called get some guns and ammo in slc and asked them what the legality of such a firearm is since both of the owners of silencerco work their and they said (qoute as long as he does not have the auto sear in his possession it's fine ! </div></div>

Better check again. This is insane but BATF consider's that "hole", yes a hole to me a MG on the M16 platform.
 
#26
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

If it was mine ore if I wear to by it I would get a letter from the ATF first.. I've always thought that a drilled lower was a machine gun but thats why I asked silencerco......
Might be like asking red jacket LOL
 
#27
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zevdogs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bondoscustomz1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1 Question, if I found a M16 brought back from Vietnam that is full auto and not registered,can it be legally obtained and registered? </div></div>

A freind has a demilitarized m16 without the autosear but a hole in the receiver whear it would fit
Lower is engraved as a m16 so it has the full trigger assembly
I've called get some guns and ammo in slc and asked them what the legality of such a firearm is since both of the owners of silencerco work their and they said (qoute as long as he does not have the auto sear in his possession it's fine ! </div></div>

AFAIK Dewars (disabled machine guns, bazookas, mortars, etc...) are still required to be registered with ATF. Suggested reading BEFORE PRIVATE PURCHASE of any of these items is the: 1968 Gun Control Act.

Good luck

Jerry
 
#29
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark S</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alderleet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what happened to MG prices? It seems like all the owners joined a sort of asshole consortium, and decided to price them as high as a modern vehicle...WTF?

Either way, I truely hope Utah passes that "state only" weapons/class 3 law very soon. If its made here, used here, and stays here, the BATFE/congress can suck a big one. </div></div>

I own MG's and SMG's and I'm not aware of any "asshole consortiums" conspiring to drive up prices. Transferables are a finite quantity, DEMAND sets prices. Forget the "state only" bull shit, only way it's gonna happen is in your dreams. </div></div>

Thank the Internet for the rise in demand. People who had disposable income found out that they "could" own machine guns, and increased demand.
 
#31
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 737SHARK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Markings don't matter..function does or parts to make it function with more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger </div></div>
Hate to disagree but yes they do. A dealer friend of mine had BATF confiscate a rifle from him and he almost lost his FFL. It was an M1 Carbine that would only fire semi-auto but because the rear of the receiver was stamped "M2" instead of "M1" in a difficult place to see it under the rear sight, it was taken away. There were no "full-auto" parts in the gun... I was there when they discovered it. That was when the BATF agent told me about that.
I wouldn't have thought it would matter either if I hadn't witnessed this myself!

It probably has to do with serial number assignment. Similar to how you can't legally make an AR Pistol out of the lower from an AR Rifle if the original paperwork calls it a rifle.
 
#32
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

In this case, the M2 reciever IS the part in question. M2 carbines came with the select fire parts installed. Removing them does not make it a semi, any more than removing the parts from an M14 make it an M1A.

The right sideplate of an M2HB or 1919 is a machine gun in and of itself, no matter is it is engraved or not.
 
#34
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

Here is some more good reading for you regarding this issue: http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8.pdf

Rule of thumb:
Any AR pattern rifle + any single component that would be considered a full auto part without having a tax stamp for a machine gun that those parts go to = TROUBLE.

Exception being M16 Bolt Carriers:
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/ATF%20M16%20Letter.pdf

All of this is very confusing and contradictory at times.
When in doubt, write a letter to the BATF requesting an opinion.
If they say it is ok, then just be sure to keep a copy of that letter in a safe place.
 
#37
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what I was told by a BATF agent if it has "M16", or any variation there of, factory stamped on it... It's considered a Machine Gun. It doesn't matter how it has been modified. </div></div>

I don't know about that becouse I've seen several semi m16 for sale with out batf stuff like this
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=678&ad=14992854&cat=377&lpid=
 
#38
Re: Machine guns before 86 ?

Zevdogs,

There are two reasons that these "M-16s" are permitted.
1. The BATF has a special category for "Commemorative" type firearms.
(See the C&R FAQ: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html)
2. This receiver has never been a machine gun and is registered with the BATF as a semi-automatic firearm.
(The model designation "M-16" is for historical purposes.)
It also is not able to use a M-16 auto-sear without being drilled and milled.

The American Historical Foundation can be contacted directly if you like.
http://www.ahffirearms.com/index.asp
I'm sure they get this question a lot.
 
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