Sidearms & Scatterguns Magazine orientation?

[IdahoMike]

Question for experienced pistol competitors.

Is there a way to specifically orient your pistol mags in a holster such as rounds pointing forward or to the rear, or is it just preference? I ask because I had a guy at a prac/tac shoot tell me that rounds pointing forward was the "correct way" to orient your mags. His reasoning behind it was that when you skin a mag you do so by first putting your pointer finger on the front side of the mag, draw, then use your finger as a guide to reload? So I tried it and hate it, it feels like an extra movement in there somewhere. For me it feels much better to palm the mag draw, and come straight up for the reload. Is that the wrong technique, or should I be doing something else all together?

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Magazine orientation?

Where are your spares on your person?

Assuming you have them on the weak side belt - yes, bullet nose forward.

On the chest that means tips face right for me (I am right handed). While some don't advocate the 'beer can' with 30 rnd carbine mag - I like it. That means tips to the rear on the belt and to the right on the chest.

What it comes down to regardless of pistol mag or a carbine mag is what is the most efficient means grabbing fresh mag, and with as few manipulations as possible and with the greatest degree of control insert that mag into well and slam it into a seated position.



Good luck

 

[IdahoMike]

Re: Magazine orientation?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where are your spares on your person?

Assuming you have them on the weak side belt - yes, bullet nose forward.

What it comes down to regardless of pistol mag or a carbine mag is what is the most efficient means grabbing fresh mag, and with as few manipulations as possible and with the greatest degree of control insert that mag into well and slam it into a seated position.

Good luck</div></div>

I wear my spares on the weak side belt. I guess I will have to practice my reloads until it's comfortable.

 

[hs101]

Re: Magazine orientation?

As stated, bullets forward...

That being said, .. Practice, Practice, Practice... A quick reload is a learned, perishable skill.

There are 2 schools of thought on quick reloads as well - 1) A well practiced, no look reload done while moving between positions, and 2) bring the gun and mag up high, directly into your line of sight, and "look" the mag in...

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: Magazine orientation?

Yep, bullets forward, index finger on the front of the mag, gun held high in your line of sight, look the magazine into the mag-well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GsmUzSBaUQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKNSH9tuxY8

 

[layinclose2hell]

Re: Magazine orientation?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where are your spares on your person?

What it comes down to regardless of pistol mag or a carbine mag is what is the most efficient means grabbing fresh mag, and with as <span style="font-weight: bold">few manipulations as possible and with the greatest degree of control</span> insert that mag into well and slam it into a seated position. </div></div>

I have had this issue shooting IDPA and IPSC. It is more comfortable, accurate and I am faster with the bullets facing rearward in my magazine pouches on my support side, but that is just me. I can lift straight out, still have my index finger on the front of the magazine, and rotate my arm to the gun without having to twist my wrist to orient the magazine. I found that I have to add a wrist twist into the reloading process while having the magazine oriented forward, which is one more muscle memory to learn and that can fail under stress while bullets are facing forward. I personally have seen very fast reloads with magazines from any position, and I think it is a personal preference as well as a practiced and learned muscle memory. Repetitive training and relearning my muscle memory would be the only way to break my "bad" habit I guess. Other than that, for my reference, is there really a specific reason the orientation makes a difference if someone has learned and is proficient with another method?

 

[thebolt]

Re: Magazine orientation?

Consistency is the key.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Magazine orientation?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: layinclose2hell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where are your spares on your person?

What it comes down to regardless of pistol mag or a carbine mag is what is the most efficient means grabbing fresh mag, and with as <span style="font-weight: bold">few manipulations as possible and with the greatest degree of control</span> insert that mag into well and slam it into a seated position. </div></div>

I have had this issue shooting IDPA and IPSC. It is more comfortable, accurate and I am faster with the bullets facing rearward in my magazine pouches on my support side, but that is just me. I can lift straight out, still have my index finger on the front of the magazine, and rotate my arm to the gun without having to twist my wrist to orient the magazine. I found that I have to add a wrist twist into the reloading process while having the magazine oriented forward, which is one more muscle memory to learn and that can fail under stress while bullets are facing forward. I personally have seen very fast reloads with magazines from any position, and I think it is a personal preference as well as a practiced and learned muscle memory. Repetitive training and relearning my muscle memory would be the only way to break my "bad" habit I guess. Other than that, for my reference, is there really a specific reason the orientation makes a difference if someone has learned and is proficient with another method? </div></div>

Think about what you're saying.

If your bullets are backwards, how are you going to get your index finger on the front of the magazine without very awkwardly twisting your wrist? Stand in front of the mirror and do it dry.

I think you'll find, as many have, that bullets forward is smoother. You shouldn't need a timer to prove it to yourself, but if you do, buy one and remove all doubt.

There are few things in shooting in which there is only one correct way to do things. This is one of those few things. Bullets backwards is the "wrong" way, and it will be slower for every shooter--I would place my money on it.

Old habits die hard, but practicing out this habit is worth it.

 

[layinclose2hell]

Re: Magazine orientation?

I was not trying for an argument here. I have tried both ways, and I can say that I have to turn my wrist while drawing the loaded mag with the bullets forward, and I do not with them facing rearward. My index placement is the same in both positions to guide the mag into the well, and I actually have to contort my wrist more if the bullets are facing forward. I always sweep my furthest rear placed mag first. I have actually clocked myself, and I am only speaking about myself here, I am much faster doing it with rearward facing mags than forward facing. Not saying there is a right or wrong way, just pointing out there is an extra muscle movement for me if my mags are "right". I am consistent, as well as faster this way. I personally cannot see where this falls into a must do "right" situation, but I have been mistaken before. I have had a timer for quite a while, and have consistently proven, and here is the key word, for me, that I am faster doing it this way, as well as extremely consistent reloading. I do believe that studying and practicing out habits is a great way to change a methodology that has been learned, but speaking for myself, why change what I do not believe is broken? It is not adversely affecting me or my performance, but actually shaving documented time off my reloads.

 

[Hoser]

Re: Magazine orientation?

Bullets forward is the easiest and fastest.

 

[IdahoMike]

Re: Magazine orientation?

Okay, I understand now with rounds pointed forward the reload movement is more of "across the body". I was drawing with noses facing the rear making a movement straight out in front like a reverse karate chop. Thanks for squaring me away in the reload department fellas. Jim thanks for the links and imagery, it makes thing much easier to understand over the web.

 

[pfcustom]

Re: Magazine orientation?

Bullets facing forward, I don't know of any competitors above "C" class that put them any other way.
Index finger at the nose of the top round. TRUST me as I tell my students and first time competitors with our club you will only stick you finger in the magwell before the magazine ONCE in your entire life!!!
I hope this helps and soon you will be in the sub 1.5 sec reload range.

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: Magazine orientation?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bullets facing forward, I don't know of any competitors above "C" class that put them any other way.</div></div>

Never saw a serious competitor do otherwise.

 

[dsink]

Re: Magazine orientation?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bullets facing forward, I don't know of any competitors above "C" class that put them any other way.</div></div>

Never saw a serious competitor do otherwise. </div></div>

+1.

 

[schiaa]

Re: Magazine orientation?

Both ways can work fine. Most people orient their mags bullets facing forwards. I like that because I can put my index finger on the bullet as I move the mag to the mag well.

Rob Pincus, who could fill me full of holes no matter what I try to do, orients his mags bullets facing backwards. The way he explains it, it is more efficient; I think it feels goofy.

Just do what works well for you.

 

[Graham]

Re: Magazine orientation?

One local department here teaches carrying spare pistol magazines with the bullet tips down in a double mag pouch stacked horizontally on the belt. All officers are instructed to carry their mags that way. Every time I talk to their firearms instructors I ask them why. I have yet to receive a coherent explanation based on any accepted or acceptable reloading technique. Go figure.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Magazine orientation?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One local department here teaches carrying spare pistol magazines with the bullet tips down in a double mag pouch stacked horizontally on the belt. All officers are instructed to carry their mags that way. Every time I talk to their firearms instructors I ask them why. I have yet to receive a coherent explanation based on any accepted or acceptable reloading technique. Go figure. </div></div>

yet everyone here is explaining that it's the most natural motion that that no competitor would carry any other way....

 

[Graham]

Re: Magazine orientation?

The department is doing it wrong. Because they're teaching it wrong. Because they've always done it that way.

Then again, I've always said that one should never use his best steel to make nails.

 

[RyanScott]

Re: Magazine orientation?

I've never known someone who knew a damn thing about pistol shooting and carried mags with the bullet facing his back. Now, with a carbine lots of smart people face the bullets in either direction. But now with the pistol.

 

[KM375]

Re: Magazine orientation?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One local department here teaches carrying spare pistol magazines with the bullet tips down in a double mag pouch stacked horizontally on the belt. All officers are instructed to carry their mags that way. Every time I talk to their firearms instructors I ask them why. I have yet to receive a coherent explanation based on any accepted or acceptable reloading technique. Go figure. </div></div>

Ask a shooter carrying like this to go to the prone with his/her sidearm and try to get a magazine out of the pouches. The carrying of magazines has to work in the most efficient manner to get bullets in the gun as quickly as possible.

 

[schiaa]

Re: Magazine orientation?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never known someone who knew a damn thing about pistol shooting and carried mags with the bullet facing his back. Now, with a carbine lots of smart people face the bullets in either direction. But now with the pistol. </div></div>

Have you trained with Rob Pincus?

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: Magazine orientation?

yup, as stated rounds forward (to the right if right handed) and use your index finger to guide the mag into the well, keep the pistol in your "work space" at eye level. Travis is a beast and this vid shows it slowed down

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Hgdq1FBYTUE"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Hgdq1FBYTUE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: Magazine orientation?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: layinclose2hell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where are your spares on your person?

What it comes down to regardless of pistol mag or a carbine mag is what is the most efficient means grabbing fresh mag, and with as <span style="font-weight: bold">few manipulations as possible and with the greatest degree of control</span> insert that mag into well and slam it into a seated position. </div></div>

I have had this issue shooting IDPA and IPSC. It is more comfortable, accurate and I am faster with the bullets facing rearward in my magazine pouches on my support side, but that is just me. I can lift straight out, still have my index finger on the front of the magazine, and rotate my arm to the gun without having to twist my wrist to orient the magazine. <span style="font-weight: bold">I found that I have to add a wrist twist into the reloading process while having the magazine oriented forward, which is <span style="text-decoration: underline">one more muscle memory to learn and that can fail under stress </span>while bullets are facing forward. </span> I personally have seen very fast reloads with magazines from any position, and I think it is a personal preference as well as a practiced and learned muscle memory. Repetitive training and relearning my muscle memory would be the only way to break my "bad" habit I guess. Other than that, for my reference, is there really a specific reason the orientation makes a difference if someone has learned and is proficient with another method? </div></div>

You're going to fail to turn your wrist "under stress"? Seriously?

Dude, where did you hear that? Whoever fed you that line of BS is someone to avoid taking advice from.

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: Magazine orientation?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrLowandSlow</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never known someone who knew a damn thing about pistol shooting and carried mags with the bullet facing his back. Now, with a carbine lots of smart people face the bullets in either direction. But now with the pistol. </div></div>

Have you trained with Rob Pincus?</div></div>

I would hardly cite Pincus as someone who "knows a damn thing about pistol shooting". Dude was a small town cop for a couple years, never was in a single shooting or gunfight, and probably isn't even an A-Class IPSC shooter. Why would you want to take your cues from him?

Just because his name is printed in magazine articles from time to time, doesn't mean he's an expert on the subject.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Magazine orientation?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Just because his name is printed in magazine articles from time to time, doesn't mean he's an expert on the subject. </div></div>

Put Ayoob in that category as well.

I think this thread has also separated those who understand competitive shooting from those who don't.

There are few things in shooting where there's only one way to do it. This is among them.

 

[schiaa]

Re: Magazine orientation?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrLowandSlow</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never known someone who knew a damn thing about pistol shooting and carried mags with the bullet facing his back. Now, with a carbine lots of smart people face the bullets in either direction. But now with the pistol. </div></div>

Have you trained with Rob Pincus?</div></div>

I would hardly cite Pincus as someone who "knows a damn thing about pistol shooting". Dude was a small town cop for a couple years, never was in a single shooting or gunfight, and probably isn't even an A-Class IPSC shooter. Why would you want to take your cues from him?

Just because his name is printed in magazine articles from time to time, doesn't mean he's an expert on the subject. </div></div>

Facepalm.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Magazine orientation?

One of the best things I heard Super Dave say was - "there isn't necessarily a right and a wrong way, but there are definitely some things that are more efficient".

Lots of little efficiencies = speed + less chance of skrewin' the pooch.

Makes sense when the goal is to stay ahead of the curve.... be proactive, instead of reactive and all that.



If one is willing to work on their chops for 5 minutes a day for one year with both a blaster and a carbine.....never fumble f*ck a reload again....


Good luck

 

[Jim_D303]

Re: Magazine orientation?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrLowandSlow</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrLowandSlow</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never known someone who knew a damn thing about pistol shooting and carried mags with the bullet facing his back. Now, with a carbine lots of smart people face the bullets in either direction. But now with the pistol. </div></div>

Have you trained with Rob Pincus?</div></div>

I would hardly cite Pincus as someone who "knows a damn thing about pistol shooting". Dude was a small town cop for a couple years, never was in a single shooting or gunfight, and probably isn't even an A-Class IPSC shooter. Why would you want to take your cues from him?

Just because his name is printed in magazine articles from time to time, doesn't mean he's an expert on the subject. </div></div>

Facepalm. </div></div>

So, what is it exactly that he's done with a gun that makes him an "expert" on the subject?

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: Magazine orientation?

I go about the question about my mags orientation with the phrase "dont ask dont tell" cause I mean hell i didnt know a magazine could be gay, and if it is theres no way I'd use it, too close to my weener on the belt and gripping it all rapid like might turn it on, so its better left alone and not known

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: Magazine orientation?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One local department here teaches carrying spare pistol magazines with the bullet tips down in a double mag pouch stacked horizontally on the belt. All officers are instructed to carry their mags that way. Every time I talk to their firearms instructors I ask them why. I have yet to receive a coherent explanation based on any accepted or acceptable reloading technique. Go figure. </div></div>

yet everyone here is explaining that it's the most natural motion that that no competitor would carry any other way.... </div></div>

Who, exactly? Most are advocating vertical mags, bullets forward.

In more than 25 years the only competitors I've seen carry mags horizontal were cops using duty rigs.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Magazine orientation?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One local department here teaches carrying spare pistol magazines with the bullet tips down in a double mag pouch stacked horizontally on the belt. All officers are instructed to carry their mags that way. Every time I talk to their firearms instructors I ask them why. I have yet to receive a coherent explanation based on any accepted or acceptable reloading technique. Go figure. </div></div>

yet everyone here is explaining that it's the most natural motion that that no competitor would carry any other way.... </div></div>

Who, exactly? Most are advocating vertical mags, bullets forward.

In more than 25 years the only competitors I've seen carry mags horizontal were cops using duty rigs. </div></div>

Sorry, I was confused thinking you meant that the cartridges were horizontal and the mags vertical.

I agree with you that carrying mags that way makes little sense.

Police officers do have other considerations, however, specifically that their mags have to be retained while doing all sorts of things that we would never do as competitors, like running around, jumping fences, etc.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Magazine orientation?

hes correct to say that you are suppose to put your index finger on the bullet in the mag. it does help you find the magwell. i put my spare mags on my left side upside down bullets facing forward. the ideal location is in the front oriented the same way (upside down bullets pointing toward your centerline) on your support side. but i cant sit down comfortably with them there so i run them on my hip area.

 

[schiaa]

Re: Magazine orientation?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So, what is it exactly that he's done with a gun that makes him an "expert" on the subject? </div></div>

Lets not shift this thread away from magazine orientation. I posted an AAR in the Basic Marksmanship forum.

 

[marduk185]

Re: Magazine orientation?

pros go bullets to midline...but whatever you do, do it the same every time.

 

[steelsnob47]

dont assume my mags orientation...it identifies as a meat popsicle

 

[Strykervet]

Mags horizontal? No way. Weak side and pointing back?

Why not carry 'em upside down? Hell, it makes more sense.

 

[...]

Question for experienced pistol competitors.

Is there a way to specifically orient your pistol mags in a holster such as rounds pointing forward or to the rear, or is it just preference? I ask because I had a guy at a prac/tac shoot tell me that rounds pointing forward was the "correct way" to orient your mags. His reasoning behind it was that when you skin a mag you do so by first putting your pointer finger on the front side of the mag, draw, then use your finger as a guide to reload? So I tried it and hate it, it feels like an extra movement in there somewhere. For me it feels much better to palm the mag draw, and come straight up for the reload. Is that the wrong technique, or should I be doing something else all together?

yes, it is all personal preference.....they guy telling to the "correct" way is a fucking moron.

if my reloads are on my belt @ 9:00, i run them bullets down, and facing back

if my reloads are on plate carrier on my chest, i run them bullets down facing right.

run what works for you......it doesnt hurt to listen to advice and try different setups......but anyone telling you a "correct" way to do things is an inexperienced jackass who learned all he knows from youtube "operators"