Magpul MBUS sites at 200 yards.

[Monmouth]

I shoot my .223 AR with only Magpul MBUS flip sites. My targets are 10" steel plates ranging from 100 yards out to 200 yards. I can consistently hit 100 yard plates (I shoot off hand/standing or kneeling on one knee) but when I shoot for 200 yards, not so good.

When I line up the front site, the "post" (please forgive me if my terminology is incorrect, I'm new and learning fast) completely covers the 10" steel plate. Is this normal? When I shoot, should I trust that I'm on target due to repetition? Is my front site's post too thick?

Also, my shots on a target at 200 yards are not consistent groups (this is due to my inexperience) and are in a 6-8" open area. I'm shooting Federal .223 55 grain.

 

[Nachtadler]

Re: Magpul MBUS sites at 200 yards.

How far apart are your front and rear sight? If you can move the front one out farther or the rear one back more the front sight post will appear smaller and will subtend a smaller portion of your targets. That'll help you with seeing the target. As for getting better just practice all the fundamentals correctly. Try to find someone else locally who can help. That works out way better than reading about the techniques on the internet.

 

[Monmouth]

Re: Magpul MBUS sites at 200 yards.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nachtadler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How far apart are your front and rear sight? If you can move the front one out farther or the rear one back more the front sight post will appear smaller and will subtend a smaller portion of your targets. That'll help you with seeing the target. As for getting better just practice all the fundamentals correctly. Try to find someone else locally who can help. That works out way better than reading about the techniques on the internet. </div></div>

I'm using the following:
- Yankee Hill Carbine forearm 7.2"
- Regular upper receiver
- 16" barrel

Makes sense to switch out to longer forearm and there's a NRA high power group that shoots at my range.

 

[Togeneral99]

Re: Magpul MBUS sites at 200 yards.

You could adjust your sights so that the sight picture would require a 6 o'clock hold instead of a dead on hold and then the post would never cover the target

 

[Izot]

Re: Magpul MBUS sites at 200 yards.

Easiest thing to do would be shooting paper, if thats an option, to check where your rounds are impacting at 100 then 200. Also if the rear sight apature is not adjustable for elevation then the rounds will not be impacting at the same point when changing yardage.
As Togeneral99 suggested. With the top of the front sight post splitting the target vertcally you should be getting center mass hits. This way you can see half the target.

 

[Monmouth]

Re: Magpul MBUS sites at 200 yards.

Thank you for the advice. If I use the 6 O'clock hold, is this setup for a center hit at 100 yards aka 100 yard zero? Then when I shoot for 200 yards, I shold only have to cover "half" the 10" steel target?

 

[Glocksteady]

Re: Magpul MBUS sites at 200 yards.

It sounds like your irons are set for a 100 yd zero so you are having to hold high (covering your target) at 200 yards.

I zero at 200 yds and aim using a dead on hold, Anything from 25-235 I will hit within 2 inches of where I'm aiming. High inside of 200 due to the arc of the path of the bullet. Low outside of 200 as the bullet starts to drop from it's zero range.

Now add 1 MOA variance from the rifle into the mix. At 100 yds, my hit should be 1.7 high but with the rifle variance of 1 MOA, I could be .7 high or 2.7 high...good enough for 10" steal at 100. At 200 (zero), there is no drop. 1 MOA rifle variance, I could be 2" low or high, still good enough for 10" steal.

My M4 hates 55 grainers. Try something heavier. My friend even bought a BDC scope for 55s until he too discovered that the 62gr were way more accurate out of his M4.

I now shoot 75 gr 5.56. Not quite as accurate as the 77 gr SMK .223, but the 75 5.56 has a little more punch. Accurate enough out to 200 for me. My M4 is not for precision as much as quick, effective hits. My .308 is used for the more precise shots and longer ranges.

If you're banging steal with irons. Zero for 200 and try heavier rounds. Throw an Aimpoint on it and it's like cheating for an old guy with me and crappy eyesight. . I absolutely love a red dot sight.

 

[Glocksteady]

Re: Magpul MBUS sites at 200 yards.

BTW. To set your irons from 100 to a 200 yd zero, you will have to turn your front sight post to the right (clockwise). How many clicks can vary by manufacturer. Just check and then confirm at the range. A front sight tool is only about $10 and makes it very fast and easy.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Magpul MBUS sites at 200 yards.

OP,

First, for versatility galore, replace your rear sight for something like a Matech BUIS. It's a BDC type, which allows for both elevation and windage to be taken hastily from the sight having earlier been adjusted for a 300 meter BSZ.

Regarding using a center of mass hold on a target: with standard width post on an M16 to not cover the target you would need a bullseye about 19 inches in diameter at 175 meters. Since the M4's sight radius is so much shorter than an M16 yet its post width is the same as an M16's you may still have trouble recognizing exact center of mass even with a 19 inch target unless it's an "e" type. This is where picture memory, and introducing the sight to the target coming into sight picture from left or right side of target can help. BTW, I do not recomend reducing the diameter of the front sight since you will loose its 175 meter range finding capability when shooting at "E" type targets.

Now, if you want match grade performance from your M4 you could reduce the aperture size of the sight by fitting a valve into the existing aperture. This will sharpen the front sight as well as give you a more defined target.

One more thing, changing your hold from center of mass to 6 o'clock will only work at X distance, or when using proportional targets, like NRA HP targets; yet, this is not practical for the sort of target engagements you have described for a multitude of reasons, foremost being the need to adjust elevation at the rear sight for every distance you intend to shoot. With a 300 meter BSZ on your M4, using a center of mass hold, you can engage "E" targets out to about 350 meters; and, if you replace your current sight for a Matech, you can use that sight's BDC feature to engage targets beyond the BSZ capability.

 

[Monmouth]

Re: Magpul MBUS sites at 200 yards.

After reading and the replies to my post, I may have to swap out my rear sight.

Sterling, could you please explain why I shouldn't use a 6 Oclock hold for my type of shooting. Should I keep my current "center mass hit"?

Lastly, I just ordered a scope (swfa ss10x42 with the Burris QD mount) to learn iron work as well as magnification work.

Happy Holidays.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Magpul MBUS sites at 200 yards.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Monmouth</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After reading and the replies to my post, I may have to swap out my rear sight.

Sterling, could you please explain why I shouldn't use a 6 Oclock hold for my type of shooting. Should I keep my current "center mass hit"?

Lastly, I just ordered a scope (swfa ss10x42 with the Burris QD mount) to learn iron work as well as magnification work.

Happy Holidays.</div></div>



Right now, entertaining a 6 o'clock hold will require some effort, since an adjustment of the front sight, for every newly presented target height and/or distance, will be required for a center hit. This is impractical. Plus, your front sight has a very course adjustment value, about 1 3/4 minutes per click, this makes getting to center at any distance for any target height somewhat difficult.

Your BUIS is most versatile on your sort of rifle when adjusted for a BSZ set at 300 meters. With such zero, using a center of mass hold, the bullet path and line of sight will intersect at 25 and 300 meters. The maximum ordinate will be 7 to 10 inches high at 150 meters. At 350 meter you'll be 10 inches low, and, at 400 meters, about 20 inches low. With this in mind, you can see, when shooting at an "E" size target, which is compatible with your rifle/sights, you can get good hits out to 400 meters, or thereabouts, with a center of mass hold. Changing the rear sight for a Matech you can also adjust for KD target engagements to 600 meters, as well as make on the fly adjustment from a 300 meter zero to a 200 meter zero. Making this adjustment reduces the maximum ordinate to not much more than an inch at 100 meters.

Here's what I would do, drop your 10 inch plates and shoot at "E" type targets, or, if marksmanship with irons is what you are attempting to develop, shoot the MR-31 at 100 yard distance with your sight adjusted for center hit from a 6 o'clock hold. This sort of practice will build motor and picture memory, and progress can be noted, since the MR-31 is a scorable target. Also, since a 300 meter zero will place your bullets about 3 to 4 inches high at 100 yards, you may be able to retain your 300 meter zero when shooting the MR-31 target which is about 6.2 inches in diameter.

One more thing, remember, with irons you are using picture memory to get good hits, while with a scope you are using resolution for good hits. Do not expect resolution from irons, you must have a target which you can see well enough to understand when the sight picture is what you want. This does not mean you can't shoot some little biddy groups, but it does mean you need something bigger to aim at than what would be required when shooting with a magnified optic. On the other hand, while some scopes can discern a golf ball at 600 meters that in and of itself does not assure a hit, since the target is only about a 1/4 minute at such distance, and very few shooters have the skill and equipment to hit such a target no matter the scope power when there's just a hint of wind.

BTW, most of my shooting today is at 1000 yards with a match conditioned commercial equivalent of the M16A2 Service Rifle. This rifle has "as issued" iron sights but with 1/4 minute value for both elevation and windage from rear sight. My average score is 186 so I'm putting most of my shots inside 20 inches of the 44 inch bullseye. I could clean such a target using a match aperture sight on a rifle shooting a higher BC bullet; but, nevertheless, I find it's remarkable what is possible with a post front sight just centered in the rear aperture and placed constantly on target through development of picture memory.

 

[Woj8541]

You could adjust your sights so that the sight picture would require a 6 o'clock hold instead of a dead on hold and then the post would never cover the target

This is an excellent suggestion, and its typically referred to as "line of white". For iron sight shooters this type of zero allows the shooter to maintain a solid POA at any target, provided of course that the rear sight is adjustable for elevation, thus allowing the shooter to maintain a consistent POA no matter the distance. Line of white shooting is exactly that; when you zero the sights make sure there is a line of white between the front sight post and the 6 o'clock position of the intended target. Adjust the sights to hit the center of the target with the line of white 6 o'clock hold.

With your MBUS sights, the compensation for elevation is most easily accomplished by zeroing at 50/200 yards. By zeroing at 50 yards you'll mimic the same POI as you would at 200 yards. (It's the whole 1st LOS crossing and 2nd LOS crossing thing, be careful though, it's considered by some as super secret squirrel stuff and if talked about bad men in black suits and sunglasses will knock on your door...). The 50/200 yard zero is a great zero for man-sized targets. It allows a POA/POI at 50 and 200 yards, and depending on your load and velocity, will put you about 1.5" tall at 100 and about 8" low at 300. Easy holds, especially if you're line of white. (At 300 with line of white 6 o'clock hold in the abdomen you'll hit center, so with a throat hold at 300 you'll achieve the desired center of mass torso hit.)

Hope this helps.

 

[Ledzep]

I always set irons so that my POI is directly on top of and in the middle of the front sight post, maybe 1 MOA above the post. Not quite a 6 o'clock hold, but not "behind" the post, either.

I don't like true 6 o'clock zeroes because it's dependent on relative target/bullseye size. For example, if I zero 6 o'clock on a 6 MOA circle, then shoot 6 o'clock a 3 MOA circle, I will either hit the top of the circle, or will have to offset low an imaginary 1.5 MOA. If I don't know the angular size of the target (hunting, UKD), it's a guessing game.