Gunsmithing Manners stocks...what's the deal?

[steelcomp]

OK...I gotta vent. I ordered a T4a last Nov 3rd for a custom inlet for a Sako M995 action, Bartlein #9. Was told 10-12 wks.

12/15 was told the stock was ready for bottom metal, and to please ship it and the original stock to them.

1/26 was told sorry for the delay... Tom was at Shot Show, and would have the stock done in two weeks

1/28 received invoice for stock...figured it must be ready.

Two weeks...nothing.

2/12 Called to check on the progress...was told Tom has everything done except for the bottom metal cut out, going to try to get it done this weekend.

2/25...sent email asking about progress...answer..."Tom said he's going to finish your stock Saturday so it'll go out next week"

Next week...nothing.

3/5 "Tom had a family emergency, I'll have him call you."

Nothing.

Several phone calls nad messages left over the next several days later, I finally get a call back on 3/16 from Manners (not Tom) and was told "this is a custom inlet that only Tom can do, and he's really backed up...it'll probably be about four more weeks"

I sure couldn't run my business like that. I'm not at all happy about this.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

Did you relay this to Tom prior to posting it?

 

[steelcomp]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

Tom's had plenty of opportunities to return my calls, return my messages, or just do what I'm told he's going to do.
Besides, I'm just venting. Not expecting anything. Not blaming anyone. Just very annoyed.

 

[257speed]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

Tom has always been great and I can tell you first hand he is a stand up guy. I would have waited until I talked to him before posting this. You will most likely not find allies against him here. Life happens and if you were told there was an emergency, I have no doubt there was.

 

[chadg]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

Steelcomp,tom is a good guy,I grant you if he says he is swamped he is.....
When you get the stock you will be very pleased with it.....Remember patience is a virtue
Good things come to those who wait.......

 

[GasLight]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

Tom has proven over and over that he is GTG. Though I understand the frustrations over wait times. I have been told the same thing lately, and am waiting on a stock currently also. I am not too worried about it though, and haven't called to ask them about it. If Tom has a family emergency, I wish him the best, and hope that they can reconsile your hard feelings and restore your faith in their company. As stated above, he/Manners have a great reputation in this industry, so you will likely not find too many willing to partake in the negative side of this. If you absolutely can't wait any longer, you could ask for a refund, or simply cancel your order and not pay, but other than that, patience will eventually pay off

 

[steelcomp]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

I understand everything being said. I'm sure Tom is GTG, and I will continue to wait. I guess you can say my level of disappointment and frustration is only testimony to what I'm looking forward to with his product. Thinking I was a phone call away from delivery, only to be told another four weeks was really a let down. I'm not accustom to these kinds of business practices being acceptabble or even understandable, but it seems common in this industry. If that's the case, so be it. It is what it is. I really mean no trouble and I'm not looking for sympathy...like I said, just venting.
ETA: Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[USMCj]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

In a perfect world, you would have had you stock in 10-12 weeks. But Im sure you know such a world does not exist. I feel the same way when someone keeps giving me due dates that come and go over and over, but ship happens. Shot show delayed a lot of shit for a lot of people. Just the way it is in this industry. Not saying its right, but thats how it is.

 

[Cegorach]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In a perfect world, you would have had you stock in 10-12 weeks. But Im sure you know such a world does not exist. I feel the same way when someone keeps giving me due dates that come and go over and over, but ship happens. <span style="font-weight: bold">Shot show delayed a lot of shit for a lot of people.</span> Just the way it is in this industy. Not saying its right, but thats how it is. </div></div>

+1

 

[aussiearmourer]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

The company I work for distributes Manners in Australia and New Zealand, and I can say in my experience Tom is a pleasure to work with and a very nice guy. If we ever had hold ups, I would know it was for reasons completely out of Tom's control.
If he said you will get the stock, you will, even if it is a bit late. It will be worth the wait!!

 

[JSTARSZ]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

Coming on here and talking about Manners is about the same as GAP - you will get all kind of they are good people which we all know is true; however, what gets people all riled up is UNMET promises. If you can't do it tell me and I will quit calling and asking. Be some what realistic in saying what can and CANNOT be done. If they would have told him earlier that it would be another four weeks he would have been disappointed but he would have put that in his head - OK, four more weeks.

I just hate being promised something and then get stringed along with weak excuses. It ticks me off. So, I understand the rant

I would still have no problem buying a Manner's Stock - it is an awesome piece of technology. This rant doesn't change that.

 

[tmanners]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand everything being said. I'm sure Tom is GTG, and I will continue to wait. I guess you can say my level of disappointment and frustration is only testimony to what I'm looking forward to with his product. Thinking I was a phone call away from delivery, only to be told another four weeks was really a let down. I'm not accustom to these kinds of business practices being acceptabble or even understandable, but it seems common in this industry. If that's the case, so be it. It is what it is. I really mean no trouble and I'm not looking for sympathy...like I said, just venting.
ETA: Thanks for the encouragement. </div></div>Hi Scott, I will take full blame for the bad communication with you, I think that I took the order myself. Right now we are about 19 weeks on the order. On a adjustable cheek stock like the mcs-t4a with a standard inlet we do our best to keep them around 12 to 14 weeks some go quicker a few don’t. We have been 12 to 14 weeks on these stocks for the last two years. This inlet is a Sako 995, it is usally a inlet that we do not do, and the bottom metal is almost impossible to get. Most of this inlet is hand done and does not run the Fadals. It also requires a lot of build up and fitting in the rear tang area. We had talked about this on the phone when I took your order. I had one other order in house for this inlet so I said that I would get you taken care of. That order is also still in house and not completed. I will make sure that we get you taken care of in the time frame that the office gave you on Thursday.

Again, I take full blame for the bad communication, our main goal has been and always will be great customer service. We stand behind our stocks 100% with a money back quarantee. To prevent communication problems like this and unhappy customers in the future. We will no longer give fim delivery dates on un-standard one-of custom inlets.

Thank you very much,

 

[257speed]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

Tom, the way you fix this is that on custom/ non standards, automatic $100 custom layup fee and no timeframe. But I know you better than that hahaha Seriously guys, Tom would bend over backwards to help anyone wanting one of his stocks, but if you are ordering something totally custom you have to roll with the punches. In this industry, the difference between a 14 week promise and a 20 week delivery is nothing.

 

[jasonk]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 257speed</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In this industry, the difference between a 14 week promise and a 20 week delivery is nothing. </div></div>

Sad that we've come to expect missed deadlines so much that a full month and a half past is "nothing".

Agreed that Tom is as good as they come, he's provided me with great customer service. I'm surprised he was even nice enough to offer to do an inlet he only gets two of a year, he's a better man than me. He should charge more as it obviously costs more to do them, then just promise 6 months or less, that seems reasonable.

 

[JSTARSZ]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

I applaud Tom Manner's for coming on here with an explanation. You don't see that from a business very often. And, it is that kind of service that will make me put a Manner's stock on my next custom build.

 

[steelcomp]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thomas Manners</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand everything being said. I'm sure Tom is GTG, and I will continue to wait. I guess you can say my level of disappointment and frustration is only testimony to what I'm looking forward to with his product. Thinking I was a phone call away from delivery, only to be told another four weeks was really a let down. I'm not accustom to these kinds of business practices being acceptabble or even understandable, but it seems common in this industry. If that's the case, so be it. It is what it is. I really mean no trouble and I'm not looking for sympathy...like I said, just venting.
ETA: Thanks for the encouragement. </div></div>Hi Scott, I will take full blame for the bad communication with you, I think that I took the order myself. Right now we are about 19 weeks on the order. On a adjustable cheek stock like the mcs-t4a with a standard inlet we do our best to keep them around 12 to 14 weeks some go quicker a few don’t. We have been 12 to 14 weeks on these stocks for the last two years. This inlet is a Sako 995, it is usally a inlet that we do not do, and the bottom metal is almost impossible to get. Most of this inlet is hand done and does not run the Fadals. It also requires a lot of build up and fitting in the rear tang area. We had talked about this on the phone when I took your order. I had one other order in house for this inlet so I said that I would get you taken care of. That order is also still in house and not completed. I will make sure that we get you taken care of in the time frame that the office gave you on Thursday.

Again, I take full blame for the bad communication, our main goal has been and always will be great customer service. We stand behind our stocks 100% with a money back quarantee. To prevent communication problems like this and unhappy customers in the future. We will no longer give fim delivery dates on un-standard one-of custom inlets.
Thank you very much,
</div></div>
Thanks for that Tom. I appreciate the response.

 

[steelcomp]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 257speed</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In this industry, the difference between a 14 week promise and a 20 week delivery is nothing. </div></div>

Sad that we've come to expect missed deadlines so much that a full month and a half past is "nothing".

Agreed that Tom is as good as they come, he's provided me with great customer service. I'm surprised he was even nice enough to offer to do an inlet he only gets two of a year, he's a better man than me. He should charge more as it obviously costs more to do them, then just promise 6 months or less, that seems reasonable. </div></div>It's sad to me that an industry has put the burdon of delivery delays on the customer instead of increasing or improving productivity to meet the demands. I guess when you only have one competitor you can get away with this.

 

[steelcomp]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSTARSZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Coming on here and talking about Manners is about the same as GAP - you will get all kind of they are good people which we all know is true; however, what gets people all riled up is UNMET promises. If you can't do it tell me and I will quit calling and asking. Be some what realistic in saying what can and CANNOT be done. If they would have told him earlier that it would be another four weeks he would have been disappointed but he would have put that in his head - OK, four more weeks.

I just hate being promised something and then get stringed along with weak excuses. It ticks me off. So, I understand the rant

I would still have no problem buying a Manner's Stock - it is an awesome piece of technology. This rant doesn't change that.
</div></div>X2, 100%.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's sad to me that an industry has put the burdon of delivery delays on the customer instead of increasing or improving productivity to meet the demands. I guess when you only have one competitor you can get away with this. </div></div>

The molds these guys are using are $3,000 plus. For vacuum molds, try $10,000+

It's always easy to say just add more equipment/staff to meet the needs but that’s just it, easier to say, harder to do. I spoke with Tom this morning concerning stocks of mine that are in his shop, keep in mind, this is Saturday and he's the owner. Tom told me he's been there everyday this week until midnight trying to get caught up. He's trying and doing the best he can. He's behind because he manufactures a good product. Supply & demand can be a bitch at times and usually drives the price. Estimated completion dates are just that, an estimate of time. Some products take longer to complete than others and we all hit un-expected delays from time to time. We should all try to remember that the next time we order a custom product.

Quality over quantity is a way of life for more than a few.

 

[steelcomp]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...


If Tom's working 7 days a week to catch up, it's not because he manufactures a good product. He's behind bacause he takes on more work than he can handle. These niche companies (like Manners) don't <span style="font-style: italic">have</span> to invest in their businesses to meet customer demands. They have no competition forcing their hand and can basically dictate to the customer with no fear of losing business. No reason to invest in the business when youre not <span style="font-style: italic">losing</span> business. In these times it's also difficult to know <span style="font-style: italic">when</span> to invest in your business, because as much work as there is right now, the phone could stop ringing at a moment's notice. It's a catch 22. It's a far better problem to have than no customers at all.

 

[mauritz45]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

WTF are you blabbing about now? you didnt like mr. manners reply? he's a niche company with NO competition? doesnt have to invest in company??
do you or have you owned a manufacturing company?
you are an idiot, who couldnt leave well enough alone and just had to show how smart you think you are.==cam

 

[KYS]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

Welcome to the custom gun world steelcomp! You will find out that nothing ever happens in its quoted time frames and whatever someone tells you, add 2 more weeks to that time frame.

He had a family emergency, cut the guy some slack. He has done a ton of stocks for me, and they have always been done fast and as close to the deadline as he can get them.

What are you bitching about "he doesn't have to invest in customers" and he has no competition? Are you on drugs? His biggest competition would be McMillan. Go order one from them if it will make you happy and guess what they will tell you "a couple months and it will end up being 9 months like always. This isn't the Bitch and Vent forum, this is for gunsmithing.

And if you read his first post he says that most of the time it wasnt Tom on the phone. Tom is charge of the orders and what gets done when, he is the boss. If he isnt there how can he comment on when it will get done? I dont think he ever promises a delivery date, he always has told me it should be around this time....
Stop throwing the words around "he promised" and all that crap, no custom gun maker or stock maker will promise much other than they will do the best they can to give you a top quality product.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYshooter338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> His biggest competition would be McMillan. Go order one from them if it will make you happy and guess what they will tell you "a couple months and it will end up being 9 months like always.
</div></div>

Or even worse, they might tell you what they told me, "Why don't you buy a real rifle?". Tom gave me no such response. He told me that he thought there was indeed a market for stocks inletted for my action (Tikka) and was in the process of building the first prototypes. I received one of the very first Tikka T4's and there were delays, but trust me when I say that Tom made it all worthwhile! I absolutely love my stock and Tom is indeed a very good person and his CS is top notch.

Be thankful that the work he didn't turn down to keep from being too busy was yours.

John

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's a far better problem to have than no customers at all.

</div></div>

That’s one thing we can both agree on for sure. Business is a sure nuff bitch at times. I had a larger Electrical Contracting Co. than I do now with all the employees and their related baggage, 941 Reports, matching FICA / SS, Workman’s Comp, Un-employment payments, GL Insurance, yada, yada, yada. Glad those days are behind me and this type of thing is an issue for Manners, McMillan, Krieger, Bartlien etc.

On a side..........I do know when to say no and that's a problem a lot of them have, they don’t know when to say it.

 

[steelcomp]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYshooter338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welcome to the custom gun world steelcomp! You will find out that nothing ever happens in its quoted time frames and whatever someone tells you, add 2 more weeks to that time frame.

He had a family emergency, cut the guy some slack. He has done a ton of stocks for me, and they have always been done fast and as close to the deadline as he can get them.

What are you bitching about "he doesn't have to invest in customers" and he has no competition? Are you on drugs? His biggest competition would be McMillan. Go order one from them if it will make you happy and guess what they will tell you "a couple months and it will end up being 9 months like always. This isn't the Bitch and Vent forum, this is for gunsmithing.

And if you read his first post he says that most of the time it wasnt Tom on the phone. Tom is charge of the orders and what gets done when, he is the boss. If he isnt there how can he comment on when it will get done? I dont think he ever promises a delivery date, he always has told me it should be around this time....
Stop throwing the words around "he promised" and all that crap, no custom gun maker or stock maker will promise much other than they will do the best they can to give you a top quality product.
</div></div>LOL...Who didn't see this coming.

First, where did I say anything about Tom investing in customers? Also, where did I say anything about promises? If you're going to jump my ass, at least quote me correctly. Otherwise, back off.
Second, my last response was more in defense or at least regognition of the industry, and Manners as a company, not a criticism or complaint. I'd love to have that kind of workload, and basically <span style="font-style: italic">one</span> competitor with an equal workload. In one of my businesses, I almost have to give work away just to get it, and the difference between me and my competitors (of which there are hundreds) can come down to the better customer service or customer relations. One of the reasons I went with Manners was because I was told McM would be 9 months, and cost more. I liked the features and feedback on the Manners stocks, and Tom was good enough to take on a special project. I'm not sorry I went that direction, regardless of the added time. Based on what Tom has told me, I'm hoping we won't be having this conversation in four more weeks. As from the beginning, I'm only going on what I've been told, but I guess I'm the bad guy here.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

I wish I had the power to delete this thread.

 

[USMCj]

Re: Manners stocks pissing me off...

Wow, this guy has been waiting a month and a half longer than he was told and you guys are ripping him a new one instead of understanding his frustration and offering some comforting words? This fanboy shit is starting to get real old! All the guy was doing was venting, he did not put Manners or his products down in any way.

And its kinda funny how it takes a thread like this for the owner of a company to jump out and start damage control, when he had plenty of chances to call the OP back and set everything straight.

Tom, I have nothing against you or your bad ass stocks! but Im siding with the OP on this one. Having one promise date after another, and another, and yet another is not acceptable IMHO. Give long enough of a ETA to make sure you have time to get the work done. Now I know it doesnt always work out as planned, but 4-5 missed ETA's? I also realize you came here and accepted responsibility for this whole mess, but the point it, not until he made the issue public on the forum. Im sure if you had called the OP back when he left numerous messeges, he would have never posted this issue on a public forum.

just my .02c (flame suit on!)