Manufacturing primers

1jonathan1994

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so a friend was interested in this until we figured out how dangerous it really is.
Had a low 6 figure investor on board.
Friend has a business and land and insurance and machine shop.
I'm a mechanical engineer so could figure out the mechanical side.
Another friend knows a chemical engineer who was willing.

What are we missing about this because surely other folks have thought about this.
Does it really take millions to get your feet in the door? A small operation could still produce thousands per day and make a killing now. I'm sure it would take 6 months minimum to start prototyping even with the business side shortcutted.

Edit
Packaging was one of the things that had us stumped. Couldn't see investing in injection molding equipment for the trays required for shipping.
 

THEIS

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    Hi,

    Well your product liability and general liability insurance alone would be pushing 10k per month and that will be based off of only about 5k primers entering the commercial market per week. Current machine shops insurance will not cover the product liability side of the primer house.

    Increase that number and product liability increases exponentially.

    Also..not many buildings and machine shops have the controlled air quality that primer manufacturing requires on the floor.

    Don't forget the FETA :)

    Hate to be the bearer of bad news but legit primer manufacturing equipment...your investor would need to add a zero to his low 6 figures.

    I literally a couple weeks ago just spec'd out an ammunition facility for the Government of Indonesia and without primer equipment it was pushing 21 million. Adding primer manufacturing equipment pushed it towards 28 million.

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     

    1moaoff

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    Hmm.... explosives licensing and manufacturing... no one has history in that... couple hundred thousand dollars maybe.....sourcing raw materials,,, testing.. certification... consumer adoption.. sales pipeline.. industry contacts...

    Should I go on?

    I say go for it. 🤣

    I mean what do you have to loose... life property...time... money... sanity

    Eta, packing is the simple part
     

    THEIS

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  • Nov 27, 2017
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    Hi,

    Shit, yea the plastic packaging can be done OEM although it will eat into your profit margin.
    But that being said....you are in Laurel MS which is only couple hours from me.
    Let me know if you all proceed and I can discuss assisting with a few things if need be :)

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     

    1moaoff

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    A business side question... so after things settle down in a few years what would you do then? Close up shop?
     

    squishee

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    Do you think things will settle down in a few years?
    Im not thinking so for the next 4 years and beyond after whatever commy fucktard steals the next vote.
     
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    Baron23

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    Just a quick anecdote...a good friend of mine is an American Skeet multi-time champ and Open All American for decades in a row.

    So, he used to be sponsored by Rem for ammo...when Rem sponsored ammo.

    He as invited on a tour of the plant in Lone Oak and after going back outside he asked his tour guide what that small building down the hill was for.

    The answer was "primer production."

    My friend then asked why it was way down there.

    The answer was "cause we've blown it up a couple/few times".

    Very dangerous stuff, in my limited experience and opinion.
     

    THEIS

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    The answer was "primer production."

    My friend then asked why it was way down there.

    The answer was "cause we've blown it up a couple/few times".

    Very dangerous stuff, in my limited experience and opinion.

    Hi,

    LOL yes...the mixing and application house is hardly ever in the same facility as to the cupping machines, furnaces, anvil stamping, etc.

    FWIW the cupping machine alone is 1.35 Million dollars. The furnace to go along with it is close to 600k. The wet mixing/compounding and application machines...LOLOLOL I can purchase consecutive VIN Bugatti's.

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     

    MarinePMI

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    Just a quick anecdote...a good friend of mine is an American Skeet multi-time champ and Open All American for decades in a row.

    So, he used to be sponsored by Rem for ammo...when Rem sponsored ammo.

    He as invited on a tour of the plant in Lone Oak and after going back outside he asked his tour guide what that small building down the hill was for.

    The answer was "primer production."

    My friend then asked why it was way down there.

    The answer was "cause we've blown it up a couple/few times".

    Very dangerous stuff, in my limited experience and opinion.

    This was one of the reasons Remington set up a factory in Mexico, many moons ago (that they have since sold off).

    Primer manufacturing is dangerous, and even more so with poorly trained people. You really need anal retentive, OCD folks to run priming of any type. One screw up is all it takes for really bad shit to happen (as in dead people and serious property damage).
     
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    THEIS

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    Hi,

    @MarinePMI
    Didn't one of the guys back when it was DTA and they were setting up their ammunition loading plant take a primer through the eye from one of the primer feed tubes? Pretty sure it was Russ or something like that.....

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     

    MarinePMI

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    Hi,

    @MarinePMI
    Didn't one of the guys back when it was DTA and they were setting up their ammunition loading plant take a primer through the eye from one of the primer feed tubes? Pretty sure it was Russ or something like that.....

    Sincerely,
    Theis

    I don't know the name, but I had heard of that. I also was told of three workers that were killed when they mishandled the wet priming mix. A year later, the workforce went on strike, claiming unsafe working conditions. I forget how they resolved it, but it was Mexico, so I'm sure somebody got paid off...
     

    Baron23

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    @THEIS @MarinePMI - the story my buddy related to me was from some good while back and if I remember correctly they did take him down there and it was the facility where they mixed the explosive and hand filled the primer cups.

    I don't know squat about manf primers, but this is the best of my recollection. I believe that they have big trays of cups and would use a plastic scraper type thing to push the slurry across the empty cups and fill them. That is, at the time it was still done by hand (does that make any sense at all) But, I may well be remembering this wrong.

    He also told me that there was a constant mist to keep everything damp/wet.

    We have now officially exceeded any knowledge of mine regarding primer manufacturing. LOL
     

    RMB

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    Ammo (based in AZ.?) has a brass plant that was purchased from a stamping company in Manitowoc, Wis. They just announce a new plant and another 200 employees.
     
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    mcfred

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    Just a thought: Solicit the Cartels in Juarez/Tijuana to produce primers. Tons of venture capital, no licensing, no insurance, no hazmat, no unions, no tax, no tariffs, no OSHA, no EPA, very little overhead, they already have established import and distribution network and probably some of the precursor(s). Hell, the ATF will probably help them set it all up ala Fast and Furious 2.0. When the market dries up they're already well-diversified and have plenty of cash liquidity to spin up other products/services.
     

    GenericBadGuy

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    Just a thought: Solicit the Cartels in Juarez/Tijuana to produce primers. Tons of venture capital, no licensing, no insurance, no hazmat, no unions, no tax, no tariffs, no OSHA, no EPA, very little overhead, they already have established import and distribution network and probably some of the precursor(s). Hell, the ATF will probably help them set it all up ala Fast and Furious 2.0. When the market dries up they're already well-diversified and have plenty of cash liquidity to spin up other products/services.
    They are too busy focusing on ways to control market share of the now formally legal mairjuana markets in California, Colorado etc.
     

    Ledzep

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    Primer plants are places where you walk around all day in water wearing rubber boots and anti-static everything and play with shit that would drop the building if it gets dry enough and you look at it wrong.

    Will need a press for cups, will need a press for anvils, IIRC most primers have some sort of foil disk in the assembly, then you need the HE material, storage, hazards, etc... to dose the primers, and a way to assemble then dry them.

    I agree, packaging is one of your last/least worries. You'd be busy for a few years no doubt if you could get it going but I also agree it's going to take considerably more money up front than what you're talking about.
     

    R0man

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    Do you think things will settle down in a few years?
    Im not thinking so for the next 4 years and beyond after whatever commy fucktard steals the next vote.

    Yes. When they take our sticks, primers would be useless.
    You say they won't take them? After blatanthy stole an election and courts refuse to see it? Change my mind.
     

    squishee

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    Um you kinda made MY point.

    I dont think taking our sticks = settling down.
     

    addertooth

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    Yes. When they take our sticks, primers would be useless.
    You say they won't take them? After blatenty stole an election and courts refuse to see it? Change my mind.

    You hit the nail on the pointed tip (instead of the head). Instead think it backwards. Many people can make guns, but very few people can make primers. If the government wants to control guns, they can leave everyone with their guns. They will put a squeeze on the suppliers of Primers, and anything which has a primer in it.
     

    Wiillk

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    Getting back to the subject at hand, Gunbroker sent me an email saying they had reloading supplies available. So, being the curious individual, I took a gander. WOW. Twenty-seven cents ($0.27) PER PRIMER. I still have a box of primers with the price tag of $0.78 for a hundred.

    These folks are getting really desperate. And, the bidding is not over on these primers. I realize, 4 or 8 years from now when the nation cools down and cooler heads prevail in Washington, the scare might be over, but hey, at today’s prices 10K a month for insurance plus another 7 mil for startup, might not be a detriment to an entrepreneur(s)

    (Before you ask or accuse me of hoarding, it was a partial box that got misplaced in the shuffle of components and was recently found when I cleaned up and restructured the reloading area)
     

    THEIS

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    but hey, at today’s prices 10K a month for insurance plus another 7 mil for startup, might not be a detriment to an entrepreneur(s)

    Hi,

    Be willing to wager there are less than 10 people on this forum that have no problem with an investment increasing from low 6 figures to 7 million (Not including facility, licenses, labor, inspections, etc, lol.....all others would be a hard pass on said investment.

    Lets take your numbers of 27 cents per primer lol in relation to liability insurance cost.
    10k per month liability insurance for 5k primers per week.
    So 20k primers per month at 27 cents each is $5400 per month.......


    You have to step up to the big boy insurance policy that allows millions of primers into commercial market a week in order for the expense/profit to swing back the other way.
    These type of insurance policies are by design to not cater to the small productions.

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     

    Snuby642

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    You hit the nail on the pointed tip (instead of the head). Instead think it backwards. Many people can make guns, but very few people can make primers. If the government wants to control guns, they can leave everyone with their guns. They will put a squeeze on the suppliers of Primers, and anything which has a primer in it.

    I think that was last months news.
     

    Wiillk

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    Hi,

    Be willing to wager there are less than 10 people on this forum that have no problem with an investment increasing from low 6 figures to 7 million (Not including facility, licenses, labor, inspections, etc, lol.....all others would be a hard pass on said investment.

    Lets take your numbers of 27 cents per primer lol in relation to liability insurance cost.
    10k per month liability insurance for 5k primers per week.
    So 20k primers per month at 27 cents each is $5400 per month.......


    You have to step up to the big boy insurance policy that allows millions of primers into commercial market a week in order for the expense/profit to swing back the other way.
    These type of insurance policies are by design to not cater to the small productions.

    Sincerely,
    Theis
    This was all tongue in cheek.
     

    Wiillk

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    Hi,

    Shit, sorry...of all the languages I can understand.....I have not quiet got the tongue in cheek down with all the years I have been in USA.

    Sincerely,
    Theis
    No worries, in these days and times we all have to laugh at ourselves and with each other every now and then. Please, no offense was taken.