Marines about to be more embarrassing then Chair Force

Trigger Monkey

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    Here's a better article from the Marine Corps Times.


    I wasn't a Marine but the fact that they're considering this course of action is more than a little unsettling.

    Here are a couple of excerpts that didn't sit right with me:

    "The question becomes: Which is a greater risk? This loss of culture or the lack of a specific skill that is necessary?" Kidder said.

    "In addition, offering the prestige of a Marine uniform may be a draw to some young people with high-level cyber skills. A lateral entry would "appeal to that guy who just wants to wear the Marine emblem on their chest – but who could otherwise, maybe, make $200,000 as a 26-year-old," Reynolds said."

    "Carter's proposal for expanding lateral entry options for high-skilled civilians was one of many controversial ideas he floated in the final months of the Obama administration. He also suggested the military should consider modifying fitness standards, grooming regulations or rules that make past drug use disqualifying — an in an effort to make recruiting cyber talent easier."


    I don't want to make this political but the good idea fairy blessed a couple political science fools and they just need to go eat a dick. Again, not a Marine, I was Army Infantry but there is a certain esprit de corps/culture necessary that is really only gained by being challenged, suffering pain, and working as a team that makes the whole thing work. It's what creates Us (military) and separates Us from Them (civilians). Compromise that and it begins to chip away at the foundations of what holds these institutions up.

    And what the fuck is this about throwing uniforms at people and modifying the standards? That always works out to the overall benefit of the organization huh.... If you're an overweight narcissist that loves computers, come on dowwwwn!

    dennis_nedry_1440.0.jpg
     

    Ghost29

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    Here's a better article from the Marine Corps Times.


    I wasn't a Marine but the fact that they're considering this course of action is more than a little unsettling.

    Here are a couple of excerpts that didn't sit right with me:

    "The question becomes: Which is a greater risk? This loss of culture or the lack of a specific skill that is necessary?" Kidder said.

    I am a Marine and I think this is possibly the stupidest thing I’ve read. Both are necessary! Marines are made in Boot Camp/OCS , it is a right of passage, and a uniform does not make someone a Marine. Being a Marine is a frame of mind, instilled by the the history and traditions of the Marine Corps.

    There are ways to entice someone into joining the Marine Corps without taking away Boot Camp.
     

    Milf Dots

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    Task and Purpose at one time labeled themselves a left leaning organization (I don't know if they still admit it in print), so they may have revived that piece simply to aggravate Americans.
     

    M8541Reaper

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    Oooooooooooorrrrrrrr they can just hire civilians to fill the gap.

    Give them a little MCRD goodie bag (aqua velva, brown towel, and an expired bag of skittles), a “I Serve Too” patch, mousepad with an EGA on it, and a coupon for 50% off an 8oz Red Bull.

    If they apply on USAJobs within the next 10 minutes, they’ll be guaranteed a keyboard that has all of the keys.*

    *keys not guaranteed to work at all times.

    Fuck, I should run for Congress so I can push for this kind of forward thinking.
     

    Devildog

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    This is more ridiculous then when I served in mid 80’s and they started their contract Corporal BS. Sign up for six years and get promoted to Corporal in one year, then freeze promotions for many MOS’s and shove them out the door when they can’t get promoted.

    Its bull shit, get off the bus, stand on the yellow foot prints then earn the title and the rank. Fuck the politics, Stop with the fuck fuck games!!
     

    RGStory

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    This seems to be a settled issue.
    The solution they went with was to establish the Marine Corps Cyber Auxiliary.

    I don't know if they are recruiting enough, but just looking at their current members, most seem to have prior service experience and those that do not have prior experience include professionals like the Director of Cyber Security at Freddie Mac or people already working for the DOD in civilian roles.


    A simple solution was mentioned in the 2017 Marine Corps Times article.
    "One route is to boost cyber capabilities in the reserve component and mobilize those part-time Marines as needed."

    Let the civilian market train the cyber skills, and let the Marine Corps train the Marine.

    Offer active component members who are getting out a paid school seat in a university program, a bonus package, job placement, and an 8 year reserve contract.

    Offer the same to entry level Reserve Marines and by the time they make it to Senior SNCO / Officer ranks in the reserves they will have built up their professional credentials as a cyber engineers. If they drop out of school prior to completion, force a lat move and transfer them to another reserve unit.
     

    RGStory

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    Give the data Marines a much fucking higher retention bonus to compete with the 60K annual salary they could get as a civvie once they get out after four years. The good ones worth keeping make Sgt somewhere after the 3 yr mark anyway.

    Duh.

    $60K seems low for the sort of people they are recruiting. Its not entry level they are seeking but established professionals which seems to be the national average salary of $120K according to zip recruiter and Salary.com. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics places the entry level between $70K - $90K.

    However, even at $60K, for a equivalent compensation on a 4 year contract, your are still looking at offering a $240K bonus when the highest I can remember for intel Marines was around $90K.

    Again, let the civilian market train and compensate these individuals and let the Marine Corps focus on training Marines.
     
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    Inifinty

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    $60K seems low for the sort of people they are recruiting. Its not entry level they are seeking but established professionals which seems to be the national average salary of $120K according to zip recruiter and Salary.com. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics places the entry level between $70K - $90K.

    However, even at $60K, for a equivalent compensation on a 4 year contract, your are still looking at offering a $240K bonus when the highest I can remember for intel Marines was around $90K.

    Again, let the civilian market train and compensate these individuals and let the Marine Corps focus on training Marines.

    There are multiple roles needed for a data Marine. I'm not sure they differentiate in the article. But there may be cyber super sleuths snoopn and poopn front line cyber stuff that are highly skilled and siloed in their capability. Then in contrast there are the Marines running things like security, email, Internet for base infrastructures and/or LAN infrastructures at the Group level while back on base with capabilities to deploy similar while in the field.

    My point is that its not a one size fits all puzzle to solve as there a many areas to cover. This article seems to focus on the siloed type snoop n poop security tard but it's not clear.
     

    Inifinty

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    Why not just hire civilian contractors for those roles? I don't get it.

    They always have supplemented like that for specialized roles that sit in a dark closet on a base somewhere.

    The Col in barracks or in the field still needs a data Marine that can extend comms to wherever he has deployed AND that can move and support combat units without being a complete boat anchor.
     

    RGStory

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    There are multiple roles needed for a data Marine. I'm not sure they differentiate in the article. But there may be cyber super sleuths snoopn and poopn front line cyber stuff that are highly skilled and siloed in their capability. Then in contrast there are the Marines running things like security, email, Internet for base infrastructures and/or LAN infrastructures at the Group level while back on base with capabilities to deploy similar while in the field.

    My point is that its not a one size fits all puzzle to solve as there a many areas to cover. This article seems to focus on the siloed type snoop n poop security tard but it's not clear.

    If I understand this correctly, it is not about the 2800's or 0600's MOS fields. This is about literally hacking and jamming through the deployment of cyber warfare capabilities on the front line of the battle space. Think of the US Drone that was hacked by the Iranians a few years ago. So moving the strategic level attack capabilities of the NSA or Cyber Command to the operational or even tactical battle space answerable to the commander on the ground in a dynamic front line capacity.

    Looking at some of the members of the newly formed auxiliary, most seem to be in the defensive role on the civilian side, perhaps the lack of offensive "hackers" is due to the recruiting gap.
     
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    RGStory

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    They always have supplemented like that for specialized roles that sit in a dark closet on a base somewhere.

    The Col in barracks or in the field still needs a data Marine that can extend comms to wherever he has deployed AND that can move and support combat units without being a complete boat anchor.

    I am not certain this is the type of cyber capability they are referring to, but rather that they are talking about shutting down the enemy's capability to set up data.


    "Marines must be able to operate without high-tech equipment and gear to fire weapons or find their way around a new location because hitting your enemy's network is likely to be a first line of attack in future warfare."

    "To me, that's going to be the first salvo of whatever competition there is," Neller said. "... [But] that fight is going on every day, every second right now." And hopefully, he added, "we've done the same thing to the other guy."



    This seems to be the paper that changed everyone's tone with a move to the Auxiliary Corps model.

     

    Inifinty

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    Certainly Marines need the capability to protect their gear and their comms. But should offensive or even reactive Cyber warfare even fall under the purview of the Marine Corps? Seems odd they should take on a capability like that beyond the ability to capture or destroy physical infrastructure to me. Cyber offense can be sourced anywhere from land, sea, air, or space, by anyone on your side, so long as there are boots on the ground to extend the electronic plumbing.

    They are getting bogged down in the weeds here IMO. Some general reading magazines and trying to create a requirement to bolster relevance when it's not actually needed.

    Stick to blowing shit up with extreme prejudice and making the other guy die for his cause.
     

    Redmanss

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    Originally dated 2016, with a supposed "update" Nov 23, 2021 (I read that as Necro-thread).
    Who knows what the .gov is planning, now that it is full of Leftists, Woke assholes, and apparatchiks.
    Dept of Navy has a man in a dress running things.
    If you’re talking about the Assistant Secretary for Health, former PA health fugly that’s now a so-called admiral, that is the USPHS under DHHS and has zero to do with the US Navy, same place the Surgeon General works and another uniform and title that’s given and not earned by anything relating to actual military service. They’re nothing more than political appointees who wear a uniform to make them feel special, but you’ll never see them anywhere near a battlefield.
     

    RGStory

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    Certainly Marines need the capability to protect their gear and their comms. But should offensive or even reactive Cyber warfare even fall under the purview of the Marine Corps? Seems odd they should take on a capability like that beyond the ability to capture or destroy physical infrastructure to me. Cyber offense can be sourced anywhere from land, sea, air, or space, by anyone on your side, so long as there are boots on the ground to extend the electronic plumbing.

    They are getting bogged down in the weeds here IMO. Some general reading magazines and trying to create a requirement to bolster relevance when it's not actually needed.

    Stick to blowing shit up with extreme prejudice and making the other guy die for his cause.

    I agree with you entirely. However, I simply do not know. It is beyond my knowledge base.

    With the move to the adoption of the Network Centric Warfare theory, I think it was inevitable on some level. We opened ourselves to a new vulnerability by becoming reliant on the integration of networked systems of communication and control and our enemies have responded. They responded by likewise adopting the force multiplier NCW brings and finding ways to disrupt our networks on the battlefield. We must explore the ability to respond and disrupt their networks while protecting our own.

    Personally, I think the Navy and Marine Corps should run training ops where they operate in Dark environments. I.E. No Electronic equipment for at least 2 weeks. See how quickly shit breaks down and refresh ourselves on the processes to maintain effective command and control.
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    I was a Marine Draftee, and will remain a Marine, through and through, until interred, maybe longer...

    I was assigned a specialty MOS, 1141 Engineer Electrician. But we were also required to provide our own Infantry support, and did so with distinction, example Gio Linh.

    I spent just about the rest of my life up to age 58 in what evolved into I/T, at which point I had a 'terminal' Heart Attack and was declared unfit for work of any kind by the Soc Sec Admin.

    Never willing to accept a no answer to such a question, I set about to become a government subsidized firearms accuracy researcher. Yes, that is said with some small degree of tongue in cheek, but not a truckload.

    So I get the I/T ain't riflemen sentiment, but it was never true in my own case, I just didn't wear the EGA while so engaged. And I could live with that, but not the wearing of the EGA, because those who should wear it should also be riflemen, IMHO. Yes, I'm another one of those hardheaded Marine who thinks the EGA, Corps, and Boot are a matched set, and that anything else ain't a Marine, per my own personal narrow little definition. IMHO a Marine is not simply a rifleman, but all marine troops are also responsible for their own Infantry Support function.

    Should there be folks outside that definition accepted and welcomed within the Corps' Organization? Absolutely, yes; they are essential and will continue to become moreso. But I wouldn't want to call on them to take beach in person; there's just too great a void in between the two tasks. Actually, they'd probably be outstandingly deadly while sitting at a screen. Another example, The Marine Band.

    IMHO, they should wear the uniform (Medics do, right?), and be welcome in Marine Veteran associations (again, like the Medics); but also like the Medics, they should also wear their own set of insignia, not Marine insignia. There is sufficient precedent for that sort of relationship, and it would be, for me, a respectable one.

    Just as the Medics are Navy, might not the I/T folks be Space Force, or Navy, or a new force - Tech Force?

    Is this my entire thinking on the subject? No, I still need to do a lot of thinking on this subject; but for now, it's a foot in the door. Gotta start somewhere.

    Greg
     
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    RGStory

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    I was a Marine Draftee, and will remain a Marine, through and through, until interred, maybe longer...

    I was assigned a specialty MOS, 1141 Engineer Electrician. But we were also required to provide our own Infantry support, and did so with distinction, example Gio Linh.

    I spent just about the rest of my life up to age 58 in what evolved into I/T, at which point I had a 'terminal' Heart Attack and was declared unfit for work of any kind by the Soc Sec Admin.

    Never willing to accept a no answer to such a question, I set about to become a government subsidized firearms accuracy researcher. Yes, that is said with some small degree of tongue in cheek, but not a truckload.

    So I get the I/T ain't riflemen sentiment, but it was never true in my own case, I just didn't wear the EGA while so engaged. And I could live with that, but not the wearing of the EGA, because those who should wear it should also be riflemen, IMHO. Yes, I'm another one of those hardheaded Marine who thinks the EGA, Corps, and Boot are a matched set, and that anything else ain't a Marine, per my own personal narrow little definition. IMHO a Marine is not simply a rifleman, but all marine troops are also responsible for their own Infantry Support function.

    Should there be folks outside that definition accepted and welcomed within the Corps' Organization? Absolutely, yes; they are essential and will continue to become moreso. But I wouldn't want to call on them to take beach in person; there's just too great a void in between the two tasks. Actually, they'd probably be outstandingly deadly while sitting at a screen. Another example, The Marine Band.

    IMHO, they should wear the uniform (Medics do, right?), and be welcome in Marine Veteran associations (again, like the Medics); but also like the Medics, they should also wear their own set of insignia, not Marine insignia. There is sufficient precedent for that sort of relationship, and it would be, for me, a respectable one.

    Just as the Medics are Navy, might not the I/T folks be Space Force, or Navy, or a new force - Tech Force?

    Is this my entire thinking on the subject? No, I still need to do a lot of thinking on this subject; but for now, it's a foot in the door. Gotta start somewhere.

    Greg

    Sounds like you have the background they might find useful if you willing to volunteer and get involved with the Corps again. What's the worst they could say? No?

     

    lariat

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    Certainly Marines need the capability to protect their gear and their comms. But should offensive or even reactive Cyber warfare even fall under the purview of the Marine Corps? Seems odd they should take on a capability like that beyond the ability to capture or destroy physical infrastructure to me. Cyber offense can be sourced anywhere from land, sea, air, or space, by anyone on your side, so long as there are boots on the ground to extend the electronic plumbing.

    They are getting bogged down in the weeds here IMO. Some general reading magazines and trying to create a requirement to bolster relevance when it's not actually needed.

    Stick to blowing shit up with extreme prejudice and making the other guy die for his cause.
    Cyber warfare falls under the purview of all branches as well as many (most) agencies. Also, capturing or destroying enemy assets can be enabled, initiated or completed by cyber means, and not all of it remotely. This is especially true for things that are isolated or hardened. Extending the "electronic plumbing" is not always feasible.

    A quick Google search will show where we are already engaging in this fight as well as taking hits. All branches are pushing well into this realm and trying to obtain technology that can be employed in the field. The amount of attention being placed on this is real.
     
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    Oldloser

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    $60K seems low for the sort of people they are recruiting. Its not entry level they are seeking but established professionals which seems to be the national average salary of $120K according to zip recruiter and Salary.com. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics places the entry level between $70K - $90K.

    However, even at $60K, for a equivalent compensation on a 4 year contract, your are still looking at offering a $240K bonus when the highest I can remember for intel Marines was around $90K.

    Again, let the civilian market train and compensate these individuals and let the Marine Corps focus on training Marines.

    I hire kids with no degree, who have high ability and come from blue collar backgrounds. They bust their a** and are glad for training, respect, and the big raises. They also have common sense and never get a big head. They will also do other jobs are required such as man the help desk and pull cables. Five years later they make 80K a year and everyone is happy.

    The Marine Corp’s biggest problem is that the will not let young Marines focus on studying. The gunnies and staffs slay them too much at training venues and the students’ retention, motivation, and then grades suffer.
     
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    lariat

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    I hire kids with no degree, who have high ability and come from blue collar backgrounds. They bust their a** and are glad for training, respect, and the big raises. They also have common sense and never get a big head. They will also do other jobs are required such as man the help desk and pull cables. Five years later they make 80K a year and everyone is happy.

    The Marine Corp’s biggest problem is that the will not let young Marines focus on studying. The gunnies and staffs slay them too much at training venues and the students’ retention, motivation, and then grades suffer.
    Send them to boot camp so that they are assimilated appropriately to their branch. Use their talents and train them further. Once this is done let them use their brains (within the obvious bounds), and let them become dangerous to the enemy through motivation and opportunity. This is the path to success because it creates experience and combines it with trust in both directions and leaves room for the essential learning that comes with fuck ups. You WANT Marines who have the Marine mindset who are in charge of cyber missions. This is an asset. Let them run and THINK. The results would shock the old timers who’s wars have gone the way of the lance. I’m not suggesting a lack of discipline but rather an allowing of freedom to consider the battlespace that Command really doesn’t understand. Not everything that needs to be fucked up has to happen at the end of a barrel. Stuxnet proved that. We must have an integrated force or we will fail.

    And yes, I firmly believe that the offensive mindset behind the keyboard comes by way of proficiency at the firing line. It’s isn’t going to come from coddling that’s for fucking sure. I would rather have someone who broke a keyboard over losing to a foe and reloaded forbthe fight than one who rolled up and quit because it “was hard” and service members died because there are children with an important job whose mindset doesn’t match the seriousness of the job.

    We would be very surprised at the assets the country had available to us if we only looked. And a number of those potential team members are looking for something to belong to.

    The fucking world is changing. We need to get on board, but we need to do so with the intent that comes from the previous generations’ experience.
     
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    SQ54

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    If you didn’t do boot camp you ain’t no fucking Marine and I don’t give a damn what some pussy in the .gov told you. You can both go fuck yourselves or each other!

     
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    RGStory

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    If you didn’t do boot camp you ain’t no fucking Marine and I don’t give a damn what some pussy in the .gov told you. You can both go fuck yourselves or each other!


    Except for that recruit that got on the wrong train and instead of San Diego, went to Korea and fought in some of the major battles there. Can we all agree that he gets a pass?
     

    RGStory

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    Link? I read it in a book years ago. I'd need to search around to see if I can find it. Let me know if you are actually interested and I'll take a look.

    His was an odd case. I don't remember the circumstances other than he hopped on a train somewhere in the mid-west that happened to be filled with reservists mobilizing for the war. After that he just did what he was told and no one figured it out until they were underway on a transport ship. the other Marines loaned him uniforms and basic equipment.

    Coincidentally, they probably didn't think too much of it, as he was one among many of the Chosin Reservoir Marines that didn't go to "boot camp".
     

    SQ54

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    Yes, I really want to know. If true, then he went to “boot” camp the real old school way that existed prior to 1911. And if he was at Chosin Reservoir and survived it (or not) then he has my respect.

    I also want to say that the boot camp that I experienced in 75-76 was identical to that depicted in the movie Full Metal Jacket and that nothing there was anywhere near what the enemy (specifically North Vietnam, but any enemy) would inflict on POW’s. I base this on having attended a briefing by Air Force officers who had been actual POW’s in Hanoi and having the opportunity to ask specific questions of them. This occurred in 1973. The training in boot camp is a cake walk compared to this. I’m sure there are others that would agree with me.

    The first group of these fat fucks that gets over run because they are standing around yanking on their pecker and trying to figure out which end of their M16 to point at the enemy will learn what hardship is. And the politicos will shit themselves while pointing at everyone but the idiots that had this bright fucking idea! Jesus H Christ! What a fucking clusterfuck!

    Edited for clarity!
     
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    Bigfatcock

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    General Anus talked about this as well. He mentioned the idea of bringing in people as warrant officers and even commissioned officers.
     
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    Greg Langelius *

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    Sounds like you have the background they might find useful if you willing to volunteer and get involved with the Corps again. What's the worst they could say? No?


    I can understand the thinking and agree, somewhat; but then there's my age, 75.

    But IMHO, the real problem is that I simply cannot envision such advanced thinking originating within the bowels of the current National Command Structure.

    Also, I would not be as critical of the small unit leadership. We had Gunnies who were less than optimal, too; but for the far better part, they are the backbones of the small units. Each small unit differs to the degree that their Gunnies differ. That's not a bad thing, for from variety springs innovation, a concept which becomes calcified as the command level in question achieves greater altitude. Unfortunately, when that's bad; good Marines go down because of that selfsame bad command strategy. The entire leadership approaches the issues from the opposite ends. The Gunnies engage the individual Marines; the PL's engage the whole and deal more with the Gunnies than the individual Gyrenes. Little picture vs bigger picture, both dealt with to an effective (enough) degree. All are bound by the overall Command Strategy, be it good or bad.

    There's nothing new here, it's been the Marines' way since Tun Tavern days. The past counts, and the novel concepts must be embraced and allowed to succeed or fail without prejudice. There is no perfection, for that is not a human aspect. Marines make do.

    It's the Marine Corps Way, as it is with the other services, just as true.

    As for General Amos, my knowledge of him is essentially a zero. But for specialty troops, there are levels of competence which correspond to the rank structure; we saw this in WWII. In handpicked units, assignments often had little to do with grade and time in, and essentially everything to do with individual capability and its relevance to the assigned task. I witnessed this myself when I attained E-4 rank within 11 months of enlistment. I simply had the skills and the experience which preceded that enlistment. I was also frequently sent on assignments alone and unsupervised, because that was the most appropriate approach to the mission. My status as a junior NCO was barely adequate to permit me some small degree of influence, and was again, appropriate to the task.

    Greg
     
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