MARSOC to be renamed...
- Thread starter MarinePMI
- Start date
I've been generally pissy about a lot of the changes in recent years, but I'm cool with this one.
Our traditions are part of what set us apart, and some of the shit they've come up with recently has gone completely against that, but paying homage to the Raiders seems like a move in the right direction to me.
Our traditions are part of what set us apart, and some of the shit they've come up with recently has gone completely against that, but paying homage to the Raiders seems like a move in the right direction to me.
I see no reason for them to exist, the Navy already has the SEALS, just roll them into the SEALS
Great history though,,,
Perhaps its time to roll the Seals into the MC and the AF back into the Army.
Great history though,,,
Perhaps its time to roll the Seals into the MC and the AF back into the Army.
Yeah, lots of overlap going on there now. The entire MARSOC issue seemed motivated by one thing only: "we want a piece of the action too!" They didn't back in 1987 and that's all fine and good. USASOC, NSW and AFSOC evolved into an extremely capable force that works in a uniquely integrated fashion. Keeping the Marines the way they were with MEU-SOC and Force Recon made a hell of a lot of sense. Trying to make a new psuedo-DA/FID force? Not so much - those bases are well covered. As Jerry says, integrating them with NSW makes a hell of a lot more sense.
But that's just my opinion....<taking cover>
But that's just my opinion....<taking cover>
I was actually thinking rolling the Seals into the Marines as they have a much longer history and more resources, plus when I think SEAL, I just dont see the Navy as their natural service, Sea Air Land sounds more Marine Corps mission than Navy.
I'm only guessing here, but I'd wager MARSOC came about due to the huge black budget and some of the special acquisition rules that SOCOM has, more than anything else...
Actually, the Navy has been around longer than the Marines as the Marines where originally comprised to be a boarding and land combat force for the Navy. As far as budgets go, Marines spend all of their money on "bullets and beans" and if you ever deploy with them you will see just how little they actually have. (been there done that). As far as resources, the Navy had a FY 2012 budget of over 161 billion while last year the Marine budget came in at roughly 30 billion besides, SEALS are actually run by the Army in a round about way. Seeing as everyone likes to change names (until the next C.O. comes along and changes it again) maybe SEALS should go back to UDT to make them more "Navy" like
And for clarity, I'm not bashing devildogs - ounce for ounce they're one of the best fighting forces in the world, but they have a unique role (scaled power projection) and capability in our military and I think it's best if they remain focused there. Dabbling with integration into USSOCOM is a waste of time, effort and money, in my opinion.
That said, I like the idea of going back to Marine Raiders
That said, I like the idea of going back to Marine Raiders
Well said! I can't tell you how pissed a lot of us were when they started dissolving FORCON to integrate us into DET ONE. All because SOCOM wanted the Corps to be at their disposal. I did like how soon after MARSOC we went back and gave rebirth to FORCON all over again just so the Corps still had their very own Special operations capable unit. That was very well played, just a big fuck you to JSOC.
I love the fact we're going back to Raiders. been using the fucking logo since MARSOC's inception anyways.
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The Marines were asked to provide forces to USSOCOM as part of the Nunn-Cohen Act. They refused.
Nunn-Cohen gave USSOCOM Military Funding Program 11 dollars and independent service-like buying capability. The Marines figured out within ten years that SOCOM was not going away and MFP-11 is real money. Seeing that they could get some of that money and buying capability they went back to SOCOM and said they would play (so they could get some o' dem SOCOM dollars instead of having to take special-ops peculiar funding out of Marine Corps service budget).
Sometimes living through those years and recalling what was going on helps delay revisionist history.
Nunn-Cohen gave USSOCOM Military Funding Program 11 dollars and independent service-like buying capability. The Marines figured out within ten years that SOCOM was not going away and MFP-11 is real money. Seeing that they could get some of that money and buying capability they went back to SOCOM and said they would play (so they could get some o' dem SOCOM dollars instead of having to take special-ops peculiar funding out of Marine Corps service budget).
Sometimes living through those years and recalling what was going on helps delay revisionist history.
Welcome back Raiders, although you never really left.
Although I'm sure there will be some POG SgtMaj out there to totally fuck this one up for them, new black on black for all. And stand by all tattoo shops for an influx of strap hangers coming in for new ink.
Although I'm sure there will be some POG SgtMaj out there to totally fuck this one up for them, new black on black for all. And stand by all tattoo shops for an influx of strap hangers coming in for new ink.
I hope its not because "Gung Ho" and some of the Maoist roots appeal to the higher Admin for reason beyond what Carlson and Edson intended.
Interesting I just bought a replica frog skins jacket and it came with a hang tag stating it to be in comliance with oficial USMC trade marking rules. I decided to find out what the rules are and one of them specifically forbids the display of skulls. I guess this is why Amos had to dance around the use of the original Raider patch. Shame that PC prevents our military from scary images.
Interesting I just bought a replica frog skins jacket and it came with a hang tag stating it to be in comliance with oficial USMC trade marking rules. I decided to find out what the rules are and one of them specifically forbids the display of skulls. I guess this is why Amos had to dance around the use of the original Raider patch. Shame that PC prevents our military from scary images.
It only depends on what type of creative loophole you can find/make to get around it.
Thankfully esprit de corps still matters somewhere. From black berets to the First Naval Jack too many wads are making decisions they have no right to make.
The Marine Raiders were the shizzle when the country really needed a lift.
Their little raid on Makin was useless tactically but strategically it was a good compliment to Doolittles Raid.
The neat thing about that time was that there was no difference in gear. What defined a commando from a line troop was strictly motivation. Sure they might have one or two pieces of special gear related to a specific mission but otherwise everything was issued same as in a line company.
Id guess its still the same today you can give a guy the greatest gear in the world but its not going to immediatly make him a commando unless he has the motivation and heart.
Edit - not saying line guys arent motivated with sufficient heart its just that some guys have that little extra unexplainable thing. Often that "thing" will manifest itself when it needs to even among the most "ordinary" of men so its not the possession of just the "special" ones.
I think an understanding of that fact is what had the USMC abandon the Raider idea in WWII. That and probably a little jealousy that one section of the USMC was competing with the official propaganda section.
Edit Again - ....and a lot of people fault the USMC for its propaganda but without that "publicity" and reminder of what has been accomplished "by the few" I doubt the USMC would have survived so many tight fiscal times.
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Kraig,
Recondo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In my day (1970’s) the RECONDO School at Fort Campbell was the Primary Non Commissioned Officer’s Course (PNCOC) which was required for promotion to E-5 in an infantry assignment. While assigned to the division a graduate was authorized to wear the “Recondo” arrowhead patch on his pocket.
It was essentially a two week slice of Ranger School and produced some great junior leaders.
NO SLACK / ABOVE THE REST
Odd, I wasn't aware of that. In the 60's Recondo School was for Recon Units, the Div. had a recon unit, each bde, and each BN had a recon plt. Ours (2/502 Inf) was called RECONDOs, they had a recondo school in country, but seldom did the recon units have the excess people to send to the school, we was kind of busy during the 67-68 time period.
This is the first I've heard of Recondo School being an NCO school (not doubting it, just didn't know). NCO schools weren't as popular back then as they are now, I made it to E-7 without attending any NCO schools (had to go to OCS because I couldn't pass the SQT test for E-8).
I was in the 82nd prior to going to Vietnam, the 82nd recon school was "Raider School". I had orders for Raider School at Bragg but they were canceled when I got my orders for Vietnam.
"Recondos" HHC 2/502 Inf, 101st Abn Div, RVN, 1967, (I'm the second guy from the right).
This is the first I've heard of Recondo School being an NCO school (not doubting it, just didn't know). NCO schools weren't as popular back then as they are now, I made it to E-7 without attending any NCO schools (had to go to OCS because I couldn't pass the SQT test for E-8).
I was in the 82nd prior to going to Vietnam, the 82nd recon school was "Raider School". I had orders for Raider School at Bragg but they were canceled when I got my orders for Vietnam.
"Recondos" HHC 2/502 Inf, 101st Abn Div, RVN, 1967, (I'm the second guy from the right).
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This is a good thing. The Marines of the original Raiders have not only the right, but the duty to bestow their good name upon whomever they see fit. If these new Marines are not befitting of such an honor, there are no men befitting of it. The history of tradition in the Marines is world renowned, and this will carry that tradition well into the depths of the 21st century.
Semper Fidelis, Semper Superbia
Semper Fidelis, Semper Superbia
For the time the mindset of Carlson and Edson was at odds with tradition and likely part of the reason for their demise. Gung Ho was the Red Chinese war cry for "Work Together" against a common enemy.
I think one or both spent time with Mao's army in the 30's and really adopted the idea of a loose chain of command. Saluting, "Yes sir/No sir", badges of rank were not important to the Raider ethos.
Id say the natural leadership ability of Carlson/Edson allowed for this to be successful. The troops were going to follow Carlson and Edson no matter what their rank was. On top of that it takes disciplined troops to not take advantage of that.
Cant imagine its much different these days in special units and Im sure they still fight that same resistance from the traditionalists.
Whether trained in Scotland, San Diego or Currahee who wouldnt want to be associated with the accomplishments of the predecessors. Im glad the surviving WWII Raiders are seeing their colors reborn.
I think one or both spent time with Mao's army in the 30's and really adopted the idea of a loose chain of command. Saluting, "Yes sir/No sir", badges of rank were not important to the Raider ethos.
Id say the natural leadership ability of Carlson/Edson allowed for this to be successful. The troops were going to follow Carlson and Edson no matter what their rank was. On top of that it takes disciplined troops to not take advantage of that.
Cant imagine its much different these days in special units and Im sure they still fight that same resistance from the traditionalists.
Whether trained in Scotland, San Diego or Currahee who wouldnt want to be associated with the accomplishments of the predecessors. Im glad the surviving WWII Raiders are seeing their colors reborn.
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