Massive runout on factory Berger 230 gr Hybrid OTM Tactical bullets

[Bruce K]

I'm waiting for my Accuracy International AXSR in 300 Norma Mag to arrive and bought five boxes of Berger 230 gr Hybrid OTM Tactical bullets to try out my rifle and for the Lapua brass. While looking at Micron dies from Bullet Central I was debating between their bushing vs arbor seating die and decided to check the runout on the factory Berger ammo.

I only randomly tested bullets from three boxes and the runout on a small sample set was .004 to .011 runout, so bad on some you didn't need a concentricity gauge to see the runout.

Here is the video.

 

[ShtrRdy]

You'll have to see how it shoots.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I see run out of/in your case.

 

[Bruce K]

You'll have to see how it shoots.

I bought this ammo for my Accuracy International AXSR that is enroute and for the Lapua brass until I start reloading. If my dies arrive before I got shooting I may run them through the bullet seating die.

Looking at the Micro arbor or bushing seating dies. I'm getting their sizing die as well.

 

[RegionRat]

I will suggest you shoot them according to a sort. Anything with a runout greater than 0.004" versus below, and see what happens.

Back in the stone age, we made our brass from poor quality surplus and commercial brass. The brass naturally had lots of runout so we inspected and sorted down to get better performance.

During my youth, we tested and found that there was a threshold where if the runout was below it then the performance didn't suffer.

It really depends on the bullet, the chamber, and the bbl and that determines where that threshold sits, but in general we never saw a situation where runout needed to be perfect and it took more than 0.004" for most 30 cals to care.

Since we are just passing time, I will add we also ran experiments where we would mark the cases according to the runout, then insert them by hand with the mark always at the 12 o'clock position, and force them in with a pinky so they would stay in that orientation as the bolt closed. This was also seen to make an impact on performance.

I would take note of the ones with large runout, just to make sure that after being fired that brass is okay. Lapua brass is generally very good, so with luck that cartridge just got damaged and the brass will recover after a firing cycle. Good Luck and In for the range reports.

 

[hewlett260]

Unless you're using it for short range benchrest, I wouldn't worry about it. Inconsistency in the powder charge will show more than the amount of run-out you're measuring. Once it's fired, correct the issue that's likely in the brass with a full length die and a mandrel. I would suspect there may be more than a couple thou thickness variation on the necks making the measurements exaggerated as well.

 

[Threadcutter308]

You've got a lot of extraneous information in your post. Let's simplify things;

You bought some Berger LOADED OTM Tactical bullets Ammunition and decided to test them for runout (?).

We can see that the runout is between .004" and .011".

Based on what I saw in your video (and your post), there is no way of knowing how much (if any) runout any of the BULLETS themselves have. My guess is very little to none. I did actually see some runout/lack of concentricity on the neck of the brass.

I guess I'm not surprised to see that brand new (UNFIRED) AMMUNITION has runout. The brass has never been fired and has never been fireformed to a chamber. Problem number two (and in my opinion, more likely) is that the ammunition was/is shipped/handled in shipment by ham fisted gorillas. Boxes have probably been dropped from 3 to 4 feet on hard surfaces, multiple times. Ammunition with that heavy of a bullet is bound to have concentricity problems, just because of shipping/(mis)handling.

Could it be that it left the Berger factory that way ? Yes. Likely ? IMO, pretty unlikely.

Not much you can do about it but shoot it (fireforming the brass) and reload it with high quality dies and pay careful attention to your relaoding process(es)

 

[straightshooter1]

I'm waiting for my Accuracy International AXSR in 300 Norma Mag to arrive and bought five boxes of Berger 230 gr Hybrid OTM Tactical bullets to try out my rifle and for the Lapua brass. While looking at Micron dies from Bullet Central I was debating between their bushing vs arbor seating die and decided to check the runout on the factory Berger ammo.

I only randomly tested bullets from three boxes and the runout on a small sample set was .004 to .011 runout, so bad on some you didn't need a concentricity gauge to see the runout.

Here is the video.

Are you there's an issue with the bullet's concentricity or how they sit into the case necks . . . or both?

I'd suspect that there's a combination of things that produces that kind of extreme runout (e.g. neck wall thickness variance, a lot of neck tension, seater pin not square on the bullet's ogive, case neck has a lot of runout). I'd check those things to see what's going on.

 

[Bruce K]

Are you there's an issue with the bullet's concentricity or how they sit into the case necks . . . or both?

I'd suspect that there's a combination of things that produces that kind of extreme runout (e.g. neck wall thickness variance, a lot of neck tension, seater pin not square on the bullet's ogive, case neck has a lot of runout). I'd check those things to see what's going on.

This is factory ammo from Berger.

 

[Bruce K]

You've got a lot of extraneous information in your post. Let's simplify things;

You bought some Berger LOADED OTM Tactical bullets Ammunition and decided to test them for runout (?).

We can see that the runout is between .004" and .011".

Based on what I saw in your video (and your post), there is no way of knowing how much (if any) runout any of the BULLETS themselves have. My guess is very little to none. I did actually see some runout/lack of concentricity on the neck of the brass.

I guess I'm not surprised to see that brand new (UNFIRED) AMMUNITION has runout. The brass has never been fired and has never been fireformed to a chamber. Problem number two (and in my opinion, more likely) is that the ammunition was/is shipped/handled in shipment by ham fisted gorillas. Boxes have probably been dropped from 3 to 4 feet on hard surfaces, multiple times. Ammunition with that heavy of a bullet is bound to have concentricity problems, just because of shipping/(mis)handling.

Could it be that it left the Berger factory that way ? Yes. Likely ? IMO, pretty unlikely.

Not much you can do about it but shoot it (fireforming the brass) and reload it with high quality dies and pay careful attention to your relaoding process(es)

Points well taken and I should not post in

You've got a lot of extraneous information in your post. Let's simplify things;

You bought some Berger LOADED OTM Tactical bullets Ammunition and decided to test them for runout (?).

We can see that the runout is between .004" and .011".

Based on what I saw in your video (and your post), there is no way of knowing how much (if any) runout any of the BULLETS themselves have. My guess is very little to none. I did actually see some runout/lack of concentricity on the neck of the brass.

I guess I'm not surprised to see that brand new (UNFIRED) AMMUNITION has runout. The brass has never been fired and has never been fireformed to a chamber. Problem number two (and in my opinion, more likely) is that the ammunition was/is shipped/handled in shipment by ham fisted gorillas. Boxes have probably been dropped from 3 to 4 feet on hard surfaces, multiple times. Ammunition with that heavy of a bullet is bound to have concentricity problems, just because of shipping/(mis)handling.

Could it be that it left the Berger factory that way ? Yes. Likely ? IMO, pretty unlikely.

Not much you can do about it but shoot it (fireforming the brass) and reload it with high quality dies and pay careful attention to your relaoding process(es)

Got me on ammunition vs bullets. While I reload I've checked other unfired factory ammunition and don't recall runout being more than .002 to .004.

Again I bought this ammo to have ammunition to shoot in a rifle still in transit and for the Lapua brass I will reload.

As to how this happened can't be known, it was just surprising. If my arbor seating die arrives soon I can see if resetting them makes a difference.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Points well taken and I should not post in

Got me on ammunition vs bullets. While I reload I've checked other unfired factory ammunition and don't recall runout being more than .002 to .004.

Again I bought this ammo to have ammunition to shoot in a rifle still in transit and for the Lapua brass I will reload.

As to how this happened can't be known, it was just surprising. If my arbor seating die arrives soon I can see if resetting them makes a difference.

As I was typing my response above, it got me to thinking. On the other loaded ammunition that you've checked for runout, what caliber and bullet weight was it ? I would not be surprised to find out that smaller caliber/lighter bullet weight ammunition does not show as much runout. And, that's partly due to the smaller diameter bullet. But, the biggest variable is how well (or how badly) it is handeld during shipping. All things being equal, I'd think that factory loaded 69 gr .223 ammo would show less runout than factory loaded 240gr. 30 caliber, something, something.

I only handload for center fire and I only use Lapua brass. I don't recall ever checking the brass for runout prior to loading for the first time. I wouldn't be surprised to find that it had some minor degree of runout. But after the first or second firing, I'd expect the runout to almost disappear. IIRC, when I load .308W w/168 gr HPBTM, I get less than.003" runout, usually between .001" and .002". That's on the 3rd, 4th, or 5th firing.

I wouldn't worry too much about "resetting" them prior to firing them. I'd fire form them once or twice, then get out the microscope and see what's going on as you are handloading them.

 

[straightshooter1]

This is factory ammo from Berger.

Ohhhh. Well, that makes a lot more sense.

I've found that kind of issue with any of the "Match Grade" factory ammo I've fired. As I like to experiment to find where I might make improvement with this or that, I taken half a box of such factory ammo, carefully pulled the bullets, weighed the powder and recharged the cases with more uniform powder charges (divided the powder by 10 and used that as the target weight), then seated the bullets back in to average factory seating depth. My TIR's were .003 to .005, AND. . . these redone cartridges did almost as well and my typical hand loads (certainly, way better than the remainder 10 cartridges of the box).

 

[OREGUN]

So this is essentially break in ammo that you are also using generate brass for reloading?

So shoot it as is. It’s equally likely that you’ll make things worse in some way as improve it by screwing around with it.

Once you have a supply of once fired brass and a baseline of how it shoots with that horrific factory ammo you can decide if you are indeed capable of making ammo that shoots better.

Philosophically speaking, if you can’t or won’t reload, to the extent that you’ve chosen to shoot factory ammo, what’s the point in measuring anything about it other than its velocity? It is what it is.