Master Class in handgun shooting

308pirate

Gunny Sergeant
Belligerents
Apr 25, 2017
10,564
12,643
219
If you want to learn something, forget that you know anything about handgun shooting and pay attention to this


I don't know why people waste money on "tactical" trainers to learn to shoot when people like Ben Stoeger are available.
 

308pirate

Gunny Sergeant
Belligerents
Apr 25, 2017
10,564
12,643
219
Notice the absence of tactical turtling, ultra high and forward support hand placement on the gun, and over aggressive elbow and shoulder rotation in Ben's shooting.

His fluid and effortless technique makes a mockery of all the tactidouchebags out there in 9 Line, Grunt Syle, and Affliction t shirts
 
  • Like
Reactions: 427Cobra

PBWalsh

Isaiah 40:25-31
Belligerents
Feb 10, 2017
1,472
676
219
26
Central AL
If you don't have sleeve tattoos, you cant teach tAcTiCaL cool guy stuff!!

Haha, just subbed to his channel, didn’t even know he had a channel. His accelerator drill video is great, dude is smoking targets, gets pissed for throwing two C zone hits at 25y, all while doing it off his back porch in sandals.

 
  • Like
Reactions: 308pirate

Kamerad

Online Training Member
Online Training Access
Belligerents
Minuteman
Oct 12, 2019
628
997
99
W
Notice the absence of tactical turtling, ultra high and forward support hand placement on the gun, and over aggressive elbow and shoulder rotation in Ben's shooting.

His fluid and effortless technique makes a mockery of all the tactidouchebags out there in 9 Line, Grunt Syle, and Affliction t shirts
Which tactical turtle hurt your feelings?
 

308pirate

Gunny Sergeant
Belligerents
Apr 25, 2017
10,564
12,643
219
If you don't have sleeve tattoos, you cant teach tAcTiCaL cool guy stuff!!

Haha, just subbed to his channel, didn’t even know he had a channel. His accelerator drill video is great, dude is smoking targets, gets pissed for throwing two C zone hits at 25y, all while doing it off his back porch in sandals.

Let me show you a pair of videos that illustrate your point perfectly

Larry Vickers and Chen Lee taking money from some foreign-sounding dudes who get all kitted out with bullshit tactical warbelts, IFAKs, and dump bags and all shoot Glocks. Because if you don't shoot a Glock you ain't shit, right? Watch the constant stream of failbus shooting full of mistakes and crappy technique that go completely uncorrected. The only feedback is tactical masturbatory comments like "good hits" or some such bullshit. Listen to their times. I can beat those motherfuckers with a god damed K frame and some speedloaders. My El Pres time with a wheel gun hovers around the 15 sec mark, not great but fuck me.....not nearly 20 seconds.

Now do you think Larry Vickers or Chen Lee can rip a sub 4 second El Presidente? I don't. Who would you hire to teach you to shoot? Those two fatboys or this guy? OBTW, he did that with a Beretta 92:

You should stop by his online store and pick up some of his dry fire and live fire drill books. They are money.....https://benstoegerproshop.com/
 
Last edited:

Bolo

Apprentice of Disaster
Minuteman
May 26, 2020
51
67
24
New York
Now do you think Larry Vickers or Chen Lee can rip a sub 4 second El Presidente? I don't. Who would you hire to teach you to shoot? Those two fatboys or this guy? OBTW, he did that with a Beretta 92:
Wut, no love for the 92? I won a fair number of trophies in Interservice and Combat Pistol matches with that puppy. Other than being 9 sillymeter, I never understood the hate.

BTW, thanks for that Tactical Turtle reference. Laughed my ass off when I found YT videos of it. First time I've heard that name, but not the first time I've seen that goofy-ass crap. Used to smack my troops upside the k-pot with a range paddle when I saw that stance.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: 308pirate

308pirate

Gunny Sergeant
Belligerents
Apr 25, 2017
10,564
12,643
219
Wut, no love for the 92? I won a fair number of trophies in Interservice and Combat Pistol matches with that puppy. Other than being 9 sillymeter, I never understood the hate.

BTW, thanks for that Tactical Turtle reference. Laughed my ass off when I found YT videos of it. First time I've heard that name, but not the first time I've seen that goofy-ass crap. Used to smack my troops upside the k-pot with a range paddle when I saw that stance.
I dig DA/SA autos. I'm a CZ die hard (particularly for the P-07 and P-09) but I've had my eye for an M9A3 for a while.

I've had a Glock 17 and a pair of M&P9s V1.0 about 10 years ago, then most recently a P-10F that I bought last November and put just over 5500 rounds through it trying to get used to striker triggers. FML but I just can't shoot a trigger with a hard wall at speed. As soon as I sell it and the P-10C that I foolishly bought for carry, I'll never own another striker pistol again.

The comment was a dig at all the tools who think DA/SA pistols are somehow obsolete or slow just cause they can't run them.
 
Last edited:

PBWalsh

Isaiah 40:25-31
Belligerents
Feb 10, 2017
1,472
676
219
26
Central AL
The M9a3 does have a pretty sight picture. The very fine front post was a nice touch. In at least the one I rented, the trigger was decently smooth as well. I actually kinda liked the pistol from what I remember. That slide mounted safety though was a big no go. Safeties are not needed on DA/SA guns.

Definitely not trading in my CZ S2 for anything though. Wouldn’t mind picking up a P-07 or P-09, but I’m pretty invested into the S2 now, and need a spare.
 

308pirate

Gunny Sergeant
Belligerents
Apr 25, 2017
10,564
12,643
219
That slide mounted safety though was a big no go. Safeties are not needed on DA/SA guns.
I agree with you 100%. Luckily, converting a Beretta 92 from FS (decocker/safety) to G (spring loaded decocker) configuration is pretty easy and not too expensive.


I know, I know, you shouldn't have to. But because the .mil has this retarded fascination with thumb safeties on pistols, here we are.
 

Bolo

Apprentice of Disaster
Minuteman
May 26, 2020
51
67
24
New York
I dig DA/SA autos. I'm a CZ die hard (particularly for the P-07 and P-09) but I've had my eye for an M9A3 for a while.

I've had a Glock 17 and a pair of M&P9s V1.0 about 10 years ago, then most recently a P-10F that I bought last November and put just over 5500 rounds through it trying to get used to striker triggers. FML but I just can't shoot a trigger with a hard wall at speed. As soon as I sell it and the P-10C that I foolishly bought for carry, I'll never own another striker pistol again.

The comment was a dig at all the tools who think DA/SA pistols are somehow obsolete or slow just cause they can't run them.
I feel ya. I grew up on a CZ-75, and had the SP-01 on my shortlist until they discontinued it.
Personally, I fixed the one shortcoming of the 92 by getting a 96... not gonna lie, I'm not double-tapping and keeping both rounds in the 5-ring with the .40. But I didn't get that one for punching holes in paper.

Worst one I ever shot on a combat course was a NY State Police G19 with the "Trooper Trigger". They were specially made so a trooper didn't get all trigger-happy (yay nanny state). Nothing can quite compare to the suckitude of running the course with an 11-pound striker.
 

308pirate

Gunny Sergeant
Belligerents
Apr 25, 2017
10,564
12,643
219
I feel ya. I grew up on a CZ-75, and had the SP-01 on my shortlist until they discontinued it.
Personally, I fixed the one shortcoming of the 92 by getting a 96... not gonna lie, I'm not double-tapping and keeping both rounds in the 5-ring with the .40. But I didn't get that one for punching holes in paper.

Worst one I ever shot on a combat course was a NY State Police G19 with the "Trooper Trigger". They were specially made so a trooper didn't get all trigger-happy (yay nanny state). Nothing can quite compare to the suckitude of running the course with an 11-pound striker.
The SP-01 is definitely not discontinued. Both the safety and decocker versions are in the 2020 CZ catalog and website.

An 11 lb Glock trigger? WTF
 

Bolo

Apprentice of Disaster
Minuteman
May 26, 2020
51
67
24
New York
The SP-01 is definitely not discontinued. Both the safety and decocker versions are in the 2020 CZ catalog and website.
Shoulda clarified that... I saw they discontinued the 40 Cal chambering. Yes I am a fanboi and proud to admit it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 308pirate

CrabsandFootball

Banhammer
Banned !
Minuteman
Apr 28, 2020
621
504
99
If you want to learn something, forget that you know anything about handgun shooting and pay attention to this


I don't know why people waste money on "tactical" trainers to learn to shoot when people like Ben Stoeger are available.
Some of those tactical shooters are masters class USPA/IPSC who also happened to founded IDPA, and are masters there as well.

Many of these guys were trained by the likes of Rob letham, Rob Vogal, E. Langdon and others.

Comparing gamers to actual warriors just makes it easy to laugh at you.
 

CrabsandFootball

Banhammer
Banned !
Minuteman
Apr 28, 2020
621
504
99
Let me show you a pair of videos that illustrate your point perfectly

Larry Vickers and Chen Lee taking money from some foreign-sounding dudes who get all kitted out with bullshit tactical warbelts, IFAKs, and dump bags and all shoot Glocks. Because if you don't shoot a Glock you ain't shit, right? Watch the constant stream of failbus shooting full of mistakes and crappy technique that go completely uncorrected. The only feedback is tactical masturbatory comments like "good hits" or some such bullshit. Listen to their times. I can beat those motherfuckers with a god damed K frame and some speedloaders. My El Pres time with a wheel gun hovers around the 15 sec mark, not great but fuck me.....not nearly 20 seconds.

Now do you think Larry Vickers or Chen Lee can rip a sub 4 second El Presidente? I don't. Who would you hire to teach you to shoot? Those two fatboys or this guy? OBTW, he did that with a Beretta 92:

You should stop by his online store and pick up some of his dry fire and live fire drill books. They are money.....https://benstoegerproshop.com/
What is he supposed to say? Its a basic introductory pistol course. You have people in the class with zero formal training and little experience. The whole point of that class (which is only 1 or 2 days) is to teach people the basics and fundamentals. Having taking this exact class you will have a range of shooters from I don't know how to load this to experienced Mil/LE to competition shooters. The goal is to get accurate hits on target as fast as you can. You expect someone with little to no training or time on drills to become a master in a day? Are you fucking high?

They also provide advanced courses and specific tailored classes to units/organizations who want it. You won't see that advertised on their site, the same way most top trainers don't tell you when and where they giving a Delta Platoon or SF A team a class.

Some of you fucking people are so jealous and have such an inferiority complex about real world training you either can't do or can't afford , you look for any bull shit reason to tear it down.

Having seen Larry shoot live (not on camera which he does not allow because he drops F bombs and crude ass remarks the whole time, and doesn't need grief from sponsors and his TV people. Surprised he let this one go or he didn't know about it. Saw him rip a LEO a new asshole for trying to film), I don't think anyone would have an issue with his skills. Being a former Delta Assaulter, and basically being the units small arms expert, I'm going to go with he forgot more about firearms and pistol shooting than most master and grand master shooters.

Larry will also be the first to tell you the best shooters in the world are the likes of Leatham , Langdon, ect. Being a shooter is just one skill in a list of hundreds you need to be proficient at in the special operations world.
 

308pirate

Gunny Sergeant
Belligerents
Apr 25, 2017
10,564
12,643
219
Some of those tactical shooters are masters class USPA/IPSC who also happened to founded IDPA, and are masters there as well.

Many of these guys were trained by the likes of Rob letham, Rob Vogal, E. Langdon and others.

Comparing gamers to actual warriors just makes it easy to laugh at you.
Comparing the IDPA founders to the guy who is the current and eight-time Production national champion makes it easy to laugh at you.

You probably don't realize this but the gap between the majority of Grand Master and the people who dominate at the national and world level is fucking enormous.

When it comes to SHOOTING skill, which is what this thread is about, very few people in the world and nobody associated with IDPA can touch Ben Stoeger. And he's a pretty effective teacher as well.

Nobody's talking about tactics or fighting with a handgun. Except maybe you. In which case this isn't the thread for you.
 

CrabsandFootball

Banhammer
Banned !
Minuteman
Apr 28, 2020
621
504
99
Comparing the IDPA founders to the guy who is the current and eight-time Production national champion makes it easy to laugh at you.

You probably don't realize this but the gap between the majority of Grand Master and the people who dominate at the national and world level is fucking enormous.

When it comes to SHOOTING skill, which is what this thread is about, very few people in the world and nobody associated with IDPA can touch Ben Stoeger. And he's a pretty effective teacher as well.

Nobody's talking about tactics or fighting with a handgun. Except maybe you. In which case this isn't the thread for you.
No one cares about faggot gun games.

You are the one who brought up tactical trainers and were trashing them. It just shows how little you actually know.
 

CrabsandFootball

Banhammer
Banned !
Minuteman
Apr 28, 2020
621
504
99
You also have the fucking balls to call out a retired delta member Fat. Someone who is fucked up physically from years of injuries and the lifestyle.

What have you EVER fucking done for this country? Go ahead show us your 214, tell us how you know better.
 

slothlacrosse

Sergeant
Belligerents
Oct 19, 2010
1,167
150
169
Now do you think Larry Vickers or Chen Lee can rip a sub 4 second El Presidente? I don't. Who would you hire to teach you to shoot? Those two fatboys or this guy?
I don't think Chen Lee is or professes to be an instructor of any kind. If my vague knowledge of online fuckery is correct, he's just a dude who buys a lot of guns and takes a bunch of classes.

Physically comparing Stoeger and Vickers is beyond stupid. You're talking about a HUGE age difference. I think a 70-something with many years of service should be allowed to eat/drink/do whatever he wants. But maybe you're metrics for a shooting instructor are split times and BMI.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CrabsandFootball

308pirate

Gunny Sergeant
Belligerents
Apr 25, 2017
10,564
12,643
219
You also have the fucking balls to call out a retired delta member Fat. Someone who is fucked up physically from years of injuries and the lifestyle.

What have you EVER fucking done for this country? Go ahead show us your 214, tell us how you know better.
I don't believe I owe you an explanation of any fucking kind
 

CrabsandFootball

Banhammer
Banned !
Minuteman
Apr 28, 2020
621
504
99
I don't think Chen Lee is or professes to be an instructor of any kind. If my vague knowledge of online fuckery is correct, he's just a dude who buys a lot of guns and takes a bunch of classes.

Physically comparing Stoeger and Vickers is beyond stupid. You're talking about a HUGE age difference. I think a 70-something with many years of service should be allowed to eat/drink/do whatever he wants. But maybe you're metrics for a shooting instructor are split times and BMI.
Larry is only like 55-57ish, but has the body of a 70 year old. He was a big dude when I took his class a few years but could still move and shoot. I remember him eating a bag of grapes at lunch while we destroyed some Jimmy Johns. He was trying. He has lost alot of his weight since then.

Its hard to eat healthy and work out when you are traveling all the time, and out in the sun on your feet all day.

You see it with guys who are in Ranger Battalion for their career. 32-35 year old E7's with white hair and broken bodies. They look like they are in their 50s

And as hard as Batt is on your body, its not Delta's OPTEMPO.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fig

gearguywb

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Mar 17, 2018
452
100
49
I have a bit of a weird background because I have been both....the tactical guy and a USPSA national/international champion. Taught for a few years at a school at Ft. Bragg.

The best operators learn from wherever they can. The top tier pistol shooters have redefined possibilities and expectations of what can be done with a handgun.

Tactics are just that......but it is never a bad thing to be able to hit a target faster, and with more accuracy.
 

gearguywb

Sergeant of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Mar 17, 2018
452
100
49
You can go fuck yourself. Someone's military record means jack shit to me.
Thats a bit harsh don't you think?

I get that you hate anyone thats been in the military (from your "jack shit" comment), what does mean something to you then?
 

Fig

Janitor of the Hide
Belligerents
Minuteman
Mar 15, 2018
5,560
11,279
119
The Most Dangerous City in the USA
Not that I'm in this pissing match, but he is a veteran and was an officer.

I don't care what it is, in my experience whatever the new shit, new gear, and new thinking is going on in the civilian world it's way fucking better that what the military procurement system and the last war hands to expendables. That's why so many tier one outfits have generous open purchase procedures and aren't stuck with milsuck gear and tactics. My buddy in Durango trains a lot of tier one guys in climbing and mountaineering, because he knows a hell of a lot more about it than anyone serving or who served. Even though he never served he has written several books and is a hell of a good teacher. They know where to get properly trained.

308Pirate rubs me the wrong way all the time, but I can excuse it because he's just an asshole. Some of my best friends are assholes. ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zorrosdens

slothlacrosse

Sergeant
Belligerents
Oct 19, 2010
1,167
150
169
That's why so many tier one outfits have generous open purchase procedures and aren't stuck with milsuck gear and tactics.
You'd be amazed what you can get on a conventional unit's property book.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fig

strikeeagle1

Private
Belligerents
Feb 13, 2017
470
288
69
I was going to jump in early on this thread. Happy I didn't.
It's been entertaining to watch from the grandstands though!