• The Shot You’ll Never Forget Giveaway - Enter To Win A Barrel From Rifle Barrel Blanks!

    Tell us about the best or most memorable shot you’ve ever taken. Contest ends June 13th and remember: subscribe for a better chance of winning!

    Join contest Subscribe

Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

#2
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

Better something than nothing, but he really needed to think before going up against four shooters with only a 2" revolver. That was a job for a shotgun, with a partner.

<span style="font-weight: bold">ETA:</span> I just watched the video, and I can't say that I would have been so eager to spill my guts to a reporter in the aftermath, especially to make accusations against one ethnicity. And why were there still so many cops there still processing with the reporter traipsing around?
 
#4
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

Guy sounds like an overzealous tool.
So much of just the printed article is wrong on so many levels.
If his or another's life was endagereed by the perps I'd consider his actions valorous.
Over property I'd use what little training I have to be a good witness.

He is really clear that he was unaware of anything but the perps and shooting them-thank god he didn't kill anyone downrange becasue he sure didn't sound like he was aware of anything else.

Easy to armchair QB though....
Don;t know if I'd do different, but I do know I'd not be making the statements he was.
 
#7
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

He had no backup. Why the <span style="font-style: italic">hell</span> did he wade into this anyway when there was no apparent intent on the part of the robbery team to do anything more than snatch the cases and run? I wonder if someone isn't sitting there looking at the file mulling the idea of charges.
 
#10
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

I admit what he did was not thought out too well but I think its time we start taking control...someone to take action and make others realize there are consequences for their actions.
Too many people do what they want and know nothing is gonna happen to them.
Maybe its just me but I'm kinda tired of the way America is today.
 
#11
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

"I’m ex-military. Hell, I’m going over there."

What a moron... I'm ex-military and if I hear shots, I'm going the other way. Only cops should be heading for gun shots.
 
#12
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

<span style="font-weight: bold">Thalheimer, who has taught hundreds of people defensive shooting tactics at Sandy Thalheimer Defensive Gun School.

Thalheimer had nothing at stake financially. Still, he risked his life to stop the armed men

Thalheimer fired all five rounds from the pocket pistol he keeps in his truck,

Thalheimer said he couldn’t describe the suspects because he was concerned more about shooting the armed men

No one was injured as a result of the shots fired,

“Shooting is like racing — the person who can go the fastest with the least amount of mistakes wins,” he said.</span>


An instructor? Of what? Failure on every single level?
 
#13
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

First off, should've had more gun & men down. Second, him talking like that was stupid. Third, he has a right to protect his person and, I believe, his business and property in FL. Finally, at least he did something that involved launching lead at the criminals, which they deserved.
 
#14
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

WOW!!! LEGENDARY FAIL ON ALL LEVELS!!!


legendfail.jpg
 
#15
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

Seems you guys are being kinda hard on the guy. Ya, the interview was stupid, He sounds like an idiot on camera, but right up to where he loosed a few rounds 'across the street' I was on board. That was a poor choice.

Guy on this board continually whine about people not taking responsibility and stepping up. Well here's a guy that steps up and you wanna bust his chops for it. Make up your mind.

Teaching defensive pistol classes and the 'Master Class' BS, whatever, its all paper till they re shooting back. Would you have done better? Oh wait, you wouldnt have been in the fight in the first place.
 
#16
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems you guys are being kinda hard on the guy. Ya, the interview was stupid, He sounds like an idiot on camera, but right up to where he loosed a few rounds 'across the street' I was on board. That was a poor choice.

Guy on this board continually whine about people not taking responsibility and stepping up. Well here's a guy that steps up and you wanna bust his chops for it. Make up your mind.

Teaching defensive pistol classes and the 'Master Class' BS, whatever, its all paper till they re shooting back. Would you have done better? Oh wait, you wouldnt have been in the fight in the first place. </div></div>

I realize that Texas has different standards for justifying a "guns free" situation, including the defense of property and possessions, and I'm not sure what the threshold is in Florida. Here, "fleeing felon" shootings are put under pretty hard scrutiny, even when the homicide is entirely justifiable and committed by a police officer. One such AAR and press release from a county DA in explaining a recent-ish no-bill: http://da.montcopa.org/da/cwp/view,a,1625,q,75706.asp
 
#17
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

I think you're missing CJs point. You're quoting law at him and he's saying many here lament the law and the general mentality of apathy so when someone isn't apathetic or restricted by illogical or emasculating laws people here have behaved contradictorily.

I admire the guys balls for trying to stop criminals getting away. His stated intention was to incapacitate their vehicle and then retreat, not to open fire in the first instance.

I really don't think I'd have had the balls to do it myself.
 
#18
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems you guys are being kinda hard on the guy. Ya, the interview was stupid, He sounds like an idiot on camera, but right up to where he loosed a few rounds 'across the street' I was on board. That was a poor choice.

Guy on this board continually whine about people not taking responsibility and stepping up. Well here's a guy that steps up and you wanna bust his chops for it. Make up your mind.

Teaching defensive pistol classes and the 'Master Class' BS, whatever, its all paper till they re shooting back. Would you have done better? Oh wait, you wouldnt have been in the fight in the first place. </div></div>

We also know officers have a different standard than civilians. Civilians can't ram a car because the guys in it have masks on. Nobodys life was in imminent danger. I need to protect my family and me. I would protect the life (not property) of an innocent, but I'm also staying out of jail to be able to provide for my family. $0.02
 
#19
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quickdraw40</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems you guys are being kinda hard on the guy. Ya, the interview was stupid, He sounds like an idiot on camera,<span style="color: #3366FF"> but right up to where he loosed a few rounds 'across the street' I was on board. </span>That was a poor choice.

Guy on this board continually whine about people not taking responsibility and stepping up. Well here's a guy that steps up and you wanna bust his chops for it. Make up your mind.

Teaching defensive pistol classes and the 'Master Class' BS, whatever, its all paper till they re shooting back. Would you have done better? Oh wait, you wouldnt have been in the fight in the first place. </div></div>

We also know officers have a different standard than civilians. Civilians can't ram a car because the guys in it have masks on. Nobodys life was in imminent danger. I need to protect my family and me. <span style="color: #3366FF">I would protect the life (not property) of an innocent, but I'm also staying out of jail to be able to provide for my family. $0.02 </span></div></div>

Full agreement here.

My "douche" remark comes from knowing that a supposedly knowledgable shooter unloaded a snubby without regard to downrange innocents, and especially when "at the "SUV" at a range than is not really in the back pocket 5-shot's ability. I don't know maybe the SUV was parked against a 20ft high concrete sound barrier wall all by itself-then I'd be down with spraying it with a carbine if shots came from it, but not knowing I gotta question it. His mindset recalling the events seemed to me to have a comlete lack of consideration-as if her were shooting paper IDPA in a pistol bay.....

As I said, I don't know what I would have done, but I thank the guy for giving me another scenario to run through in my head as a "what will I do if faced with...." mental training.

 
#20
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think you're missing CJs point. You're quoting law at him and he's saying many here lament the law and the general mentality of apathy so when someone isn't apathetic or restricted by illogical or emasculating laws people here have behaved contradictorily.

I admire the guys balls for trying to stop criminals getting away. His stated intention was to incapacitate their vehicle and then retreat, not to open fire in the first instance.

I really don't think I'd have had the balls to do it myself. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Teaching defensive pistol classes and the 'Master Class' BS, whatever, its all paper till they re shooting back. Would you have done better? Oh wait, you wouldnt have been in the fight in the first place.</div></div>

I politely sidestepped the unappreciated inference that most of us would have sucked six inches of tighty whities up our asses at the thought of getting into it with these people, and I made reference to an officer-involved shooting because CJ's info makes me think that he's somehow involved with law enforcement and that this might color his view of the shoot.

None of us have seen the scene diagram or know from where it was exactly that he engaged, if it was out the windshield, or if he's right handed and it was weak handed out the window thing towards the vehicle. We're still Monday morning QBing, but my assumption is that it was door-to-bumper distance at four people in or out of the black vehicle. Not a terribly long distance, but, as CJ pointed out, it's entirely different within the dynamics of a gun fight that you're trying to survive. Nonetheless, he could have presumed that these individuals were armed, whether or not he saw their pieces, and should have realized that, once he undertook what would otherwise be vehicular asaault, they might well have shot at him.
 
#21
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

My take is that article is the bullets from BG's didn't start coming until he rammed them with his car. Florida does have a Castle doctrine that allows you to protect your property - but to what degree? This case may come down to whether he owned the parking lot/leased it, or was it public domain (the article referred to "his" parking lot). In the store - somewhat better argument, in a parking lot with a fleeing SUV - not so much. It would have been time better spent to ID the vehicle & tags than start physical confrontation - but yes that is Monday morning armchair QBing.
This topic has come up many times before and the question is - would you use deadly force for property alone? Personally, my answer is no, I'll file my insurance claim thank you. If my life is in danger, different story. His life was not in danger until he rammed them with his vehicle.
Edit: This guy said he had "no financial interest" - the stolen jewelry had belonged to a salesmen in his store, how did he know that at the time of the incident?
 
#22
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Would you have done better? Oh wait, you wouldnt have been in the fight in the first place. </div></div>

CJ - you're feeling onry and just looking to stir the pot - right?

B/c unlike those that are paid to drive fast, shoot two mags fulls into a suspect and walk (NY), and beat up women and walk (Chicago) - Joe Average Citizen doesn't enjoy indemnity for playing hero. Therefore, while dumbshit Joe may see the merit to risking life and limb (at the expense of himself, his family, those who care about him, and innocents along the way); his older smarter brother average Joe sees the wisdom to being a good witness in an event that isn't immediately endangering a life and is in no way directly effecting himself.

Also what kinda 'defensive instructor' keeps a pocket rocket in the rig? Really - it wasn't a full size auto on your person, with at least one spare mag?

What kinda 'Master Class' shooter expends 5 rounds, doesn't hit shit, says he can't ident because he was focused on making the hits, and yet no one is injured (guess some of the basics of pistol craft like "front sight" went right out the window). No you weren't - just tell it like is - you failed on every level. Got it. I probably would have too with a J-frame. Then again, I don't rely on a J frame... that I keep in my glove box....in the parking lot - Mr INSTRUCTOR.

It is an affront to any quality instructor for this guy to call himself one. He failed on every level of mindset, prudence in the face of the law and circumstances surrounding the use of deadly force, and UPSA ought jerk his MC status just because he's a douche.

Dude's a joke.



Good luck

 
#23
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

Interesting thoughts here-
I am reminded of a few other threads where the LE have a high round count and few hits. Many here go on and on about how the average flat foot spends far less time shooting then they, the noble poster does.

Then there are the noble Instructors who post most humble yet most selfserving tomes about the work they do.

But bottomline is until the one way range becomes a two way range ALL masterblasters are potential douches. All have great speeches and numerous students who hang on every word.

I also take note that in another thread Ted Nugent gets great props for repeat offender dribble but in reality the scenerio plays out alot differently.

Glad no one was hurt, sad the masterblaster couldnt hit the broadside of a barn when it really counted and wonder what it does to the well trained militia part of our Constitution.

Well got a couple of hogs to drag out into the field as coyote bait, ya'll try and remember its all fun and games until its our ass in the grass.

Have Fun
 
#27
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OregonShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is what happens when you shoot faster than you can think. You miss on more than just one level.

+1 Douche </div></div>

This isn't a dig at anyone and I'm only using the quote above as illustration of my question:

How may who think this guy was a douche and a crap shot have actually been in a firefight where they were outnumbered and out gunned? Did they manage to place shots on target?

I'm just trying to gauge the criticism with poster's own real life experiences as I have none in regards to being in a fight and want a framework to see this whole episode through.

I have a handgun and I want to go to defensive shooting classes, so this is relevant to me and I imagine others who wish to attain a level of proficiency where if the skills are actually needed to defend life, they might be up to task.

Thanks and again, absolutely not trying to call anyone out.
 
#29
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks and again, absolutely not trying to call anyone out. </div></div>

Speaking for myself - Douche bag's shooting isn't the issue. Stressful? Umm yeah...I am betting all of us would have pretty low percentages with a J frame.

The issue is what this guy, or the media proclaims he represents - a DT Instructor and a Master Class shooter.

What he did was stupid - he put his life, and the lives of others on the line to prevent an insurance company from having to cut a settlement check; and usurping the Do Right Boys from making an arrest in a time and place so as to minimize risk to the innocents. He also keeps the weapon that he is relying on for self defense - a weapon that he certainly doesn't have nearly the same level of proficiency with as his comp blaster, off his body. Again - this isn't something advocated by a Pro.

He failed on every single level.

To be crystal clear - his getting involved and escalating it to the use of deadly force when no lives were on the line and it wasn't his beef - was stupid and reckless.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a handgun and I want to go to defensive shooting classes, so this is relevant to me and I imagine others who wish to attain a level of proficiency where if the skills are actually needed to defend life, they might be up to task</div></div>

Shooting is but one part - and arguably a very small part of the spectrum of defensive carry for private citizens.


Good luck
 
#30
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Shooting is but one part - and arguably a very small part of the spectrum of defensive carry for private citizens.
Good luck </div></div>

Interested in more details on this please. Can I assume you're referring to situation awareness/alertness and knowledge of the law relevant to CCW?
 
#31
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

I sure as hell wouldn't want my name and shit being plastered all over the news after something like that. Who's to say that the perps or their friends won't be coming to visit you now. Also I agree his statements after the fact are not very smart. Multiple shooters and all you have is a pocket pistol? Not very smart IMHO.
 
#32
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems you guys are being kinda hard on the guy. Ya, the interview was stupid, He sounds like an idiot on camera, but right up to where he loosed a few rounds 'across the street' I was on board. That was a poor choice.

Guy on this board continually whine about people not taking responsibility and stepping up. Well here's a guy that steps up and you wanna bust his chops for it. Make up your mind.

Teaching defensive pistol classes and the 'Master Class' BS, whatever, its all paper till they re shooting back. Would you have done better? Oh wait, you wouldnt have been in the fight in the first place. </div></div>
^^^This.

On the note about being a douche on camera, if anyone has had to talk into a camera with people sitting their expecting you to say something close to intelligent, it aint easy, trust me. Then to top it off, they take and cut the footage, to portray what THEY want you to think is being said, not what really got said.

I think this guy was well intended, maybe it wasnt thought through all the way, but good intended. Criminals commit crimes, because they know we are a society who will stand by and be witneses', that we will just tell the cops, so we can stay safe. This guy stepped up to the plate and did something about it. Hell, if no innocents were hurt, they outta give the bastard an award. Just think, if more people took action, the drop in crime would be significant.
 
#33
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

That's scary. He was lucky that he didn't get shot, or worse yet, any of his bullets struck an inocent bystanders. I was taught long ago, that using deadly force is only justified in iminent danger of your, or your love one's life, not for property. Let the police handle that.
 
#34
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Shooting is but one part - and arguably a very small part of the spectrum of defensive carry for private citizens.
Good luck </div></div>

Interested in more details on this please. Can I assume you're referring to situation awareness/alertness and knowledge of the law relevant to CCW? </div></div>

Yes - these are but elements of the same conversation. The subject is vast.


The theme that I LOVE from some here is that while the guy's performance failed miserably, while the guy is a total poser that certainly doesn't live his life according to the best practices advocated by Pros, while he put others in danger - somehow we should all give him a pass and or even pat him on the back. That trying to do something (no matter how dumb or how dangerous, or what a miserable crash and burn it was) equates to victory in and of itself. It isn't. If we all start from that perspective everything else about the event comes into focus.

It begs the question in my mind if those that advocate this line of thought extend that same 'everyone is a winner' mentality to Congress or the Fed - b/c, hey even if what they are doing is 100% wrong - at least they are trying - right?

How about if your daughter caught a slug in the face as a result of the gun fight he started? He should get a pass, and you should thank him for trying - right?


Good luck

 
#35
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How does master class shooter teach at a defensive school and cant hit shit? </div></div>

Simple. He probably hits very well in class and on the range. Maybe even in competition. Maybe he imparts the skills well to people, therefore he can teach defensive pistol school.

I mean, come on, its ALL theoretical until people start shooting back isnt it? You cant bring in guys to shoot at you (for real). *Some* classes use force on force training with Simunitions, but certainly not all of them.

How many guys out there teaching defensive pistol classes have actually been in a gunfight. Hell how many have come close? I know some great instructors, VERY well respected in the community, who have never even come CLOSE to a gunfight.

Does the guy represent himself well on camera? No. Did he make a bad choice? Maybe. Should he have been carrying more gun / ammo? Probably, but at least he had SOMETHING.
 
#36
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

The greatest complaint that I hear from not-quite-so-new shooters is that, while they appreciate the protection that a firearm can afford, they crave something lighter, smaller, and more easily drawn. They're ruled by ease and convenience, and so they gravitate towards inconsequentially-sized mousy pocket pistols that are either chambered in worthless calibers, or have woefully inadequate capacity and frames that transmit every iota of perceived recoil through the shooter's hand.

There's a reason that most of my shirts quickly develop little holes towards their tails at 4 and 8 pm, and it ain't convenience. If you think that you're ever gonna need to do a job, bring the right frigging tool, or at least bring the next thing to it. It may not quite fit into a Tommy Bahama lifestyle, but it's that much closer to not winding up tagged and in the morgue because they were prepared and you weren't.
 
#37
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

After all is said and done, there is a chance that those bad guys went back to their underground layer and while sipping a beer contemplated the fact that they survived a deadly encounter and asked themselves if this life of crime is worth it.

Na, who am I kidding. Never mind.
 
#38
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer G</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The greatest complaint that I hear from not-quite-so-new shooters is that, while they appreciate the protection that a firearm can afford, they crave something lighter, smaller, and more easily drawn. They're ruled by ease and convenience, and so they gravitate towards inconsequentially-sized mousy pocket pistols that are either chambered in worthless calibers, or have woefully inadequate capacity and frames that transmit every iota of perceived recoil through the shooter's hand.

There's a reason that most of my shirts quickly develop little holes towards their tails at 4 and 8 pm, and it ain't convenience. If you think that you're ever gonna need to do a job, bring the right frigging tool, or at least bring the next thing to it. It may not quite fit into a Tommy Bahama lifestyle, but it's that much closer to not winding up tagged and in the morgue because they were prepared and you weren't. </div></div>

Very Damned Good Point! "Concealed carry is not supposed to be comfortable, its supposed to be comforting" I dont know who said that but they were point on. An epiphany I had today, is how much difference a good holster makes for iwb. I had been carrying a comptac infidel, it got the job done but would leave bruises and marks on me from carrying a p220 in it. It didnt stop me from carrying though. I just got a milt sparks vm2 in the mail. All I can say is WOW, what a difference a different holster can make.
 
#39
Re: Master-Class Shooter involved in gunfight

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer G</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The greatest complaint that I hear from not-quite-so-new shooters is that, while they appreciate the protection that a firearm can afford, they crave something lighter, smaller, and more easily drawn. They're ruled by ease and convenience, and so they gravitate towards inconsequentially-sized mousy pocket pistols that are either chambered in worthless calibers, or have woefully inadequate capacity and frames that transmit every iota of perceived recoil through the shooter's hand.
</div></div>

I agree, something I learned from my drag racing days is, "There's no replacement for displacement." I carry a Sig P220 in a Desantis Viper and 4 spare mags.

One thing many people in this thread miss when they call the guy a noob is, it's really easy to shoot paper targets, it's hard as hell when they are shooting back. I don't care if you are a high master or not, hitting a what you are aiming at when multiple people are shooting at you is not easy.

I do second guess the guy as to why he got out of his truck and drew a snubby in the first place. His truck is a far better weapon than a snubby ever was, smash their car into pile of junk. It's really hard for the bad guys to shoot back when you are crushing the car they are in, in the mean time the police will be on the way while. Back to my original point about displacement, I drive a 7500 pound Duramax truck just in case.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Glassaholic
Rifle Scopes Alpha Class High Magnification 6-36/7-35 FFP Scope Review
Replies
126
Views
9K
Charcoal Victorious Alp
C
Topstrap
Results Topstraps October Timed Rimfire Challenge
Replies
0
Views
263
Topstrap
Topstrap
F
2024 Legion Memorial Run and Gun, Honoring the Fallen as a Family
Replies
13
Views
857
FatBoy
F
pangris
Battle Arms Development
Replies
19
Views
2K
pangris
pangris
B
Lessons Learned from a beginners perspective
Replies
20
Views
2K
91Eunozs
91Eunozs
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Merch
Alerts