What match grade 50 BMG ammo will cycle reliably in semi-auto 50 BMG detachable magazines such as in the Barrett M82A1? Looks like PMC X TAC match and Hornady 50 BMG A-MAX both have excellent BCs; but will they fire from a semi-auto?? Thanks.
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There is no reason that either of those won't work for you. I have some BMG ammo for sale in the PX, cheap.
I suggest you ask Barrett for a recommendation - beyond just their own ammo (or ask them what their customers have had problems with). Certainly they will have heard (repeatedly) what does NOT work well.
Myanmar, is the PMC X TAC the match grade 50 BMG? I think they make both March grade and a bronze line?
Yes did ask Barrett and they had some good suggestions as to ammo. Thanks
You might try thunderammo.com. I saw a listing for them on gunbroker. It looks like they load some custom match grade 50 bmg ammo.
FYI - before you drop a boat load of money on "Match Ammo" for any semi-auto .50 BMG, I would do some testing to see what you are really going to get?
I shot .50s with FCSA & NCSA, and the Semi-Autos like the 82s, did not do very well at all in terms of consistency or accuracy (1-2 MOA on Avg at best), especially compared to the bolt rifles.
A number of the guys were shooting "Plane Jane" factory ball ammo with them, because the difference in accuracy improvements that they were seeing with high dollar match ammo like the Hornady 750 AMAX, did not justify the difference in cost.
Something to consider and try out.
I shot .50s with FCSA & NCSA, and the Semi-Autos like the 82s, did not do very well at all in terms of consistency or accuracy (1-2 MOA on Avg at best), especially compared to the bolt rifles.
A number of the guys were shooting "Plane Jane" factory ball ammo with them, because the difference in accuracy improvements that they were seeing with high dollar match ammo like the Hornady 750 AMAX, did not justify the difference in cost.
Something to consider and try out.
Thanks LRShooter101. I will be shooting mainly M33 ball ammo. Jerry Hazlett will be loading up a few A MAX rounds as well to compare with the standard stuff. Since my barrel is only 24" I don't expect sub-MOA; but we'll see.
I have an m82 and I fire reloaded crap from pull down parts to rolling my own with new CBC brass and A maxes set to mag length.. 5.45 if memory serves..
There is a difference in accuracy. The A Maxes average not quite 1 moa tighter groups compared to my reloads or Federal ball ammo from Lake City.
I only use the 750 A max when I am shooting past 1000 because it does help with the hit miss ratio but by no means is an M82 a match gun. I get 1.5 moa with the A maxes, and 2.5 MOA with the regular ball ammo. That was after sending the rifle back to Barrett for a tune up and they tightened up/ replaced some of the older parts. It did come back better than new in regards to accuracy. Before, 3 MOA was the best I could do with it.
There is a difference in accuracy. The A Maxes average not quite 1 moa tighter groups compared to my reloads or Federal ball ammo from Lake City.
I only use the 750 A max when I am shooting past 1000 because it does help with the hit miss ratio but by no means is an M82 a match gun. I get 1.5 moa with the A maxes, and 2.5 MOA with the regular ball ammo. That was after sending the rifle back to Barrett for a tune up and they tightened up/ replaced some of the older parts. It did come back better than new in regards to accuracy. Before, 3 MOA was the best I could do with it.
Thanks RHunter for the info. My A MAX rounds will also be loaded to an OAL of 5.45". Will be interesting to see what I get from a 24" barrel. Dale
If you go strictly by BC, then the API and M33 ball should behave very similarly. If anything the M33 should give slightly better performance since it has a BC of 0.67 vs. the API which had a BC of only 0.65. Something else must be going on for you to see that much better performance from the API.
BC has nothing to do with accuracy. Unless you are analyzing the effect of better BC compensating for poor wind calls.
OK, but if BC has nothing to do with accuracy then why all the emphasis on high BC projectiles? It has to have more to it than just compensating for poor wind calls. What gives you the superior accuracy with API vs. standard M33? Just trying to understand here. I will definitely shoot the API ammo if it does better in my stick.
High BC = Longer effective range
The Bullets ability to retain momentum due to weight and aerodynamics
Two things slow a bullet down, Gravity and friction. In the absence of friction you have gravity, To buck gravity you need mass.
What flies further? A regular golf ball or a wiffle ball? Assuming both were hit with the same energy of course the mass of the regular golf ball will allow it to go further
What flies further? A spear or a rock that weigh the same? The spear has aerodynamics so it will fly further, the friction of air will slow the rock down.
Combine aerodynamics and mass you you have the best of two key physical properties needed to send a mass a great distance with a given amount of energy.
Had to edit this from my original post... just to make it easier to understand...
The Bullets ability to retain momentum due to weight and aerodynamics
Two things slow a bullet down, Gravity and friction. In the absence of friction you have gravity, To buck gravity you need mass.
What flies further? A regular golf ball or a wiffle ball? Assuming both were hit with the same energy of course the mass of the regular golf ball will allow it to go further
What flies further? A spear or a rock that weigh the same? The spear has aerodynamics so it will fly further, the friction of air will slow the rock down.
Combine aerodynamics and mass you you have the best of two key physical properties needed to send a mass a great distance with a given amount of energy.
Had to edit this from my original post... just to make it easier to understand...
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I have shot both in my m82 and I don't see a big difference between the two.
Although the API is cheaper because there is a shitload of API bullets for sale at any given time on Gunbroker.
If you buy API bullets, make sure you get bullets that have been sized and polished. I bought a can of 600 from a guy on there and after sorting I ended up with about 500 that were in great shape and the 150 or so that I have shot so far have done well. (As well as could be expected)
You do need to sort that pull down stuff, some have bad knife marks from being pulled. Don't waste your time with the bad ones, just chuck them.
On a side note...
I found a batch of new South African ball bullets on gunbroker and they shot well. I think they were around 690 grains...
Another pull down bullet that shoots well is the black tip AP. Those seem to be better made than the API and the ball... A good warning about shooting that AP stuff, don't shoot steel with it, If that hardened steel core does not go through the steel the ricochet can be deadly.. The ball ammo steel core does not seem to have the same problem with deflecting off steel targets like the hardened cores do.
The blue tip plain incendiary is a hoot if you can find it, it's getting pretty rare, I think that stuff was made in the 40' and 50's. If you are lucky enough to have access to a night range that stuff has a nice flash on impact, looks like an explosion. I'd alternate one round of that with one round of tracer in my 82 shooting a hard target.. makes for some fun night shooting. Obviously you would not do that where the risk of fire is high, I live in Florida, hard to catch a can of gas on fire here it rains so much.
Thanks for the additional info. Helps a lot.
As has been said, high BC bullets definitely have many advantages at long range. They can lead to longer, more accurate hits but by itself BC has nothing to do with accuracy. In fact, benchrest shooters going for the ultimate in accuracy at 200 yards use flatbase bullets as they stabilize quickly and give better accuracy at 200 yards instead of using high-BC boattail bullets.
As for the API I have always shot it straight out the can as military ammo and never experienced reloads made from API pulldowns. I did not know API was so common on the civilian market though seeing as how so many people flip their lids about civilians having armor-piercing bullets.
Anyone have any comparison to be made with RAUFOSS as far as accuracy and effects go? Do you guys see that available on the civilian market also?
As for the API I have always shot it straight out the can as military ammo and never experienced reloads made from API pulldowns. I did not know API was so common on the civilian market though seeing as how so many people flip their lids about civilians having armor-piercing bullets.
Anyone have any comparison to be made with RAUFOSS as far as accuracy and effects go? Do you guys see that available on the civilian market also?
You can buy a full can of RAUFOSS on Gunbroker for $7,200.. or singles at $65 each. It's accuracy would be the same as the API... The problem with the BARRETT M82 and accuracy does not have a lot to do with the bullet, it is the fact that it is recoil operated. If you are not familiar with one, the barrel moves back to cycle the bolt so basically the bolt carrier and barrel are floating in the receiver and held under forward tension by two springs the the front of the receiver. This design is not inherently accurate. It was built to snipe material at relatively short distances (to 500 yards) it was never meant to be a sniper rifle for personnel at 1200 yards. The M24A2 in 300 WM was the gun for that task.
I am sure RAUFOSS is not legal to own considering none was ever sold by the military as surplus and I doubt you can buy it directly from Nammo without some special permit due to the RDX in it so it's probably stolen military. But.. I have seen it for sale on Gunbroker for a couple years so I guess our government does not care if you own it or they are doing some shifty shit trying to set people up. I have seen Winchester made RAUFOSS and I doubt Winchester is selling that to the public...
At $65 a shot or $7,200 a can of 120, I'll pass. The API looks the same in the dark and does basically the same thing to steel for $2 a shot. RAUFOSS is probably a good choice if you are trying to shoot bad guys through concrete or block walls. That is what made it a good choice for the Barrett in Iraq and Afghanistan. Every structure there is either concrete or block and the RDX helped with penetration and blast through potential.
Its pretty rare to find API that is not a "reload". Even a lot of stuff the military shoots is loaded with recycled API bullets. When they would pull down API from the 50's 60's and 70's they would reuse the bullets in new production to save on cost. When you buy pulled API's you will often see two to 3 sets of pull marks on the same bullet from it being pulled down, reloaded, pulled down, reloaded, and pulled down a final 3rd time. Those are usually the ones you see that have not been resized and polished. The stuff that was resized and polished by companies like Talon was slated to be reloaded for the military and typically only has 1 set of pull marks. Better grades were kept, shitty grades were sold off first. When Talon went out of business that's when the good API's hit the market. (Talon Ordinance is not the same company)
I think Talon reloaded a lot of it after pulling it down and sold it off to the civilian market in 120 round cans loose since they were doing a lot of the pull down operations. What you think is preserved military surplus is actually pulled down and reloaded surplus sold in the same cans it came out of. Seems stupid but this is our government we are talking about. Clinton ordered all surplus ammo to be destroyed before being sold rather than simply sold off as surplus like the old 30-06 was through the CMP.
I am pretty familiar with the Barrett as that is me firing one while standing in my avatar, back in 2003. Not a fan of them though and I didn't bother to shoot it last time we took ours to the range a couple weeks ago. Let some new guys zero them and enjoy the experience.
Had no idea the RAUFOSS was so expensive and it would be highly risky to try selling it anyhow as I doubt Uncle Sam sees it as a legit item to sell or possess.
The statement about the API is interesting. I drew some API from a bunker at Fort Knox back in 2012 for training and it was date stamped 1943. Was still in the old wooden crates with wingnut style nuts on screws keeping it shut. Was surprised we had WW2 ammo still in circulation. Oldest thing I used before that was some Vietnam-era Claymores. Right now the API we have is Lake City Lot 12567. Headstamp, cardboard box, and the old-style sardine can with key don't have a date anywhere on them so I will probably Google the lot # and see how old this stuff is. Shoots just fine though.
Had no idea the RAUFOSS was so expensive and it would be highly risky to try selling it anyhow as I doubt Uncle Sam sees it as a legit item to sell or possess.
The statement about the API is interesting. I drew some API from a bunker at Fort Knox back in 2012 for training and it was date stamped 1943. Was still in the old wooden crates with wingnut style nuts on screws keeping it shut. Was surprised we had WW2 ammo still in circulation. Oldest thing I used before that was some Vietnam-era Claymores. Right now the API we have is Lake City Lot 12567. Headstamp, cardboard box, and the old-style sardine can with key don't have a date anywhere on them so I will probably Google the lot # and see how old this stuff is. Shoots just fine though.
My Google-foo is less than impressive but I could not find any info on the lot number I mentioned. Don't know if anyone has easy access to a list or anything but if not don't sweat it. At any rate, I found a site that said the sardine can that the ammo came in is Korean-war vintage. Nice to know they still give this stuff to soldiers in combat zones.
Yeah that stuff should have been demilled long ago, looks like someone did not want to do the paperwork. That stuff is corrosive as hell, they did not start using non corrosive primers until the early 50's... 52 I think is when SL switched over. That old BMG brass was good stuff though once you got the primer pockets sorted out.
At any rate, that's still crazy.. Shooting 70 year old ammo in the military....
in my early military days, I remember getting MCI "C" rations from the 1960's and this was the early 80's... It was a tossup of which was more crap, these new MRE things or botulism beans made when I was born. Somehow though I think I would rather shoot 70 year old ammo than eat 20 year old canned food.
Haha, me too.
I have had GREAT luck using pulled AP. The core is super stable and 700 grain (well 690). Anyways when they are run through the sizer they are much more accurate than 650 ball in my M96.
Raufoss is not illegal to own. It is correct that the military hasn't sold any but it is not correct that none has ever been legally sold. Some companies who have had military or orther govt contracts have legally purchased the ammunition for testing and any overage they had after tests were complete could legally be sold. Quite a few companies do testing on armor, aircraft and other material to determine penetration and flammability etc. Other companies test guns but while firing SLAP is something they do occasionally test I don't think they need to fire the Raufoss to qualify a firearm. It is not controlled ammo by any laws so it is possible to see it in the open market. The only controls are from the manufacturers who don't sell to the civilian open market.
There is quite a bit of factory loaded API out there though as you noted most of the US surplus stuff got pulled down and reloaded for sale to us peons. On the other hand there was quite a lot of ammo imported and it occasionally still comes in. A lot of that ammo was US made and given or sold as foreign aid to other countries. Once they're done with it the stuff can be reimported here and sold. So it is possible to find and buy actual factory loaded API here. API was the most commonly loaded bullet in military ammo as it is kind of a jack of all trades type. Ball is only used for training and production in the US is much lower than API. APIT is probably next in the number of rounds produced but it is newer and less has been surplussed around the world.
The pulled API bullets aren't worth a crap even if they are run through a sizer and polished. They tended to have the jackets damaged by the pullers and running them through the sizing die won't return the core to the center of bullet. Once damaged they're damaged. I've found in shooting them in the 510 whisper that I'm lucky to get 2 to 3 in groups at 100 yds with a flyer or two even further out. Switching to Hornadys AMAX bullet the group size drops back down below an inch. For blasting they are great fun and I shoot a lot of them. For accuracy I'd use bullets that are accurate and choices are the AMAX, PMCs match bullet and a variety of turned or swaged specialty bullets. None of them are cheap. The truth is that real accuracy isn't cheap or easy either.
My experience with the M82 and the M107 is that they aren't all that accurate. Great fun to shoot, not bad accuracy and a good way to annoy neighbors at shoots but definitely not sniper or benchrest types. Last shoot we went to in Wyoming my buddies were popping prairie dogs out to around 800 yds with the Barrets which is pretty impressive. On the other hand as a spotter I could see how close they were getting when they didn't hit and how inconsistent the misses were with both reloads using cheap components (pulldown) and quality match grade ammo with AMAX bullets. The bolt actions were much better at the job and took a lot fewer rounds to do the same job because they were more consistent and accurate. I do think you can improve the Barrets by using good ammo but only so far. If you at least start with good ammo you limit the excursions to what the rifle is good for.
Just my thoughts on the matter
Frank
There is quite a bit of factory loaded API out there though as you noted most of the US surplus stuff got pulled down and reloaded for sale to us peons. On the other hand there was quite a lot of ammo imported and it occasionally still comes in. A lot of that ammo was US made and given or sold as foreign aid to other countries. Once they're done with it the stuff can be reimported here and sold. So it is possible to find and buy actual factory loaded API here. API was the most commonly loaded bullet in military ammo as it is kind of a jack of all trades type. Ball is only used for training and production in the US is much lower than API. APIT is probably next in the number of rounds produced but it is newer and less has been surplussed around the world.
The pulled API bullets aren't worth a crap even if they are run through a sizer and polished. They tended to have the jackets damaged by the pullers and running them through the sizing die won't return the core to the center of bullet. Once damaged they're damaged. I've found in shooting them in the 510 whisper that I'm lucky to get 2 to 3 in groups at 100 yds with a flyer or two even further out. Switching to Hornadys AMAX bullet the group size drops back down below an inch. For blasting they are great fun and I shoot a lot of them. For accuracy I'd use bullets that are accurate and choices are the AMAX, PMCs match bullet and a variety of turned or swaged specialty bullets. None of them are cheap. The truth is that real accuracy isn't cheap or easy either.
My experience with the M82 and the M107 is that they aren't all that accurate. Great fun to shoot, not bad accuracy and a good way to annoy neighbors at shoots but definitely not sniper or benchrest types. Last shoot we went to in Wyoming my buddies were popping prairie dogs out to around 800 yds with the Barrets which is pretty impressive. On the other hand as a spotter I could see how close they were getting when they didn't hit and how inconsistent the misses were with both reloads using cheap components (pulldown) and quality match grade ammo with AMAX bullets. The bolt actions were much better at the job and took a lot fewer rounds to do the same job because they were more consistent and accurate. I do think you can improve the Barrets by using good ammo but only so far. If you at least start with good ammo you limit the excursions to what the rifle is good for.
Just my thoughts on the matter
Frank
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Pulled 690 AP sized on 5/8 A36 steel plate. 3 shot group at 300 yards. Beautiful sunny no wind day.
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Have any of you had any experience resizing API, APIT or tracers? I've been reluctant to do so for fear of detonation. Is it safe to do? What chemical compounds are used in the manufacture of API and tracers. Are they sensitive to pressure?
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