The rifle Remington LTR .308 with a 20" 1:12 barrel and we shoot FGMM 168g with a muzzle velocity of approx. 2600 fps. I would say the max effective range is between 1000 to 1200 yards but I am looking for some additional input and a more definitive answer on this subject. Thank you in advance.
- Thread starter remington patriot
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We need more information. What is "max effective range"? What is your altitude? What is your purpose? If you're shooting around sea level your round is most likely going subsonic probably before or right around 1000 yards.
Our primary AO is Northwest Florida so we are approximately 200 feet above sea level. I would say effective range would be what I was inquiring about instead of "max" effective range. Basically, what is the effective range capability of the .308 out of a 1:12 20" barrel.
Where in Northwest Florida (more out of curiosity than anything). You're probably going to have difficulty having it stay supersonic out to 1K. I've seen them at K&M tumbling before the 940 steel. If you change to the 175s you may have better luck. If I were you I would probably stay <700yds. Maybe 800 max.
True but if the bullet is going transonic or sub sonic, it's becoming unstable and is not really effective for anything other than battle.
Aside from what Mike's said already...
Right now, I reload M118's but, instead of 173's, I'm using 178 Amax. I'm reloading with 4064, CCI primers, Hornady brass...I get about 2600 FPS consistently.
I'd honestly say max effective range per a "real" target is @850. Army says 800, Marines say 1k. - This is one of those debates that will never end because there's merit to both points...However, past @950, if there's a gust of wind, a bird flies above your path or a coyote farts; you're definitely off target.
Max effective range if you're going to pound steel would be about 1200 but, again, you're relying more on the environment at that point than you are on skill.
Right now, I reload M118's but, instead of 173's, I'm using 178 Amax. I'm reloading with 4064, CCI primers, Hornady brass...I get about 2600 FPS consistently.
I'd honestly say max effective range per a "real" target is @850. Army says 800, Marines say 1k. - This is one of those debates that will never end because there's merit to both points...However, past @950, if there's a gust of wind, a bird flies above your path or a coyote farts; you're definitely off target.
Max effective range if you're going to pound steel would be about 1200 but, again, you're relying more on the environment at that point than you are on skill.
At 380' asl in Il, my old load of 168smk@2700 would go trans at 960. I can't imagine ur rifle/ammo staying above speed of sound more then 875-900. Try a 175 or 168 amax, if u had more barrel 155 are good to about 1150. Palmas in my last 3 24" barrels could be run at 2920ish. I find that i get a higher hit percentage if the bullets are still running 1250. Seems to me that between 1250 down to 1080, or whatever conditions make speed of sound, hit percentage goes down. After S O S threshold is met it comes down to how bullet transitions to subsonic flight and luck. 168 smk boat tail, as i'm told, causes erratic flight once the bullet slows down under super sonic and the supersonic wake/boom catches it.
According to the Shooter app on my iphone a 168 Matchking at 2600fps at 200ft above sea leavel goes trans sonic somewhere between 900 and 950 yards. The 168s are notorious for key holing or tumbling when they go trans sonic which severely affects accuracy at distances beyond that point.
With the ammo and ballistics specified, your max effective range will not be anything more than 850 yards.
I bet FGMM 168's out of a 20"" barrel are not going 2600. Did you chono them? Velocity varies from gun to gun depending on the jump the bullet makes, the length of the barrel, chamber and condition of the barrel itself. Chono your load, then run all of the data through a program. All of it is just a WAG until you know for sure your velocity.
If its like the velocity I get from my 308 20" R700 tactical it will be between 2500-2550 and will make dependable hits on steel to about 800, after that it gets unreliable/inconsistent. I am at 961' asl. If you don't reload and wish to shoot better at longer ranges look for 175 FGMM... my 2cents. It will still be subsonic but it handles the transition well.
My 20" 308 is outstanding at 800.
My 20" 308 is horrible at 1000.
168 a-max
My 20" 308 is horrible at 1000.
168 a-max
308 past 800 yards and youre really reaching under field conditions. Factor in a little wind, and your really just wishing upon a star. As with most cartridges.
Up to 750 yards is a damn good poke with any round in field conditions. Field/realistic/hunting conditions = No bench. 1 shot. No sighters. Keep it real.
Up to 750 yards is a damn good poke with any round in field conditions. Field/realistic/hunting conditions = No bench. 1 shot. No sighters. Keep it real.
Yes. Those last few hundred yards is where a long barrel, designer bullets and most of all, experience pay major dividends.
I liked the 175gr and believe they gave the .308 a breath of fresh air, IMO. I would think in a 20" barrel, you should still make it to 1000 yards. I cannot comment on 'effective range', as I don't know enough about what context you might be using this rifle / cartridge. Weight and barrel length don't really bother me all that much, hence I like the SPR A1 with 24" barrel. That being said, as one poster put it above, shooting range/bench style and "field" style are vastly different. Just my $.02. 
At 5000 ft with 178 Amax and a medium node charge can still retain 1000 ft lbs at 700Y (20 moa) , bout my limit for deer sized game. Can reach out further for steel.
OP still hasn't answered the "effective range for what?" question.
But I'll play anyway. 308 with 20" barrel = 800 yds.
But I'll play anyway. 308 with 20" barrel = 800 yds.
I shoot several 308s in all I run at least a 175, in my surgeon I have run 168 hybrids that are pretty hard to beat but are $$. I shoot out to 1100 on steel, if I am hunting 800 if conditions are just right they seldom are.
To the corner of my ranch it's 920 yards, about daylight coyotes are chasing field rats. Both my son and I reload and shoot the 308. Using a Remington 5R with NightForce NXS 5-22 scope at that distance hitting a running coyote is like throwing rocks. Occasionally we hit one, not often. We do have lots of fun trying. Bullets, we shoot whatever we can buy.
The 168 SMK goes subsonic at 909 yards according to JBM. So the effective range is way less than 1000 yards.
The US military considers the 308W maximum range 800 yards for man sized targets: 175 SMK.
It is not humane to soot at dear-sized animals over 500 yards with a 308W.
Given the right bullets and loads, one can punch paper or ring steel at to 1200 yards (1300 with a bit of altitude).
So, the maximum effective range depends on the application and varies between 500 yards and 1300 yards.
I get 2650 fps with 175g SMK in my 20" no pressure signs.
At my elevation of 6200' I get to 1200ish before subsonic.
At my elevation of 6200' I get to 1200ish before subsonic.
Just wondering how the 155 vld or full bore hybrids would do out of the same set up?
The maximum effective range of a 12 twisted .308 winchester is the range where the bullet retains sufficient energy to kill, destroy or disable or mark the target as appropriate and where the weapon system and ammunition are capable of the required accuracy and precision to reliably engage said target. There, now you know your maximum effective range. Your own maximum effective range is liable to be much shorter. Long range game taking is usually inhumane and/or irresponsible IMHO. Long range steel ringing deletes the requirement to destroy the target or retain any specific energy level. Long range combat is out of my area of expertise so I won't comment on that. Ask poorly phrased questions, get randomly defined answers.
Not trying to call you out or anything like that but I have watched a buddy hit a 2x2' ar500 plate at 1088 yards with a 20" 1:12 FNH Police with a 168 factory FGM. And the BULLETS WERE STABILIZED!! Not a single "sideways" hit on the plate. He shot 3 rounds to get on target and then put 7 or 8 on the plate w/o any misses. I was SHOCKED. If one would have told me it was possible before I would have laughed in their face. But I saw it threw the spotting scope.
There was ZERO wind and it was about 75 degrees. It was literally perfect shooting weather. Maybe that's the only reason he was able to do it ,????
My M118's start to tumble beyond 1000...The issue is you lose so much velocity beyond 900 that, like I said earlier, if a coyote farts in that vicinity, you're off target...
I've hit steel at 1050, the bullet appeared to be stable but, at that point it's 100% environmental and completely out of your hands.
I've seen a guy pound steel at 1200 with M118's...There was very little wind and he was 4/5...
God gave us the win-mag for a reason -- Just sayin.
Like! That's about the best quote I've read in a LONG time! LOL!
Effective range to be MOA and be capable putting down a man size target.
800 and I'm from NE FL. But I throw 175s instead at 2450. There is a reason I switched to .260
I shoot a couple of thousand rounds a yr at 1000 yes shooting FTR. My rig is a dedicated target rifle with a 32" tube launching heavy bullets at speeds that are only ever seen from short barrels on the internet.
First the OP is talking about using the 168SMK. At the listed velocities that bullet gets transonic at about 700 yards, and at that point it's trajectory I'd based on a algorithm for a random number generator. Seriously, I've been saying for years that that bullet needs a "to be used at 600 yards or less" warning label. I can't count the guys I've seen pulled off the line shooting FGGM 168s at 1000 because they were tumbling at 1000.
Second, even if the OP switched to the 175 SMK at 1000 yards the wind age is approaching a foot per mph of full value wind. The Marines shoot 26 inch barrels, not 20s.
If you don't have time behind the rifle at 1000 yards it won't matter what you shoot, you may as well aim at the moon. The wind is never "no wind" at that range. You are very unlikely to hit what you are aiming for.
First the OP is talking about using the 168SMK. At the listed velocities that bullet gets transonic at about 700 yards, and at that point it's trajectory I'd based on a algorithm for a random number generator. Seriously, I've been saying for years that that bullet needs a "to be used at 600 yards or less" warning label. I can't count the guys I've seen pulled off the line shooting FGGM 168s at 1000 because they were tumbling at 1000.
Second, even if the OP switched to the 175 SMK at 1000 yards the wind age is approaching a foot per mph of full value wind. The Marines shoot 26 inch barrels, not 20s.
If you don't have time behind the rifle at 1000 yards it won't matter what you shoot, you may as well aim at the moon. The wind is never "no wind" at that range. You are very unlikely to hit what you are aiming for.
2610 fps with 175gr in my 20" 700 will get me to 1K on a calm day, 1250 is the far side on a calm day and a good driver and good ammo. However when you throw in wind that is on a never ending rollercoster like it is here in SD you are racing to rethink you calculations sometimes from 1 round to another. Out past 1K your dropping like a slow moving rock. Your 1:12 might limit its performance with heavy bullets so the wind might be your biggest enemy. I shot a 308 for competition banging steel the last few years and on a calm day everything is great, but wind and 1K plus distances can make it tough. Better shooters than I can make it work really well, it just depends on the driver.
my 20" 1/13 with 168 A-Max at ~ 2650fps seems to hit consistently at 800m. Sea level (target maybe 6yds above sea level...)
edi
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I would definitely look at the 155's pushing them around 2900 if you are looking for a longer effective range aka staying above transonic flight out at distance, however this can be accomplished with many other bullets. The 155's are kinda of like a 'poor mans' .260 in a since.
I personally shoot 175 smk's out to 1300 without a problem, they transition well through the air here in Oklahoma and still have somewhere around ~400 ft lbs of energy left out there, definitely not something I would want to get whacked with.
I personally shoot 175 smk's out to 1300 without a problem, they transition well through the air here in Oklahoma and still have somewhere around ~400 ft lbs of energy left out there, definitely not something I would want to get whacked with.
If pure distance is what you're looking to accomplish, 175's or 155's will simply get you farther than 168's. I started out with 168's (although a 26" barrel, not 20"), and was going subsonic and groups opening WAY up between 900 & 1K with keyholing. Changed from 168 SMK's to 175 SMK's, problems went away.
The fact is that the 308 is not the magic round that everyone thinks it is. We have all heard of military snipers making some amazing shots at 1000 yd pluss but the the thing is those are rare. If the military is trying to make a long distance shot they go to bigger calibres.
You have to look at the round for what it is. Its a heavy slow round that has usually high bc. Good for making tight groupings from 50-800 yd. Out past that it is going too slow and drops really fast. And that is with a 24" to 26" barrel. Realistically with that 20"bbl you will probably get out to about 700 effectively out beyond that its up to your environment
155s pushed real hard yields decent distance. I shoot in the 2000'Elev and up range and have very good luck at 2930 with the lapuas + 1K
. Took a Ground hog at 947 with the TRG.
. Took a Ground hog at 947 with the TRG.
I hand load 168 and 155gr TMKs. My 168 load runs 45.5 grains of a slower burning IMR 4955, and I'm getting consistent chrono results of around 2550 in an 18" barrel. My 155s are running BLC-2, and those loads chrono at around 2700.
Ive made hits out to 1,000 with both loads before, but the 168 TMKs are pretty consistent.
You might consider alco bullets, if it's something you're still interested in. The high BC bullets will probably help you stay stable enough, long enough.
It's definitely doable, but you're probably not going to make it happen without reloading.
If you don't want to invest that much into a reloading outfit, consider a new barrel. I'm running an HBAR profile, which helps with consistency, but in the lengths you'll need for the added velocity, you may find it cumbersome.
Ive made hits out to 1,000 with both loads before, but the 168 TMKs are pretty consistent.
You might consider alco bullets, if it's something you're still interested in. The high BC bullets will probably help you stay stable enough, long enough.
It's definitely doable, but you're probably not going to make it happen without reloading.
If you don't want to invest that much into a reloading outfit, consider a new barrel. I'm running an HBAR profile, which helps with consistency, but in the lengths you'll need for the added velocity, you may find it cumbersome.
strong first post...
8 year bump and not even great info
8 year bump and not even great info
Well... I mean... he IS a 31B... not sure what the expectation should be here. ;-)
Necrothread!
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