- Thread starter Ohio1993
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Max effective range to do what?
Define “effective” (terminal ballistics, accuracy expectations, barrier penetration?)
Define “effective” (terminal ballistics, accuracy expectations, barrier penetration?)
You're going to need to put in some range time to know the answer to this. Shoot the ammo over a chronograph and get your average muzzle velocity. Then run the info through JBM in 25 yard increments with the environment data close to possible area where you're hunting. In the mean time, you can try to find the velocity range Federal built the bullet around. If it's too new, and you can't find it on the web, call Federal and talk to tech support. They should be able to give you the minimum velocity the bullet is designed to expand at. Cross reference that against yourJBM chart and give yourself a buffer zone in case you have a slow round or fucked up a temp or altitude setting.
Or, use one of the apps for ballistics, but you will still need the true muzzle velocity and the intended velocity ranges of the bullet.
Or, use one of the apps for ballistics, but you will still need the true muzzle velocity and the intended velocity ranges of the bullet.
If you accept SOS of 1125 FPS and transonic at 1350 FPS then the 180 gr with BC of .500 starting at 2520 (reduced MV by 100 FPS for shorter barrel - could be more or less) then the round goes transonic at approximately 800 yards and is still supersonic at 1000 yards. All hypothetical.
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According to the Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard, who see and train more shooters than anyone else in the world, the maximum effective range is around 350 meters. The gun and caliber are immaterial in this discussion. That is the best the average shooter can do given the equipment he is issued. Now, there are guns that are capable of acceptable accuracy at distances far beyond that and certainly optics and better training can improve that effective range beyond that 350m point. However, you can't miss enough times to kill anything, nor can the most powerful gun in the world kill anything with a miss. Now, explosives can make up for accuracy over distance but that has to do with kill radius and you still need to get your target within the kill radius.
Said kill radius is pretty small when hunting humans or animals. A pie plate, maybe, for an Elk, a tea saucer for a human or small deer like animal. My thinking is for a humane kill as in dead right there. Against an armed human who is shooting back at you, a disabling wound would be sufficient so a bigger radius. In fact, the disabling wound may be more effective as it will eat more resources to recover, care for and return the opponent to duty. It may also allow you to close with the enemy and dispatch him at your leisure.
Said kill radius is pretty small when hunting humans or animals. A pie plate, maybe, for an Elk, a tea saucer for a human or small deer like animal. My thinking is for a humane kill as in dead right there. Against an armed human who is shooting back at you, a disabling wound would be sufficient so a bigger radius. In fact, the disabling wound may be more effective as it will eat more resources to recover, care for and return the opponent to duty. It may also allow you to close with the enemy and dispatch him at your leisure.
Bryan Litz on MER: http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/Max_Effective_Range.pdf
No wonder the AB team does so well at Ko2M. With that kind of brainpower behind the shots.......
I"ll happily entertain your reasons why not.
To me, my MER is the distance I can place bullets on target 100% of the time, no matter the weather, or shooting position.
For those who actually shoot, your argument is too ignorant to bother explaining why saying 350 meters is MAX EFFECTIVE for a 308.
Dude, there is so much fail in there I am not going to spend the time to pick it apart.
Fursniper wins the internet for the day!
OK, I could have phrased it better. Let's just say the maximum effective range of the bullet far exceeds most peoples ability to place it on target in a timely manner. Sure, on a square range with all the modern shooting aids you can put a bullet into a target at multiples of 350 yards. High power shooters do it all the time. With the right training you can do better as well.
I have spent enough time on square ranges to see the same but I have also seen shooters with hunting rifles that will consider 3 shots in a pie plate at 50 yards adequate for hunting.
I have spent enough time on square ranges to see the same but I have also seen shooters with hunting rifles that will consider 3 shots in a pie plate at 50 yards adequate for hunting.
I'm wanting to build the .308 for competition, not hunting
Maximum effective range won't change, it still is the distance at which you can place a bullet on target in a timely fashion. A 308 can easily reach out to a mile or more with enough angle to the barrel. That doesn't mean you can hit your target at that distance. Since the goal is to hit the target the effective range is just that, you have to hit your target to score. Remember, we who obsess about the difference between a 1/4" and 1/2" groups are just a tiny minority of the shooters out there.
Sounds like all the 223 hits at 600 and the 308's I've sent even farther than that were all miracles.
Instead of worrying about max effective range, worry about putting on that rifle:
- a decent barrel suitable for competition (every ADL I've seen has pencil-thin barrels)
- a stock/chassis with detachable magazines
- match ammunition (what you've selected is not)
Have already replaced the stock and do have detachable magazines. What kind of barrel would you recommend?
I like Kriegers but there are many others out there that can make a good barrel (Pac-Nor, Hawk Hill, Bartlein, etc etc). I'd pick 24" as a nice compromise between too short and too long all-rounder. Contour should be somewhat heavier starting at a #6 sporter and going to a heavy Palma.
The guy to really talk to about barrels is the gunsmith that's going to turn it, chamber it, and install it in your action. Even if you go with a Remage, talk to the gunsmith supplying it unless you know exactly what you want.
Thank you. I will check them out
Are you too stupid to understand that F/TR shooters routinely shoot 20-round, sub-10 inch groups at 1000 yards with a 308?
Better check your source. If this were true, there would be no Marines. In order to graduate boot camp and claim that title, you have to prove your effectiveness to 500 meters.
Near as I can tell, the OP is not a Marine. The army seemed happy that I could hit man sized targets out to 350m from a slung standing position. Back when I was in, we were still using M14s, I fired expert.
FT/R is a whole different discipline. So is practical rifle and service rifle shooting. A lot of training required and lots of aids to accuracy. All will increase the effective range, hell, a red dot stuck atop an AR will increase the effective range provided the user knows how to employ the device.
It doesn’t matter whether the OP was a Marine. My comment was not directed to his question; it was directed to your erroneous reply. I can’t speak to what is acceptable in the army, navy, air force, or coast guard, but when I was at Parris Island, if you could not qualify with irons up to, and including five hundred meters, you could not graduate. Therefore, if you could not prove your effectiveness beyond 350 meters, you had to pack your trash and go join the army. ;-)
Not once did I see or hear an official statement by the Marine Corps referencing a generalized maximum effective range of 350 meters, regardless of the weapon used. All weapons had a clearly defined, individual maximum effective range noted in the operations manual. This is a physical characteristic of the weapon system, not including the operator. Adding the operator to the equation definitely can effect the MER, but the weapon system is certainly not immaterial, as you stated.
OP: The maximum effective range of your rifle with your chosen ammo should be determined by your intended use. I assume you chose the Trophy Bonded round because you’re going to hunt with it. If so, the MER is the distance at which your rifle can consistently group at least five rounds within an area equal in size to the accepted kill zone of your intended game when you shoot it from field positions, and achieve adequate terminal performance.
You need to chronograph the load in your rifle, then plug the velocity, rifle specs, and ammo specs into a ballistic program. This will tell you the furthest range at which you still have enough retained energy to reliably kill the animal you’re hunting. If the velocity, at that range, is sufficient to cause adequate expansion of your projectile, enabling it to maximize the energy transfer to the target, you then need to shoot the rifle at that distance, using only equipment and positions that you would actually use in the field. If you can consistently produce adequate groups, then that is your MER, for that rifle and load. If you can’t get adequate groups, reduce the range until you can, and that is your MER. You will very likely have different MER’s depending on your shooting position and type of rest and equipment used.
And what was the criteria for qualification? 1:20, 5:20, 20:20? In how short a time and in what positions?
Your later statements actually agree with mine.
Are you really still talking like anyone doesn't realize you are full of shit and shouldn't be listened to. Shut the fuck up and learn something rather than loud mouth moron-ing your way through stuff.
Suck my sweaty balls, asshole. It is you. who is being the loud mouthed idiot here. Guns do not shoot themselves, therefore, to be effective, the shooter must direct the gun on target and pull the trigger. Effective range is the range at which the shooter can deliver the bullet on target and with sufficient energy to do the designated job.
I never said that every detail in your post was wrong. You have an element of truth mixed with copious amounts of bullshit. You should never attempt to support your own statements with falsified endorsements from publicly verifiable sources. Even if your opinion is true, making up shit to back it up makes you look like a dumbass.
Your screen name translates as “””less than the best.” ”” I see you chose wisely, Grasshopper. I’’’m out.
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Take my low post count into consideration when figuring out why I even posted. But realize, I'm not trying to argue or get in an internet pissing contest.
Anyway, I was a SWAT sniper for a few years and we had pretty good guns (Rem 700s worked over by IBA * I know we overpaid *). Using not even remotely close to the most modern shooting aids (a 5.11 Rush 24 with an eberlestock rifle rest or the attached Harris bipod, a rear sand bag, and a 2.5-10 Nikon Monarch), I was able to place 168 grain BH AMAX loads into the chest of a target (4-6 inches) in the uber-swirling winds of Ft. Dix at 600 yards with downright boring monotony. Now, part of the reason I got to go to snipers was because I had/ have a good head on my shoulders and a smooth trigger pull, but I'm not God's gift to sniper craft by any means.
Regardless, I would have ZERO issues whatsoever shooting someone in the chest at 600 yards with that combination and would be able do so on a "two-way range" (sorry, not intending to be a toolbox) because the chances of me being engaged at 600 yards on a stateside LE job are slim to none (ie- not a very stressful shot). Taking a 168 grain AMAX at 600 yards would hurt very, very badly and most certainly be "effective" on the recipient.
Every one of the negative posts I have gotten are from folks who have worked at shooting for years and years, either as a hobby or in their profession. Of course, I would expect a SWAT sniper to be able to hit a man sized target in the chest at 600 yards when shooting from even a cheap rest with not the best of optics. I would also expect someone who spent enough time at the game to enter FTR competition to be able to do pretty much the same.
Now go take the average civilian off the street, hand him a rifle, let him shoot a couple boxes of ammo with only minimal training with a group of 40 other guys and see how he does on that same 600 yard chest shot. Oh add a somewhat worn off the rack rifle with iron sights. I know training has evolved since I took basic but when I went through, there were guys who could barley be trusted not to shoot themselves at the end of the training period. Yeah, some of them did not advance any further cause of their ineptitude. I'm sure the USMC still trains riflemen to a higher standard, I'm familiar with the abilities of the guys who participate in the service rifle matches.
My point is, these guys are not the average shooters. Head out to any public rifle range on the weekend or the local gravel pit and see what the shooters are doing in the weeks before deer season opens. Those are the average shooter.
I'm 75 now and my physical abilities are waining as are my eyes. I started shooting when I was 7, I could probably still make that shot but I'm not the average shooter nor am I the shooter who qualified as a 20 year old in 1962.
Now go take the average civilian off the street, hand him a rifle, let him shoot a couple boxes of ammo with only minimal training with a group of 40 other guys and see how he does on that same 600 yard chest shot. Oh add a somewhat worn off the rack rifle with iron sights. I know training has evolved since I took basic but when I went through, there were guys who could barley be trusted not to shoot themselves at the end of the training period. Yeah, some of them did not advance any further cause of their ineptitude. I'm sure the USMC still trains riflemen to a higher standard, I'm familiar with the abilities of the guys who participate in the service rifle matches.
My point is, these guys are not the average shooters. Head out to any public rifle range on the weekend or the local gravel pit and see what the shooters are doing in the weeks before deer season opens. Those are the average shooter.
I'm 75 now and my physical abilities are waining as are my eyes. I started shooting when I was 7, I could probably still make that shot but I'm not the average shooter nor am I the shooter who qualified as a 20 year old in 1962.
LOL
Damn, tough crowd here tonight! I think you ran off the OP.......
No, they have not ran me off, been busy as hell at work
And so you are corrected, I am a Marine, I served my time at Lejeune after I graduated at the Island. I have qualified expert on table 1 all the way up to the 500 meter line shooting m14 with iron sights.
I thought so. "2nd Award Lance" gave it away. Semper Fi.
Yea, fuckin boot LTs lol. Semper Fi
I’m some random fat guy who doesn’t compete, work as a LEO or was in the military. I routinely put my .308175SMKs on target at 700 yards. I guess I need to go to Vegas! I’m one lucky MoFo!!!
SubOptimal...
Good lord, a screen name has never been more accurate.
Good lord, a screen name has never been more accurate.
Jesus Christ, talk about bad gouge in post #5. The TMs for M40s list the Max Effective Range as 1,000 yds. The M40 is built on a Rem 700 action, and is a .308, so I think that's a better answer as to what the Marine Corps "thinks" the MER is. It goes without saying that both Marines and civilians hit past 1,000 yds with enough frequency for it to not be remarkable.
I can't speak for the Army, but yes, Marines qual at 500 yds with 5.56's with 14.5" barrels. I have no doubt that a properly built .223 is good to at least that distance.
I can't speak for the Army, but yes, Marines qual at 500 yds with 5.56's with 14.5" barrels. I have no doubt that a properly built .223 is good to at least that distance.
The maximum effective range is that which is just closer to the shooter than where the shooter can no longer effectively defeat a target with each shot.
Nor very helpful, was that? That's because that distance isn't a fixed number, and depends on the shooter as a key variable. One day, a target can be effectively defeated, and on another, same shooter, same conditions, same equipment, it can't.
It's like landing a plane with a dead engine. Most fatalities occur because the pilot tried to "Stretch the glide". Stay within your own limits, keep finding them, and keep refining your knowledge about yourself first, and everything else, after.
Greg
Nor very helpful, was that? That's because that distance isn't a fixed number, and depends on the shooter as a key variable. One day, a target can be effectively defeated, and on another, same shooter, same conditions, same equipment, it can't.
It's like landing a plane with a dead engine. Most fatalities occur because the pilot tried to "Stretch the glide". Stay within your own limits, keep finding them, and keep refining your knowledge about yourself first, and everything else, after.
Greg
