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Re: med kits
Why would a civilian need a medkit?
Why would a civilian need a medkit?
Re: med kits
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Powder Burns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why would a civilian need a medkit? </div></div>
You are right...civilians, by title alone, are protected from injuries, and therefore have no need for a medical kit. Which probably means they don't need guns, fire extinguishers, or any knowledge pertaining to these devices, because someone who's job it is to use these tools will be along shortly to take care of the problem.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Powder Burns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why would a civilian need a medkit?
You are right...civilians, by title alone, are protected from injuries, and therefore have no need for a medical kit. Which probably means they don't need guns, fire extinguishers, or any knowledge pertaining to these devices, because someone who's job it is to use these tools will be along shortly to take care of the problem.
Re: med kits
I've been there. Cool stuff. But most people need much higher level of training than a standard first aid class.
Not far from there is Grey Group Training and they carry a more basic med kits prepackaged. Blow out kits, chest seals and nasal airways. Bulk dressing and so on.
I did EMS for 11 years, med kits can be easy to start small and keep adding a piece or two here and there. Soon you need a ambulance to carry it all.
Have one with your personal kit, and some of the larger and heavier pieces in your vehicles. The idea of "bugging out" is not going to happen. You need to bug in where all your supplies are.
Cut
I've been there. Cool stuff. But most people need much higher level of training than a standard first aid class.
Not far from there is Grey Group Training and they carry a more basic med kits prepackaged. Blow out kits, chest seals and nasal airways. Bulk dressing and so on.
I did EMS for 11 years, med kits can be easy to start small and keep adding a piece or two here and there. Soon you need a ambulance to carry it all.
Have one with your personal kit, and some of the larger and heavier pieces in your vehicles. The idea of "bugging out" is not going to happen. You need to bug in where all your supplies are.
Cut
Re: med kits
Where u going to use it, what's ur level of training, how much can u spend, and how portable does it have to be? These are just a few questions which come to mind. I'm an ER doctor and have been the medical director for several EMS agencies, SWAT, SRT, EOD, etc. I've helped inventory and customise many medical kits. Even some for extensive travel in parts of remote Central American Countries. Even with all my years of training I can do little more than a paramedic in the field as the support needed for more advanced care just isn't there to back me up. If I can help u or anyone out on a specific project I'd be glad to give u some more suggestions and info. Take Care
Where u going to use it, what's ur level of training, how much can u spend, and how portable does it have to be? These are just a few questions which come to mind. I'm an ER doctor and have been the medical director for several EMS agencies, SWAT, SRT, EOD, etc. I've helped inventory and customise many medical kits. Even some for extensive travel in parts of remote Central American Countries. Even with all my years of training I can do little more than a paramedic in the field as the support needed for more advanced care just isn't there to back me up. If I can help u or anyone out on a specific project I'd be glad to give u some more suggestions and info. Take Care
Re: med kits
Bowfinger,
What would you suggest in terms of of a med kit that folks who have no more than the basic, "stop the bleeding, start the breathing, protect the wound", training have.
I'm thinking more in terms of what can be done in those "time is life" situations before real help arrives.
Perhaps with some additional training, and the right kit, someone like myself could buy a person some critical minutes before a qualified medical team arrives.
We all spend time on ranges that by their nature are removed from cities and towns and it may take quite a while for help to arrive.
Regards
Larry
Bowfinger,
What would you suggest in terms of of a med kit that folks who have no more than the basic, "stop the bleeding, start the breathing, protect the wound", training have.
I'm thinking more in terms of what can be done in those "time is life" situations before real help arrives.
Perhaps with some additional training, and the right kit, someone like myself could buy a person some critical minutes before a qualified medical team arrives.
We all spend time on ranges that by their nature are removed from cities and towns and it may take quite a while for help to arrive.
Regards
Larry
Re: med kits
I have a few kits from these guys and am lucky enough to have a distributor that comes to the local gun shows.
http://elite1staid.com/
They offer quite a few options that are cost effective and usually well put together compared to say a johnson & johnson kit but all need a bit of customizing for individual circumstances.
I keep smaller kits in each of the vehicles along with some extra blood stoppers, quick clot, etc. I also carry one in my range bag as well. When I began teaching concealed carry courses I realized that it was irresponsible to go to he range without something and decided to go through the red cross training as well. I am not a Dr. nor EMT and not trained as one but I have been fortunate enough to have a son in law as well as a son who are Navy Corpsmen and they have brought me up to speed on a few things as well.
I know that re filling the kits is an expensive proposition at times and have found that wal mart has some of the best pricing on general first aid supplies rather than going to a pharmacy.
Just my .02 I hope someone finds the information helpful.
I have a few kits from these guys and am lucky enough to have a distributor that comes to the local gun shows.
http://elite1staid.com/
They offer quite a few options that are cost effective and usually well put together compared to say a johnson & johnson kit but all need a bit of customizing for individual circumstances.
I keep smaller kits in each of the vehicles along with some extra blood stoppers, quick clot, etc. I also carry one in my range bag as well. When I began teaching concealed carry courses I realized that it was irresponsible to go to he range without something and decided to go through the red cross training as well. I am not a Dr. nor EMT and not trained as one but I have been fortunate enough to have a son in law as well as a son who are Navy Corpsmen and they have brought me up to speed on a few things as well.
I know that re filling the kits is an expensive proposition at times and have found that wal mart has some of the best pricing on general first aid supplies rather than going to a pharmacy.
Just my .02 I hope someone finds the information helpful.
Re: med kits
NA Rescue ftw.
NA Rescue ftw.
Re: med kits
I have purchased several things from Chinook Medical.
http://www.chinookmed.com/
Good luck
I have purchased several things from Chinook Medical.
http://www.chinookmed.com/
Good luck
Re: med kits
I just got back from fishing with the kids so I can elaborate further tomorrow if anyone is interested. Obviously, there are a lot of pre-packaged kits out there and everybody has to make a buck. There are some advantages to researching these kits, then putting one together yourself. First is obviously cost savings as you can buy the same supplies for pennies on the dollar from your local Ag store like "Big R", "Ranch Supply", etc. Second, if you take the time to put a kit together you know what you have, where it's at, and why you have it. For cuts, smashed fingers,superficial wounds, and broken bones your really taking about minor stuff to provide comfort or cover a wound till you get to the local Doc shop or home. When you start looking at "buying time" some basic training and knowledge probably more important than the amount you payed for your kit. A few bad things that I can think of which can come up on the range or in the woods shooting are: Gunshot wounds, knife wounds, explosions, chemical exposures, and even seizures. You can "almost" always slow or stop bleeding with focused firm pressure. This can be a finger, palm, elbow, etc. Tourniquets are "almost" never used unless nothing else works and the bleeding is profuse. Even then they have to be watched closely. Burns covered with clean moist wet gauze(there are more expensive burn dressings but there just going to take them off and through them away when you get to the ER). Saline eye wash is always a good thing for irrigating chemical exposures to the eyes and face(This is really cheap). Seizures are more frequent than you would imagine and they tend to scare people. Seizures usually look worse than they are, and for the most part you turn the person to their side in case they puke make sure they don't choke or hit their head. It seems like they last minutes when it's usually only seconds. On the other hand if you were taking an extended trip where medical care is a few days away, then your talking splint material, antibiotics, pain medications, etc.........and some condoms and Viagra aren't a bad idea!......If anyone is really serious about putting together or buying a medical kit I'd be glad to make some suggestions but a little first aid training most of the time makes up for all the basic equipment money can buy. A good analogy would be if I went out and bought a high end bench gun. I can afford it and brag about how good it is but with my limited training I could never shoot it as well as some of you can shoot a cheaper off the shelf gun. Anyway, sorry if I was to long winded,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,JS
I just got back from fishing with the kids so I can elaborate further tomorrow if anyone is interested. Obviously, there are a lot of pre-packaged kits out there and everybody has to make a buck. There are some advantages to researching these kits, then putting one together yourself. First is obviously cost savings as you can buy the same supplies for pennies on the dollar from your local Ag store like "Big R", "Ranch Supply", etc. Second, if you take the time to put a kit together you know what you have, where it's at, and why you have it. For cuts, smashed fingers,superficial wounds, and broken bones your really taking about minor stuff to provide comfort or cover a wound till you get to the local Doc shop or home. When you start looking at "buying time" some basic training and knowledge probably more important than the amount you payed for your kit. A few bad things that I can think of which can come up on the range or in the woods shooting are: Gunshot wounds, knife wounds, explosions, chemical exposures, and even seizures. You can "almost" always slow or stop bleeding with focused firm pressure. This can be a finger, palm, elbow, etc. Tourniquets are "almost" never used unless nothing else works and the bleeding is profuse. Even then they have to be watched closely. Burns covered with clean moist wet gauze(there are more expensive burn dressings but there just going to take them off and through them away when you get to the ER). Saline eye wash is always a good thing for irrigating chemical exposures to the eyes and face(This is really cheap). Seizures are more frequent than you would imagine and they tend to scare people. Seizures usually look worse than they are, and for the most part you turn the person to their side in case they puke make sure they don't choke or hit their head. It seems like they last minutes when it's usually only seconds. On the other hand if you were taking an extended trip where medical care is a few days away, then your talking splint material, antibiotics, pain medications, etc.........and some condoms and Viagra aren't a bad idea!......If anyone is really serious about putting together or buying a medical kit I'd be glad to make some suggestions but a little first aid training most of the time makes up for all the basic equipment money can buy. A good analogy would be if I went out and bought a high end bench gun. I can afford it and brag about how good it is but with my limited training I could never shoot it as well as some of you can shoot a cheaper off the shelf gun. Anyway, sorry if I was to long winded,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,JS
Re: med kits
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowfinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just got back from fishing with the kids so I can elaborate further tomorrow if anyone is interested. Obviously, there are a lot of pre-packaged kits out there and everybody has to make a buck. There are some advantages to researching these kits, then putting one together yourself. First is obviously cost savings as you can buy the same supplies for pennies on the dollar from your local Ag store like "Big R", "Ranch Supply", etc. Second, if you take the time to put a kit together you know what you have, where it's at, and why you have it. For cuts, smashed fingers,superficial wounds, and broken bones your really taking about minor stuff to provide comfort or cover a wound till you get to the local Doc shop or home. When you start looking at "buying time" some basic training and knowledge probably more important than the amount you payed for your kit. A few bad things that I can think of which can come up on the range or in the woods shooting are: Gunshot wounds, knife wounds, explosions, chemical exposures, and even seizures. You can "almost" always slow or stop bleeding with focused firm pressure. This can be a finger, palm, elbow, etc. Tourniquets are "almost" never used unless nothing else works and the bleeding is profuse. Even then they have to be watched closely. Burns covered with clean moist wet gauze(there are more expensive burn dressings but there just going to take them off and through them away when you get to the ER). Saline eye wash is always a good thing for irrigating chemical exposures to the eyes and face(This is really cheap). Seizures are more frequent than you would imagine and they tend to scare people. Seizures usually look worse than they are, and for the most part you turn the person to their side in case they puke make sure they don't choke or hit their head. It seems like they last minutes when it's usually only seconds. On the other hand if you were taking an extended trip where medical care is a few days away, then your talking splint material, antibiotics, pain medications, etc.........and some condoms and Viagra aren't a bad idea!......If anyone is really serious about putting together or buying a medical kit I'd be glad to make some suggestions but a little first aid training most of the time makes up for all the basic equipment money can buy. A good analogy would be if I went out and bought a high end bench gun. I can afford it and brag about how good it is but with my limited training I could never shoot it as well as some of you can shoot a cheaper off the shelf gun. Anyway, sorry if I was to long winded,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,JS </div></div>
well said!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowfinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just got back from fishing with the kids so I can elaborate further tomorrow if anyone is interested. Obviously, there are a lot of pre-packaged kits out there and everybody has to make a buck. There are some advantages to researching these kits, then putting one together yourself. First is obviously cost savings as you can buy the same supplies for pennies on the dollar from your local Ag store like "Big R", "Ranch Supply", etc. Second, if you take the time to put a kit together you know what you have, where it's at, and why you have it. For cuts, smashed fingers,superficial wounds, and broken bones your really taking about minor stuff to provide comfort or cover a wound till you get to the local Doc shop or home. When you start looking at "buying time" some basic training and knowledge probably more important than the amount you payed for your kit. A few bad things that I can think of which can come up on the range or in the woods shooting are: Gunshot wounds, knife wounds, explosions, chemical exposures, and even seizures. You can "almost" always slow or stop bleeding with focused firm pressure. This can be a finger, palm, elbow, etc. Tourniquets are "almost" never used unless nothing else works and the bleeding is profuse. Even then they have to be watched closely. Burns covered with clean moist wet gauze(there are more expensive burn dressings but there just going to take them off and through them away when you get to the ER). Saline eye wash is always a good thing for irrigating chemical exposures to the eyes and face(This is really cheap). Seizures are more frequent than you would imagine and they tend to scare people. Seizures usually look worse than they are, and for the most part you turn the person to their side in case they puke make sure they don't choke or hit their head. It seems like they last minutes when it's usually only seconds. On the other hand if you were taking an extended trip where medical care is a few days away, then your talking splint material, antibiotics, pain medications, etc.........and some condoms and Viagra aren't a bad idea!......If anyone is really serious about putting together or buying a medical kit I'd be glad to make some suggestions but a little first aid training most of the time makes up for all the basic equipment money can buy. A good analogy would be if I went out and bought a high end bench gun. I can afford it and brag about how good it is but with my limited training I could never shoot it as well as some of you can shoot a cheaper off the shelf gun. Anyway, sorry if I was to long winded,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,JS </div></div>
well said!
Re: med kits
I usually wait for the kits on sale from their newsletters:
http://www.rescue-essentials.com/category_s/134.htm
I usually wait for the kits on sale from their newsletters:
http://www.rescue-essentials.com/category_s/134.htm
Re: med kits
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowfinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just got back from fishing with the kids so I can elaborate further tomorrow if anyone is interested. Obviously, there are a lot of pre-packaged kits out there and everybody has to make a buck. There are some advantages to researching these kits, then putting one together yourself. First is obviously cost savings as you can buy the same supplies for pennies on the dollar from your local Ag store like "Big R", "Ranch Supply", etc. Second, if you take the time to put a kit together you know what you have, where it's at, and why you have it. For cuts, smashed fingers,superficial wounds, and broken bones your really taking about minor stuff to provide comfort or cover a wound till you get to the local Doc shop or home. When you start looking at "buying time" some basic training and knowledge probably more important than the amount you payed for your kit. A few bad things that I can think of which can come up on the range or in the woods shooting are: Gunshot wounds, knife wounds, explosions, chemical exposures, and even seizures. You can "almost" always slow or stop bleeding with focused firm pressure. This can be a finger, palm, elbow, etc. Tourniquets are "almost" never used unless nothing else works and the bleeding is profuse. Even then they have to be watched closely. Burns covered with clean moist wet gauze(there are more expensive burn dressings but there just going to take them off and through them away when you get to the ER). Saline eye wash is always a good thing for irrigating chemical exposures to the eyes and face(This is really cheap). Seizures are more frequent than you would imagine and they tend to scare people. Seizures usually look worse than they are, and for the most part you turn the person to their side in case they puke make sure they don't choke or hit their head. It seems like they last minutes when it's usually only seconds. On the other hand if you were taking an extended trip where medical care is a few days away, then your talking splint material, antibiotics, pain medications, etc.........and some condoms and Viagra aren't a bad idea!......If anyone is really serious about putting together or buying a medical kit I'd be glad to make some suggestions but a little first aid training most of the time makes up for all the basic equipment money can buy. A good analogy would be if I went out and bought a high end bench gun. I can afford it and brag about how good it is but with my limited training I could never shoot it as well as some of you can shoot a cheaper off the shelf gun. Anyway, sorry if I was to long winded,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,JS </div></div>
I disagree with the statements on the tourniquet, but other than that, spot on.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowfinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just got back from fishing with the kids so I can elaborate further tomorrow if anyone is interested. Obviously, there are a lot of pre-packaged kits out there and everybody has to make a buck. There are some advantages to researching these kits, then putting one together yourself. First is obviously cost savings as you can buy the same supplies for pennies on the dollar from your local Ag store like "Big R", "Ranch Supply", etc. Second, if you take the time to put a kit together you know what you have, where it's at, and why you have it. For cuts, smashed fingers,superficial wounds, and broken bones your really taking about minor stuff to provide comfort or cover a wound till you get to the local Doc shop or home. When you start looking at "buying time" some basic training and knowledge probably more important than the amount you payed for your kit. A few bad things that I can think of which can come up on the range or in the woods shooting are: Gunshot wounds, knife wounds, explosions, chemical exposures, and even seizures. You can "almost" always slow or stop bleeding with focused firm pressure. This can be a finger, palm, elbow, etc. Tourniquets are "almost" never used unless nothing else works and the bleeding is profuse. Even then they have to be watched closely. Burns covered with clean moist wet gauze(there are more expensive burn dressings but there just going to take them off and through them away when you get to the ER). Saline eye wash is always a good thing for irrigating chemical exposures to the eyes and face(This is really cheap). Seizures are more frequent than you would imagine and they tend to scare people. Seizures usually look worse than they are, and for the most part you turn the person to their side in case they puke make sure they don't choke or hit their head. It seems like they last minutes when it's usually only seconds. On the other hand if you were taking an extended trip where medical care is a few days away, then your talking splint material, antibiotics, pain medications, etc.........and some condoms and Viagra aren't a bad idea!......If anyone is really serious about putting together or buying a medical kit I'd be glad to make some suggestions but a little first aid training most of the time makes up for all the basic equipment money can buy. A good analogy would be if I went out and bought a high end bench gun. I can afford it and brag about how good it is but with my limited training I could never shoot it as well as some of you can shoot a cheaper off the shelf gun. Anyway, sorry if I was to long winded,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,JS </div></div>
I disagree with the statements on the tourniquet, but other than that, spot on.
Re: med kits
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowfinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just got back from fishing with the kids so I can elaborate further tomorrow if anyone is interested. Obviously, there are a lot of pre-packaged kits out there and everybody has to make a buck. There are some advantages to researching these kits, then putting one together yourself. First is obviously cost savings as you can buy the same supplies for pennies on the dollar from your local Ag store like "Big R", "Ranch Supply", etc. Second, if you take the time to put a kit together you know what you have, where it's at, and why you have it. For cuts, smashed fingers,superficial wounds, and broken bones your really taking about minor stuff to provide comfort or cover a wound till you get to the local Doc shop or home. When you start looking at "buying time" some basic training and knowledge probably more important than the amount you payed for your kit. A few bad things that I can think of which can come up on the range or in the woods shooting are: Gunshot wounds, knife wounds, explosions, chemical exposures, and even seizures. You can "almost" always slow or stop bleeding with focused firm pressure. This can be a finger, palm, elbow, etc. Tourniquets are "almost" never used unless nothing else works and the bleeding is profuse. Even then they have to be watched closely. Burns covered with clean moist wet gauze(there are more expensive burn dressings but there just going to take them off and through them away when you get to the ER). Saline eye wash is always a good thing for irrigating chemical exposures to the eyes and face(This is really cheap). Seizures are more frequent than you would imagine and they tend to scare people. Seizures usually look worse than they are, and for the most part you turn the person to their side in case they puke make sure they don't choke or hit their head. It seems like they last minutes when it's usually only seconds. On the other hand if you were taking an extended trip where medical care is a few days away, then your talking splint material, antibiotics, pain medications, etc.........and some condoms and Viagra aren't a bad idea!......If anyone is really serious about putting together or buying a medical kit I'd be glad to make some suggestions but a little first aid training most of the time makes up for all the basic equipment money can buy. A good analogy would be if I went out and bought a high end bench gun. I can afford it and brag about how good it is but with my limited training I could never shoot it as well as some of you can shoot a cheaper off the shelf gun. Anyway, sorry if I was to long winded,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,JS </div></div>
I disagree with the statements on the tourniquet, but other than that, spot on. </div></div>
well its kind of a legal nightmare to use a tourniquet, if you cant get that person to a hospital befor an hour after using a tourniquet they have to amputate because its too late to save the limb, you would be better off legaly to let the guy bleed to death over using a tourniquet or get your self into a lawsuit and lose most likly because the guy lost an arm or a leg, if you cant get permision to use it by the victom i wouldnt use a tourniquet
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowfinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just got back from fishing with the kids so I can elaborate further tomorrow if anyone is interested. Obviously, there are a lot of pre-packaged kits out there and everybody has to make a buck. There are some advantages to researching these kits, then putting one together yourself. First is obviously cost savings as you can buy the same supplies for pennies on the dollar from your local Ag store like "Big R", "Ranch Supply", etc. Second, if you take the time to put a kit together you know what you have, where it's at, and why you have it. For cuts, smashed fingers,superficial wounds, and broken bones your really taking about minor stuff to provide comfort or cover a wound till you get to the local Doc shop or home. When you start looking at "buying time" some basic training and knowledge probably more important than the amount you payed for your kit. A few bad things that I can think of which can come up on the range or in the woods shooting are: Gunshot wounds, knife wounds, explosions, chemical exposures, and even seizures. You can "almost" always slow or stop bleeding with focused firm pressure. This can be a finger, palm, elbow, etc. Tourniquets are "almost" never used unless nothing else works and the bleeding is profuse. Even then they have to be watched closely. Burns covered with clean moist wet gauze(there are more expensive burn dressings but there just going to take them off and through them away when you get to the ER). Saline eye wash is always a good thing for irrigating chemical exposures to the eyes and face(This is really cheap). Seizures are more frequent than you would imagine and they tend to scare people. Seizures usually look worse than they are, and for the most part you turn the person to their side in case they puke make sure they don't choke or hit their head. It seems like they last minutes when it's usually only seconds. On the other hand if you were taking an extended trip where medical care is a few days away, then your talking splint material, antibiotics, pain medications, etc.........and some condoms and Viagra aren't a bad idea!......If anyone is really serious about putting together or buying a medical kit I'd be glad to make some suggestions but a little first aid training most of the time makes up for all the basic equipment money can buy. A good analogy would be if I went out and bought a high end bench gun. I can afford it and brag about how good it is but with my limited training I could never shoot it as well as some of you can shoot a cheaper off the shelf gun. Anyway, sorry if I was to long winded,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,JS </div></div>
I disagree with the statements on the tourniquet, but other than that, spot on. </div></div>
well its kind of a legal nightmare to use a tourniquet, if you cant get that person to a hospital befor an hour after using a tourniquet they have to amputate because its too late to save the limb, you would be better off legaly to let the guy bleed to death over using a tourniquet or get your self into a lawsuit and lose most likly because the guy lost an arm or a leg, if you cant get permision to use it by the victom i wouldnt use a tourniquet
Re: med kits
+1 for NAR products, as well as gear retained from the service. I have a couple good SOF Tournies, some pressure and emergrency bandages, an IV starter kit, ace wraps, combat gauze, medical tape, and latex gloves. I keep all of it with me whenever i go out for any period of time
+1 for NAR products, as well as gear retained from the service. I have a couple good SOF Tournies, some pressure and emergrency bandages, an IV starter kit, ace wraps, combat gauze, medical tape, and latex gloves. I keep all of it with me whenever i go out for any period of time
Re: med kits
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jabronie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowfinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just got back from fishing with the kids so I can elaborate further tomorrow if anyone is interested. Obviously, there are a lot of pre-packaged kits out there and everybody has to make a buck. There are some advantages to researching these kits, then putting one together yourself. First is obviously cost savings as you can buy the same supplies for pennies on the dollar from your local Ag store like "Big R", "Ranch Supply", etc. Second, if you take the time to put a kit together you know what you have, where it's at, and why you have it. For cuts, smashed fingers,superficial wounds, and broken bones your really taking about minor stuff to provide comfort or cover a wound till you get to the local Doc shop or home. When you start looking at "buying time" some basic training and knowledge probably more important than the amount you payed for your kit. A few bad things that I can think of which can come up on the range or in the woods shooting are: Gunshot wounds, knife wounds, explosions, chemical exposures, and even seizures. You can "almost" always slow or stop bleeding with focused firm pressure. This can be a finger, palm, elbow, etc. Tourniquets are "almost" never used unless nothing else works and the bleeding is profuse. Even then they have to be watched closely. Burns covered with clean moist wet gauze(there are more expensive burn dressings but there just going to take them off and through them away when you get to the ER). Saline eye wash is always a good thing for irrigating chemical exposures to the eyes and face(This is really cheap). Seizures are more frequent than you would imagine and they tend to scare people. Seizures usually look worse than they are, and for the most part you turn the person to their side in case they puke make sure they don't choke or hit their head. It seems like they last minutes when it's usually only seconds. On the other hand if you were taking an extended trip where medical care is a few days away, then your talking splint material, antibiotics, pain medications, etc.........and some condoms and Viagra aren't a bad idea!......If anyone is really serious about putting together or buying a medical kit I'd be glad to make some suggestions but a little first aid training most of the time makes up for all the basic equipment money can buy. A good analogy would be if I went out and bought a high end bench gun. I can afford it and brag about how good it is but with my limited training I could never shoot it as well as some of you can shoot a cheaper off the shelf gun. Anyway, sorry if I was to long winded,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,JS </div></div>
I disagree with the statements on the tourniquet, but other than that, spot on. </div></div>
well its kind of a legal nightmare to use a tourniquet, if you cant get that person to a hospital befor an hour after using a tourniquet they have to amputate because its too late to save the limb, you would be better off legaly to let the guy bleed to death over using a tourniquet or get your self into a lawsuit and lose most likly because the guy lost an arm or a leg, if you cant get permision to use it by the victom i wouldnt use a tourniquet </div></div>
Amputate if not to the hospital in under an hour? WHAT? You are putting out some very old information:
http://www.tacmedsolutions.com/blog/?p=167
The fact is, hundreds, if not thousands <span style="text-decoration: underline">more</span> men and women would be missing limbs from the last 11 years of war if the "1 hour rule" to tourniquets were true. First, the generally accepted limit when not using methods to flush the acid build-up is 2 hours, which can be extended by releasing the tourniquet for a few minutes prior to the 2 hour mark. It can go much longer if the ER doctors are informed how long the tourniquet has been on, if there has been release time and are not complete retards with modern methods of limb recovery from tourniquet use.
So wide-spread is the use of tourniquets that all soldiers and marines are issued one in their first aid kit... instruction now dictates that if it is deep red arterial bleeding, you move straight to a tourniquet then once the bleeding has stopped, apply a bandage to keep the wound as clean as possible. They have literally became a first step for many wounds that 10 years ago would have seen attempts at dressing, pressure dressing and improvised tourniquets. They are the single biggest life-saving application of aid on the battle field. If soldiers can go hours before removal of the tourniquet and not have limbs amputated, there is no reason someone here in the states with the fast access to hospitals and ER's would have any worse of a chance.
Oh and if legal issues are your concern- check into the laws of the state you are in- some allow a person to use any life saving means for which they have knowledge in to give another aid and cannot face a civil suit. Others don't have such nice protections. Those without such protections, if you are worried about legal problems, you'd best keep on about your business. You run the risk of litigation for what you do, but also for what you DO NOT do (You knew about tourniquets but only applied pressure- individual bled out and family says you caused the loss of life by not applying your knowledge or by preventing someone who may have done so by acting since you were already there, providing a lower level of aid than needed. Just like in self defense shootings, fear of litigation should never enter your mind. If it does, you should remove yourself from the situation without acting. In matters of life and death, you don't have the luxury to contemplate litigation possibilities. I would hate to meet the individual who would stand over a person with arterial bleeding in their leg and ponder what to do based on finding themselves in court.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jabronie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowfinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just got back from fishing with the kids so I can elaborate further tomorrow if anyone is interested. Obviously, there are a lot of pre-packaged kits out there and everybody has to make a buck. There are some advantages to researching these kits, then putting one together yourself. First is obviously cost savings as you can buy the same supplies for pennies on the dollar from your local Ag store like "Big R", "Ranch Supply", etc. Second, if you take the time to put a kit together you know what you have, where it's at, and why you have it. For cuts, smashed fingers,superficial wounds, and broken bones your really taking about minor stuff to provide comfort or cover a wound till you get to the local Doc shop or home. When you start looking at "buying time" some basic training and knowledge probably more important than the amount you payed for your kit. A few bad things that I can think of which can come up on the range or in the woods shooting are: Gunshot wounds, knife wounds, explosions, chemical exposures, and even seizures. You can "almost" always slow or stop bleeding with focused firm pressure. This can be a finger, palm, elbow, etc. Tourniquets are "almost" never used unless nothing else works and the bleeding is profuse. Even then they have to be watched closely. Burns covered with clean moist wet gauze(there are more expensive burn dressings but there just going to take them off and through them away when you get to the ER). Saline eye wash is always a good thing for irrigating chemical exposures to the eyes and face(This is really cheap). Seizures are more frequent than you would imagine and they tend to scare people. Seizures usually look worse than they are, and for the most part you turn the person to their side in case they puke make sure they don't choke or hit their head. It seems like they last minutes when it's usually only seconds. On the other hand if you were taking an extended trip where medical care is a few days away, then your talking splint material, antibiotics, pain medications, etc.........and some condoms and Viagra aren't a bad idea!......If anyone is really serious about putting together or buying a medical kit I'd be glad to make some suggestions but a little first aid training most of the time makes up for all the basic equipment money can buy. A good analogy would be if I went out and bought a high end bench gun. I can afford it and brag about how good it is but with my limited training I could never shoot it as well as some of you can shoot a cheaper off the shelf gun. Anyway, sorry if I was to long winded,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,JS </div></div>
I disagree with the statements on the tourniquet, but other than that, spot on. </div></div>
well its kind of a legal nightmare to use a tourniquet, if you cant get that person to a hospital befor an hour after using a tourniquet they have to amputate because its too late to save the limb, you would be better off legaly to let the guy bleed to death over using a tourniquet or get your self into a lawsuit and lose most likly because the guy lost an arm or a leg, if you cant get permision to use it by the victom i wouldnt use a tourniquet </div></div>
Amputate if not to the hospital in under an hour? WHAT? You are putting out some very old information:
http://www.tacmedsolutions.com/blog/?p=167
The fact is, hundreds, if not thousands <span style="text-decoration: underline">more</span> men and women would be missing limbs from the last 11 years of war if the "1 hour rule" to tourniquets were true. First, the generally accepted limit when not using methods to flush the acid build-up is 2 hours, which can be extended by releasing the tourniquet for a few minutes prior to the 2 hour mark. It can go much longer if the ER doctors are informed how long the tourniquet has been on, if there has been release time and are not complete retards with modern methods of limb recovery from tourniquet use.
So wide-spread is the use of tourniquets that all soldiers and marines are issued one in their first aid kit... instruction now dictates that if it is deep red arterial bleeding, you move straight to a tourniquet then once the bleeding has stopped, apply a bandage to keep the wound as clean as possible. They have literally became a first step for many wounds that 10 years ago would have seen attempts at dressing, pressure dressing and improvised tourniquets. They are the single biggest life-saving application of aid on the battle field. If soldiers can go hours before removal of the tourniquet and not have limbs amputated, there is no reason someone here in the states with the fast access to hospitals and ER's would have any worse of a chance.
Oh and if legal issues are your concern- check into the laws of the state you are in- some allow a person to use any life saving means for which they have knowledge in to give another aid and cannot face a civil suit. Others don't have such nice protections. Those without such protections, if you are worried about legal problems, you'd best keep on about your business. You run the risk of litigation for what you do, but also for what you DO NOT do (You knew about tourniquets but only applied pressure- individual bled out and family says you caused the loss of life by not applying your knowledge or by preventing someone who may have done so by acting since you were already there, providing a lower level of aid than needed. Just like in self defense shootings, fear of litigation should never enter your mind. If it does, you should remove yourself from the situation without acting. In matters of life and death, you don't have the luxury to contemplate litigation possibilities. I would hate to meet the individual who would stand over a person with arterial bleeding in their leg and ponder what to do based on finding themselves in court.
Re: med kits
too much talk ...
attend several courses on proper first aid and advanced first aid (or whatever you want to call it). if you have a med-kit, it doesn't mean you know how to use it. but when you know what you have to do, you can improvise.
i'd recommend you to talk to the next mountain rescue. we are used to deal with bad weather and heavy injuries at remote areas. most of the time doctors refuse to join us so we are stuck with improvising/knowing what to do with limited means.
too much talk ...
attend several courses on proper first aid and advanced first aid (or whatever you want to call it). if you have a med-kit, it doesn't mean you know how to use it. but when you know what you have to do, you can improvise.
i'd recommend you to talk to the next mountain rescue. we are used to deal with bad weather and heavy injuries at remote areas. most of the time doctors refuse to join us so we are stuck with improvising/knowing what to do with limited means.
Re: med kits
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jabronie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">really thats interesting to know,thanks for the up date, i was just repeating what i was taught in boy scout years ago, which was to use the tourniquet as a last resort only, because you can potental get suiwed </div></div>
No problem! We have came a LONG way in the last decade in terms of trama aid; looking back on it is really very impressive.
But as the guy a couple posts up said- all the kit in the world is useless if you don't know how to properly use it. Advanced first-aid classes are a must for anyone serious about this stuff. Take CPR- the ratio of breaths to pumps has changed a bunch of times. If you don't take the training, AND stay up to date on it... what good is having the kit? The "advanced" first-aid class given to the army (combat life saver), which seems to actually be more the standard these days requires re-certification every year and is typically a full two days for re-cert, 4-5 days for initial. SO consider that when selecting your courses to attend- 2-4 hours isn't going to cut it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jabronie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">really thats interesting to know,thanks for the up date, i was just repeating what i was taught in boy scout years ago, which was to use the tourniquet as a last resort only, because you can potental get suiwed </div></div>
No problem! We have came a LONG way in the last decade in terms of trama aid; looking back on it is really very impressive.
But as the guy a couple posts up said- all the kit in the world is useless if you don't know how to properly use it. Advanced first-aid classes are a must for anyone serious about this stuff. Take CPR- the ratio of breaths to pumps has changed a bunch of times. If you don't take the training, AND stay up to date on it... what good is having the kit? The "advanced" first-aid class given to the army (combat life saver), which seems to actually be more the standard these days requires re-certification every year and is typically a full two days for re-cert, 4-5 days for initial. SO consider that when selecting your courses to attend- 2-4 hours isn't going to cut it.
Re: med kits
In the end opinion has to give way to current research and practice. If that weren't true I might treat some people one way and others another, or I might treat people differently due to a personal experience I've had. That's why I've always said my "opinion" is really worthless. I treat people according to the best current medical literature which I would like to point out is constantly changing. Interesting enough after med. school I did my specialty training in Emergency Medicine at Sparrow Hospital in Lansing, MI. where DP425 is from. This is also home of the American Board of Emergency Medicine which I remain a member of. If I can have the last word I still think Condoms and Viagra are the cornerstone to any medical Kit!
In the end opinion has to give way to current research and practice. If that weren't true I might treat some people one way and others another, or I might treat people differently due to a personal experience I've had. That's why I've always said my "opinion" is really worthless. I treat people according to the best current medical literature which I would like to point out is constantly changing. Interesting enough after med. school I did my specialty training in Emergency Medicine at Sparrow Hospital in Lansing, MI. where DP425 is from. This is also home of the American Board of Emergency Medicine which I remain a member of. If I can have the last word I still think Condoms and Viagra are the cornerstone to any medical Kit!
Re: med kits
Great stuff here. Not a whole lot of elaboration to add here, as I'm not a medical professional or a trained caregiver. I think the bottom line is this:
1) GET FORMAL TRAINING FOR ANY GEAR YOU'RE GOING TO USE IN AN EMERGENCY FIRST AID SITUATION;
2) Practice, Practice, Practice. It could be a friend or loved one that you're trying to keep alive.;
3) Invest in quality items and keep them handy. You never know where you'll be when a situation arises;
With regard to the legal consequences of administering emergency aid, I'm not a lawyer but am a human being who cares about others. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I saw somebody bleed out & I did nothing because I was worried about a lawsuit. It is unfortuantely that we have to worry about such things in this day & age (damn lawyers), but it's a risk I'd be willing to take 24/7/365.
Great stuff here. Not a whole lot of elaboration to add here, as I'm not a medical professional or a trained caregiver. I think the bottom line is this:
1) GET FORMAL TRAINING FOR ANY GEAR YOU'RE GOING TO USE IN AN EMERGENCY FIRST AID SITUATION;
2) Practice, Practice, Practice. It could be a friend or loved one that you're trying to keep alive.;
3) Invest in quality items and keep them handy. You never know where you'll be when a situation arises;
With regard to the legal consequences of administering emergency aid, I'm not a lawyer but am a human being who cares about others. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I saw somebody bleed out & I did nothing because I was worried about a lawsuit. It is unfortuantely that we have to worry about such things in this day & age (damn lawyers), but it's a risk I'd be willing to take 24/7/365.
Re: med kits
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jabronie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowfinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just got back from fishing with the kids so I can elaborate further tomorrow if anyone is interested. Obviously, there are a lot of pre-packaged kits out there and everybody has to make a buck. There are some advantages to researching these kits, then putting one together yourself. First is obviously cost savings as you can buy the same supplies for pennies on the dollar from your local Ag store like "Big R", "Ranch Supply", etc. Second, if you take the time to put a kit together you know what you have, where it's at, and why you have it. For cuts, smashed fingers,superficial wounds, and broken bones your really taking about minor stuff to provide comfort or cover a wound till you get to the local Doc shop or home. When you start looking at "buying time" some basic training and knowledge probably more important than the amount you payed for your kit. A few bad things that I can think of which can come up on the range or in the woods shooting are: Gunshot wounds, knife wounds, explosions, chemical exposures, and even seizures. You can "almost" always slow or stop bleeding with focused firm pressure. This can be a finger, palm, elbow, etc. Tourniquets are "almost" never used unless nothing else works and the bleeding is profuse. Even then they have to be watched closely. Burns covered with clean moist wet gauze(there are more expensive burn dressings but there just going to take them off and through them away when you get to the ER). Saline eye wash is always a good thing for irrigating chemical exposures to the eyes and face(This is really cheap). Seizures are more frequent than you would imagine and they tend to scare people. Seizures usually look worse than they are, and for the most part you turn the person to their side in case they puke make sure they don't choke or hit their head. It seems like they last minutes when it's usually only seconds. On the other hand if you were taking an extended trip where medical care is a few days away, then your talking splint material, antibiotics, pain medications, etc.........and some condoms and Viagra aren't a bad idea!......If anyone is really serious about putting together or buying a medical kit I'd be glad to make some suggestions but a little first aid training most of the time makes up for all the basic equipment money can buy. A good analogy would be if I went out and bought a high end bench gun. I can afford it and brag about how good it is but with my limited training I could never shoot it as well as some of you can shoot a cheaper off the shelf gun. Anyway, sorry if I was to long winded,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,JS </div></div>
I disagree with the statements on the tourniquet, but other than that, spot on. </div></div>
well its kind of a legal nightmare to use a tourniquet, if you cant get that person to a hospital befor an hour after using a tourniquet they have to amputate because its too late to save the limb, you would be better off legaly to let the guy bleed to death over using a tourniquet or get your self into a lawsuit and lose most likly because the guy lost an arm or a leg, if you cant get permision to use it by the victom i wouldnt use a tourniquet </div></div>
Amputate if not to the hospital in under an hour? WHAT? You are putting out some very old information:
http://www.tacmedsolutions.com/blog/?p=167
The fact is, hundreds, if not thousands <span style="text-decoration: underline">more</span> men and women would be missing limbs from the last 11 years of war if the "1 hour rule" to tourniquets were true. First, the generally accepted limit when not using methods to flush the acid build-up is 2 hours, which can be extended by releasing the tourniquet for a few minutes prior to the 2 hour mark. It can go much longer if the ER doctors are informed how long the tourniquet has been on, if there has been release time and are not complete retards with modern methods of limb recovery from tourniquet use.
So wide-spread is the use of tourniquets that all soldiers and marines are issued one in their first aid kit... instruction now dictates that if it is deep red arterial bleeding, you move straight to a tourniquet then once the bleeding has stopped, apply a bandage to keep the wound as clean as possible. They have literally became a first step for many wounds that 10 years ago would have seen attempts at dressing, pressure dressing and improvised tourniquets. They are the single biggest life-saving application of aid on the battle field. If soldiers can go hours before removal of the tourniquet and not have limbs amputated, there is no reason someone here in the states with the fast access to hospitals and ER's would have any worse of a chance.
Oh and if legal issues are your concern- check into the laws of the state you are in- some allow a person to use any life saving means for which they have knowledge in to give another aid and cannot face a civil suit. Others don't have such nice protections. Those without such protections, if you are worried about legal problems, you'd best keep on about your business. You run the risk of litigation for what you do, but also for what you DO NOT do (You knew about tourniquets but only applied pressure- individual bled out and family says you caused the loss of life by not applying your knowledge or by preventing someone who may have done so by acting since you were already there, providing a lower level of aid than needed. Just like in self defense shootings, fear of litigation should never enter your mind. If it does, you should remove yourself from the situation without acting. In matters of life and death, you don't have the luxury to contemplate litigation possibilities. I would hate to meet the individual who would stand over a person with arterial bleeding in their leg and ponder what to do based on finding themselves in court. </div></div>
Brother, I could not agree with you more.
1980 dont use torniquets because you ill get sued.
2012 Use when needed to save a life.
I dont drive my vehicle down the street without a tourniquet after going through Combat Life Saver and seeing it used in field
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jabronie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowfinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just got back from fishing with the kids so I can elaborate further tomorrow if anyone is interested. Obviously, there are a lot of pre-packaged kits out there and everybody has to make a buck. There are some advantages to researching these kits, then putting one together yourself. First is obviously cost savings as you can buy the same supplies for pennies on the dollar from your local Ag store like "Big R", "Ranch Supply", etc. Second, if you take the time to put a kit together you know what you have, where it's at, and why you have it. For cuts, smashed fingers,superficial wounds, and broken bones your really taking about minor stuff to provide comfort or cover a wound till you get to the local Doc shop or home. When you start looking at "buying time" some basic training and knowledge probably more important than the amount you payed for your kit. A few bad things that I can think of which can come up on the range or in the woods shooting are: Gunshot wounds, knife wounds, explosions, chemical exposures, and even seizures. You can "almost" always slow or stop bleeding with focused firm pressure. This can be a finger, palm, elbow, etc. Tourniquets are "almost" never used unless nothing else works and the bleeding is profuse. Even then they have to be watched closely. Burns covered with clean moist wet gauze(there are more expensive burn dressings but there just going to take them off and through them away when you get to the ER). Saline eye wash is always a good thing for irrigating chemical exposures to the eyes and face(This is really cheap). Seizures are more frequent than you would imagine and they tend to scare people. Seizures usually look worse than they are, and for the most part you turn the person to their side in case they puke make sure they don't choke or hit their head. It seems like they last minutes when it's usually only seconds. On the other hand if you were taking an extended trip where medical care is a few days away, then your talking splint material, antibiotics, pain medications, etc.........and some condoms and Viagra aren't a bad idea!......If anyone is really serious about putting together or buying a medical kit I'd be glad to make some suggestions but a little first aid training most of the time makes up for all the basic equipment money can buy. A good analogy would be if I went out and bought a high end bench gun. I can afford it and brag about how good it is but with my limited training I could never shoot it as well as some of you can shoot a cheaper off the shelf gun. Anyway, sorry if I was to long winded,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,JS </div></div>
I disagree with the statements on the tourniquet, but other than that, spot on. </div></div>
well its kind of a legal nightmare to use a tourniquet, if you cant get that person to a hospital befor an hour after using a tourniquet they have to amputate because its too late to save the limb, you would be better off legaly to let the guy bleed to death over using a tourniquet or get your self into a lawsuit and lose most likly because the guy lost an arm or a leg, if you cant get permision to use it by the victom i wouldnt use a tourniquet </div></div>
Amputate if not to the hospital in under an hour? WHAT? You are putting out some very old information:
http://www.tacmedsolutions.com/blog/?p=167
The fact is, hundreds, if not thousands <span style="text-decoration: underline">more</span> men and women would be missing limbs from the last 11 years of war if the "1 hour rule" to tourniquets were true. First, the generally accepted limit when not using methods to flush the acid build-up is 2 hours, which can be extended by releasing the tourniquet for a few minutes prior to the 2 hour mark. It can go much longer if the ER doctors are informed how long the tourniquet has been on, if there has been release time and are not complete retards with modern methods of limb recovery from tourniquet use.
So wide-spread is the use of tourniquets that all soldiers and marines are issued one in their first aid kit... instruction now dictates that if it is deep red arterial bleeding, you move straight to a tourniquet then once the bleeding has stopped, apply a bandage to keep the wound as clean as possible. They have literally became a first step for many wounds that 10 years ago would have seen attempts at dressing, pressure dressing and improvised tourniquets. They are the single biggest life-saving application of aid on the battle field. If soldiers can go hours before removal of the tourniquet and not have limbs amputated, there is no reason someone here in the states with the fast access to hospitals and ER's would have any worse of a chance.
Oh and if legal issues are your concern- check into the laws of the state you are in- some allow a person to use any life saving means for which they have knowledge in to give another aid and cannot face a civil suit. Others don't have such nice protections. Those without such protections, if you are worried about legal problems, you'd best keep on about your business. You run the risk of litigation for what you do, but also for what you DO NOT do (You knew about tourniquets but only applied pressure- individual bled out and family says you caused the loss of life by not applying your knowledge or by preventing someone who may have done so by acting since you were already there, providing a lower level of aid than needed. Just like in self defense shootings, fear of litigation should never enter your mind. If it does, you should remove yourself from the situation without acting. In matters of life and death, you don't have the luxury to contemplate litigation possibilities. I would hate to meet the individual who would stand over a person with arterial bleeding in their leg and ponder what to do based on finding themselves in court. </div></div>
Brother, I could not agree with you more.
1980 dont use torniquets because you ill get sued.
2012 Use when needed to save a life.
I dont drive my vehicle down the street without a tourniquet after going through Combat Life Saver and seeing it used in field
Re: med kits
I'm part of Mountain Rescue here in England in one of the busiest teams in the country so have seen my fair share of medical and trauma in wild and remote places. We carry some fairly sophisticated kit but at the end of the day you can only do so much on the hill, the cas needs to be evacuated as quickly as possible to definitive medical care - end of.
Training at any level is good, the objective to keep them alive long enough for help to arrive or to get them to a hospital.
I'm part of Mountain Rescue here in England in one of the busiest teams in the country so have seen my fair share of medical and trauma in wild and remote places. We carry some fairly sophisticated kit but at the end of the day you can only do so much on the hill, the cas needs to be evacuated as quickly as possible to definitive medical care - end of.
Training at any level is good, the objective to keep them alive long enough for help to arrive or to get them to a hospital.
Re: med kits
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowfinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did my specialty training in Emergency Medicine at Sparrow Hospital in Lansing, MI. where DP425 is from. </div></div>
I am so sorry to hear that! Unless it was some time ago and the city was still nice....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowfinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did my specialty training in Emergency Medicine at Sparrow Hospital in Lansing, MI. where DP425 is from. </div></div>
I am so sorry to hear that! Unless it was some time ago and the city was still nice....
Re: med kits
Some good info here.
I always keep these items within arms reach
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003BS2PW4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_6?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER
http://www.amazon.com/Israeli-Battle-Dre..._bxgy_hpc_img_b
http://www.amazon.com/C-A-T-Combat-Appli...4193&sr=1-2
and my training is Wilderness First Responder. You would have to check your local laws but most have a good samaritan laws that protect the person trying to help someone
Some good info here.
I always keep these items within arms reach
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003BS2PW4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_6?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER
http://www.amazon.com/Israeli-Battle-Dre..._bxgy_hpc_img_b
http://www.amazon.com/C-A-T-Combat-Appli...4193&sr=1-2
and my training is Wilderness First Responder. You would have to check your local laws but most have a good samaritan laws that protect the person trying to help someone
Re: med kits
I recently attended an LE self aid/buddy aid class at OPOTA. According to the doctors the tourniquets are being left on in the field for over 2 hours with no issue. They stated that combat medics are doing the same in A-stan and Iraq. I'm no medic/emt/FF so if this is incorrect please let me know. Also good samaritan covers you (check local laws).
Chris
+1 on what Tactical and DP425 wrote
I recently attended an LE self aid/buddy aid class at OPOTA. According to the doctors the tourniquets are being left on in the field for over 2 hours with no issue. They stated that combat medics are doing the same in A-stan and Iraq. I'm no medic/emt/FF so if this is incorrect please let me know. Also good samaritan covers you (check local laws).
Chris
+1 on what Tactical and DP425 wrote
Re: med kits
I am a former USAF Pararescue Specialist. I never leave for the range without my BOK in my (left for life) thigh pocket. Although I am trained in the emergency care of others I do this strictly to aide ME. In the civilian world there is probably no better place to suffer a GSW than on the shooting range. I would hate to be DOA and have the off duty doctor who was present at the match say "I might have saved him if I could have supported his airway or relieved that pneumothorax."
In other words, don't always think about a medical kit as someting you'll have to know how to use on others.
I am a former USAF Pararescue Specialist. I never leave for the range without my BOK in my (left for life) thigh pocket. Although I am trained in the emergency care of others I do this strictly to aide ME. In the civilian world there is probably no better place to suffer a GSW than on the shooting range. I would hate to be DOA and have the off duty doctor who was present at the match say "I might have saved him if I could have supported his airway or relieved that pneumothorax."
In other words, don't always think about a medical kit as someting you'll have to know how to use on others.
Re: med kits
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RobbNJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am a former USAF Pararescue Specialist. I never leave for the range without my BOK in my (left for life) thigh pocket. Although I am trained in the emergency care of others I do this strictly to aide ME. In the civilian world there is probably no better place to suffer a GSW than on the shooting range. I would hate to be DOA and have the off duty doctor who was present at the match say "I might have saved him if I could have supported his airway or relieved that pneumothorax."
In other words, don't always think about a medical kit as someting you'll have to know how to use on others. </div></div>
That's a damn good point! There are a lot of people who know how to treat trama wounds out and about who do not bring supplies with them. Your kit may save your life thanks to someone else's knowledge.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RobbNJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am a former USAF Pararescue Specialist. I never leave for the range without my BOK in my (left for life) thigh pocket. Although I am trained in the emergency care of others I do this strictly to aide ME. In the civilian world there is probably no better place to suffer a GSW than on the shooting range. I would hate to be DOA and have the off duty doctor who was present at the match say "I might have saved him if I could have supported his airway or relieved that pneumothorax."
In other words, don't always think about a medical kit as someting you'll have to know how to use on others. </div></div>
That's a damn good point! There are a lot of people who know how to treat trama wounds out and about who do not bring supplies with them. Your kit may save your life thanks to someone else's knowledge.
Re: med kits
+1 on the Tourniquet use for more than an hour. When I first got started a tourniquet was for last resort, and even then you would record the time applied on the pt's forehead so the surgical team would know. Now they are used for major bleeds as a first line of defense, and with great success. I personally like to get my kit from Tac Med Solutions. They also have a great education portal with articles and videos to stay on top new studies and procedures.
https://www.tacmedsolutions.com/store/index.php
+1 on the Tourniquet use for more than an hour. When I first got started a tourniquet was for last resort, and even then you would record the time applied on the pt's forehead so the surgical team would know. Now they are used for major bleeds as a first line of defense, and with great success. I personally like to get my kit from Tac Med Solutions. They also have a great education portal with articles and videos to stay on top new studies and procedures.
https://www.tacmedsolutions.com/store/index.php
Re: med kits
I've had to stitch myself up backcountry skiing once (dental floss kinda worked) & I've used the super glue/duct tape combo many times hunting.
My unofficial unprofessional opinion is that you need to build a kit around your strengths. 90% of what I've needed in the field has been taken care of with super glue, gauze, duct tape, alcohol pads, Advil, Vicodin, a Sam splint or two, and an ace bandage. I've upgraded from floss to actual suture kits, but haven't had an opportunity to test them out.... I'm ok with that.
Most of the prepackaged kits have too many things I either don't have the training to use properly, or simply don't ever have a use for.
I've had to stitch myself up backcountry skiing once (dental floss kinda worked) & I've used the super glue/duct tape combo many times hunting.
My unofficial unprofessional opinion is that you need to build a kit around your strengths. 90% of what I've needed in the field has been taken care of with super glue, gauze, duct tape, alcohol pads, Advil, Vicodin, a Sam splint or two, and an ace bandage. I've upgraded from floss to actual suture kits, but haven't had an opportunity to test them out.... I'm ok with that.
Most of the prepackaged kits have too many things I either don't have the training to use properly, or simply don't ever have a use for.
Re: med kits
Lots of neato stuff on that site. Most useful might be the burn related items. The other jazz is not practical for everyday shit happens kind of stuff.
Think about the EVERYDAY "hazards" you encounter and come up with a kit. It'll get used. I've used my very small kit several times.
Reality check...Sutures in the field sound like a great idea but really irrigation and some sort of disinfection method is the key in an open wound. creative thinking will find a solution to an open wound if it's a long time till definitive care.
First responder courses are offered all over and can get you started on how best to focus on prehospital care and what to carry in the field, or youtube>)
I would not recommend a kit like the ones offered on the web site you listed. Unless you are a pro working in the type of environment shown...and if you are, well enough said
Lots of neato stuff on that site. Most useful might be the burn related items. The other jazz is not practical for everyday shit happens kind of stuff.
Think about the EVERYDAY "hazards" you encounter and come up with a kit. It'll get used. I've used my very small kit several times.
Reality check...Sutures in the field sound like a great idea but really irrigation and some sort of disinfection method is the key in an open wound. creative thinking will find a solution to an open wound if it's a long time till definitive care.
First responder courses are offered all over and can get you started on how best to focus on prehospital care and what to carry in the field, or youtube>)
I would not recommend a kit like the ones offered on the web site you listed. Unless you are a pro working in the type of environment shown...and if you are, well enough said
Re: med kits
Well, It's nice to see this top has still been interesting people while I was STUCK IN THE MOUNTAINS OF MONTANA FOR 2 DAYS AND JUST GOT OUT VIA HELICOPTER YESTERDAY. I'm sore and have an interesting tail to tell if anyone is interested please tell me the appropriate place to elaborate......Thank you!
On of my initial comments was that Tourniquets were "ALMOST" never used. Please note the almost! All bleeding should be controlled IF POSSIBLE without. I do this everyday in my career and can ALMOST stop all bleeding without them. However, in military and law enforcement they are often used and getting to be more popular. I the case of multiple victims or severe bleeding from lets say a GSW in a hostile environment they are a tool to stop bleeding until you can evacuate the victim to a safer environment or have more resources arrive on seen. Most bleeding arm or leg injuries from GSW can always be controlled with a pressure dressing if one has time to apply it. They exception obviously is if a major artery is hit of the limb is practically amputated. I use them all the time in the ER to stop bleeding long enough to see what I'm doing and tie of the source of bleeding a repair the damage. I always write down the time I applied it and always take it off after 45-60 min. for at least a short break. Although I would never do it unless I had to in the field the current literature seems to indicate that a limb can be without blood flow for up to 4 hours and still usually makes a slow but complete recovery. As for the legality and lawyers I personally try not to let this effect my decision making. I always treat everyone as if they were my own family member. I'd rather go to court and explain why I did everything I could to help someone than say I didn't do something because I was worried about getting sued.
I use to do a 10-15 min. clip every week years ago on Michigan Outdoors TV. It was always a topic related to injuries or medical dangers related to the time of year or upcoming events like hunting, fishing, etc. If there is an interest I'd be glad to do the same for members of this website as well. I wouldn't however like to see it turn into a "who has the biggest ---" contest and debate every detail of every post.
For instance, who knows the current treatment of a rattlesnake bite". I took care of 8 of them last season and will soon be seeing plenty of them in the following months. How about black widow or recluse spider bites? they are going increasing soon with the warm weather. What's the difference between these bites, how do you know when to seek help and what could you have in your first aid pack to help someone out.
Also, in closing a first aid kit is a good idea to have around even if you don't have any training because there is a good chance someone around will have some medical training and need to use yours..................Take Care.........JS
Well, It's nice to see this top has still been interesting people while I was STUCK IN THE MOUNTAINS OF MONTANA FOR 2 DAYS AND JUST GOT OUT VIA HELICOPTER YESTERDAY. I'm sore and have an interesting tail to tell if anyone is interested please tell me the appropriate place to elaborate......Thank you!
On of my initial comments was that Tourniquets were "ALMOST" never used. Please note the almost! All bleeding should be controlled IF POSSIBLE without. I do this everyday in my career and can ALMOST stop all bleeding without them. However, in military and law enforcement they are often used and getting to be more popular. I the case of multiple victims or severe bleeding from lets say a GSW in a hostile environment they are a tool to stop bleeding until you can evacuate the victim to a safer environment or have more resources arrive on seen. Most bleeding arm or leg injuries from GSW can always be controlled with a pressure dressing if one has time to apply it. They exception obviously is if a major artery is hit of the limb is practically amputated. I use them all the time in the ER to stop bleeding long enough to see what I'm doing and tie of the source of bleeding a repair the damage. I always write down the time I applied it and always take it off after 45-60 min. for at least a short break. Although I would never do it unless I had to in the field the current literature seems to indicate that a limb can be without blood flow for up to 4 hours and still usually makes a slow but complete recovery. As for the legality and lawyers I personally try not to let this effect my decision making. I always treat everyone as if they were my own family member. I'd rather go to court and explain why I did everything I could to help someone than say I didn't do something because I was worried about getting sued.
I use to do a 10-15 min. clip every week years ago on Michigan Outdoors TV. It was always a topic related to injuries or medical dangers related to the time of year or upcoming events like hunting, fishing, etc. If there is an interest I'd be glad to do the same for members of this website as well. I wouldn't however like to see it turn into a "who has the biggest ---" contest and debate every detail of every post.
For instance, who knows the current treatment of a rattlesnake bite". I took care of 8 of them last season and will soon be seeing plenty of them in the following months. How about black widow or recluse spider bites? they are going increasing soon with the warm weather. What's the difference between these bites, how do you know when to seek help and what could you have in your first aid pack to help someone out.
Also, in closing a first aid kit is a good idea to have around even if you don't have any training because there is a good chance someone around will have some medical training and need to use yours..................Take Care.........JS
Re: med kits
+1 JS!!
Always interested in the current protocols for medical treatment.
+1 JS!!
Always interested in the current protocols for medical treatment.
Re: med kits
I'd love to hear that story JS!
I'd love to hear that story JS!
Re: med kits
JS,
I think these types of posts from a qualified professional would be outstanding! A little knowledge can go a long way before the real help arrives. Thanks!
Aaron
JS,
I think these types of posts from a qualified professional would be outstanding! A little knowledge can go a long way before the real help arrives. Thanks!
Aaron
Re: med kits
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPS308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would really like to have current information on field treatment of snake/spider bites. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPS308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would really like to have current information on field treatment of snake/spider bites. </div></div>
Re: med kits
I completely agree. Amazing interventions have been developed in the last 10+ years one of them being limb survival due to tourniquets. As a civilian paramedic I expect us to see them in the not too distant future. And as for legal issues: you either do nothing or do everything you have the knowledge to do. People are always going to bitch one way or another. You cant make everyone happy. If you save their life but they lose their limb you wont be up at night thinking, "I could have done something else."
I completely agree. Amazing interventions have been developed in the last 10+ years one of them being limb survival due to tourniquets. As a civilian paramedic I expect us to see them in the not too distant future. And as for legal issues: you either do nothing or do everything you have the knowledge to do. People are always going to bitch one way or another. You cant make everyone happy. If you save their life but they lose their limb you wont be up at night thinking, "I could have done something else."
Re: med kits
Bump - hey bowfinger - time to deliver!
Bump - hey bowfinger - time to deliver!
Re: med kits
AGREED, Always need to be prepared. like owning a gun with one magazine? wheel the rest into battle in a wheelbarrow? just doesn't make sense. Medical kits are great multi purpose things to have on hand, just like food storage, water,ammo??? 72HR kit in a backpack ready to go is the next on my list. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BALLISTIC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Powder Burns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why would a civilian need a medkit? </div></div>
You are right...civilians, by title alone, are protected from injuries, and therefore have no need for a medical kit. Which probably means they don't need guns, fire extinguishers, or any knowledge pertaining to these devices, because someone who's job it is to use these tools will be along shortly to take care of the problem. </div></div>
AGREED, Always need to be prepared. like owning a gun with one magazine? wheel the rest into battle in a wheelbarrow? just doesn't make sense. Medical kits are great multi purpose things to have on hand, just like food storage, water,ammo??? 72HR kit in a backpack ready to go is the next on my list. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BALLISTIC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Powder Burns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why would a civilian need a medkit?
You are right...civilians, by title alone, are protected from injuries, and therefore have no need for a medical kit. Which probably means they don't need guns, fire extinguishers, or any knowledge pertaining to these devices, because someone who's job it is to use these tools will be along shortly to take care of the problem.
</div></div>
Re: med kits
Great info here
Great info here
Re: med kits
My personal blow-out/trauma kit contains:
Combat Application Tourniquet (CAT)
2 rolls of gauze for packing wounds, which I need to replace with quikclot gauze, which has all but replaced the powder.
6" pressure bandage
chest seal
nose-hose
medical tape
medical shears
gloves
Narescue.com sells an "individual patrol officer" kit (look under NTOA recommended products) for under $50 with no combat gauze and $100 with gauze (discounts to LE/EMS/Fire/Mil), that would be a good place to start.
If you buy one, go ahead and buy four. One for your home, one for your car, one for your range bag, one for the sniper ruck.
And get some training. Everyone loves to "go shooting", but first aid/trauma, stop the bleeding, start the breathing, skills are far more likely to be used/useful life-saving skills then working real hard to develop the skills necessary to make a shot at 800 yards.
My personal blow-out/trauma kit contains:
Combat Application Tourniquet (CAT)
2 rolls of gauze for packing wounds, which I need to replace with quikclot gauze, which has all but replaced the powder.
6" pressure bandage
chest seal
nose-hose
medical tape
medical shears
gloves
Narescue.com sells an "individual patrol officer" kit (look under NTOA recommended products) for under $50 with no combat gauze and $100 with gauze (discounts to LE/EMS/Fire/Mil), that would be a good place to start.
If you buy one, go ahead and buy four. One for your home, one for your car, one for your range bag, one for the sniper ruck.
And get some training. Everyone loves to "go shooting", but first aid/trauma, stop the bleeding, start the breathing, skills are far more likely to be used/useful life-saving skills then working real hard to develop the skills necessary to make a shot at 800 yards.
Re: med kits
You can save your self a little cash if you can get a hold of some expired pediatric defib pads from a local EMS or fire service and you end up with two great chest seals for free. Just cut the cords off (or keep them on doesn't matter). The whole issue of the asherman chest seal being able to release pressure on it's own is almost an urban legend. I have in the last 15 years had better luck with a plastic wrapper off some othe item and tape (just have to wipe the blood off to get it to stick well, although the same can be said with all the other options in that area).
You can save your self a little cash if you can get a hold of some expired pediatric defib pads from a local EMS or fire service and you end up with two great chest seals for free. Just cut the cords off (or keep them on doesn't matter). The whole issue of the asherman chest seal being able to release pressure on it's own is almost an urban legend. I have in the last 15 years had better luck with a plastic wrapper off some othe item and tape (just have to wipe the blood off to get it to stick well, although the same can be said with all the other options in that area).
Re: med kits
Good thread with a lot of good points most of all find a local first aid course and maintain CPR training to bring your knowledge up and maintain your confidence. Whenever you go out know where you are and have a cell phone or means of calling for aid. If you are way out a GPS so that you can give an exact location would be great. It might sound odd but many times folks just don’t know where they are even on the side of the road and lots of critical time is wasted looking for you.
As for kits keep it simple and focus on the most common and life threats for those outdoors shooting you might want to think about allergic reactions and also fire arm injuries. Bee stings are a lot more common and fatal then fire arm injuries. If you or any member of your group are allergic to bees make sure you have an epi pen, Benadryl and pepcid or tagamet both over the counter, these three things will go a long way to managing the reaction.
As for fire arm injuries, penetrating injuries to the head must be managed in the OR. Dressing the wound and trying to maintain the airway until EMS can arrive and evacuate is the best you can do. Injuries to the chest/ABD also must be managed in the OR. You can cover with plastic and hold in place with tape but they must get to a surgeon. Injuries to extremities where bleeding is arterial can be successfully managed with application of tourniquet and can be left in place for many hours (life or limb). Injuries to groin or in other areas where a tourniquet cannot be applied can be managed with combat gauze or sterile gauze by packing the wound and then applying an ace bandage tightly around the injury site. Both of these methods are extremely painful but recent experience has shown very favorable out comes. NAR has some very good videos on their web site and I’m sure there are many other sites out these as well with information.
Good thread with a lot of good points most of all find a local first aid course and maintain CPR training to bring your knowledge up and maintain your confidence. Whenever you go out know where you are and have a cell phone or means of calling for aid. If you are way out a GPS so that you can give an exact location would be great. It might sound odd but many times folks just don’t know where they are even on the side of the road and lots of critical time is wasted looking for you.
As for kits keep it simple and focus on the most common and life threats for those outdoors shooting you might want to think about allergic reactions and also fire arm injuries. Bee stings are a lot more common and fatal then fire arm injuries. If you or any member of your group are allergic to bees make sure you have an epi pen, Benadryl and pepcid or tagamet both over the counter, these three things will go a long way to managing the reaction.
As for fire arm injuries, penetrating injuries to the head must be managed in the OR. Dressing the wound and trying to maintain the airway until EMS can arrive and evacuate is the best you can do. Injuries to the chest/ABD also must be managed in the OR. You can cover with plastic and hold in place with tape but they must get to a surgeon. Injuries to extremities where bleeding is arterial can be successfully managed with application of tourniquet and can be left in place for many hours (life or limb). Injuries to groin or in other areas where a tourniquet cannot be applied can be managed with combat gauze or sterile gauze by packing the wound and then applying an ace bandage tightly around the injury site. Both of these methods are extremely painful but recent experience has shown very favorable out comes. NAR has some very good videos on their web site and I’m sure there are many other sites out these as well with information.
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