Midrange Prone AR Tactical class

milanuk

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  • Mar 23, 2002
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    Just out of curiosity, how many here have tried this new class?

    What's the turn-out like for it at matches local to you?
     

    Joel Danielson

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    I know of a couple guys who are getting rifles built to try it next year. My biggest concern is squading with regular f-class shooters. I don't want to shoot next to someone using a flash hider, and hot brass bouncing off me. It will be interesting to see how match directors try to interpret the rules for flashhiders vs.muzzle brakes, what rear tactical bags can look like, etc...
     

    milanuk

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  • Mar 23, 2002
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    I know of a couple guys who are getting rifles built to try it next year.
    Yep, I'm one of those ;)

    My biggest concern is squading with regular f-class shooters. I don't want to shoot next to someone using a flash hider, and hot brass bouncing off me.
    So... you've never, ever been squadded next to a Service Rifle (or gas-gun Match Rifle) shooter in a Prone match? Pretty much the same thing...

    Pro-tip #1: Don't wear shorts! ;)
    Pro-tip #2: There's a reason those Service/Match Rifle guys wear hooded sweatshirts under their shooting jackets even in the summer - and it ain't cuz it looks cool ;)

    *Usually* after the first time of someone shooting a completely 'stock' AR15 for Service Rifle and peppering the person next door with hot brass (even another sling shooter), they get a quick lesson on how to 'neuter' the ejector by taking a coil or two off the spring so that it throws them at ~1 o'clock, rather than 2:30-4:30 like they do 'stock'. Beats the crap out of being squadded next to some codger with a CMP Garand. Not much you can do about the ejection on those, and a hot '06 case to the head friggin' stings.

    That said... hopefully people will figure out some way to keep their brass from flying all over tarnation - if for no other reason than it's a PITA to have to go hunt them down afterwards. Stick a shooting stool, range bag, 5 gallon bucket, something between them and the next shooter.

    It will be interesting to see how match directors try to interpret the rules for flashhiders vs.muzzle brakes, what rear tactical bags can look like, etc...
    I think the flash hider part will be pretty simple... A2 flash hider (again, like Service Rifle), anything 'more aggressive' is probably going to be considered a brake.

    I can see why match directors may not like the class... there is a lot of 'interpretive intent' language in the rules. Most MDs are busy with running the match, making sure everything is on time and above all else, *safe*. Adjudicating the finer points of whether a particular piece of gear is within the rules - particularly if it's not "their" discipline - is not high on their priority list on a good day...
     

    Joel Danielson

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    Yep, I'm one of those ;)



    So... you've never, ever been squadded next to a Service Rifle (or gas-gun Match Rifle) shooter in a Prone match? Pretty much the same thing...

    Pro-tip #1: Don't wear shorts! ;)
    Pro-tip #2: There's a reason those Service/Match Rifle guys wear hooded sweatshirts under their shooting jackets even in the summer - and it ain't cuz it looks cool ;)

    *Usually* after the first time of someone shooting a completely 'stock' AR15 for Service Rifle and peppering the person next door with hot brass (even another sling shooter), they get a quick lesson on how to 'neuter' the ejector by taking a coil or two off the spring so that it throws them at ~1 o'clock, rather than 2:30-4:30 like they do 'stock'. Beats the crap out of being squadded next to some codger with a CMP Garand. Not much you can do about the ejection on those, and a hot '06 case to the head friggin' stings.

    That said... hopefully people will figure out some way to keep their brass from flying all over tarnation - if for no other reason than it's a PITA to have to go hunt them down afterwards. Stick a shooting stool, range bag, 5 gallon bucket, something between them and the next shooter.



    I think the flash hider part will be pretty simple... A2 flash hider (again, like Service Rifle), anything 'more aggressive' is probably going to be considered a brake.

    I can see why match directors may not like the class... there is a lot of 'interpretive intent' language in the rules. Most MDs are busy with running the match, making sure everything is on time and above all else, *safe*. Adjudicating the finer points of whether a particular piece of gear is within the rules - particularly if it's not "their" discipline - is not high on their priority list on a good day...
    I never have been squadded next to a gas gun in a match. I used to run a Monday night league where we would let guys that had brakes on their rifles shoot at the far end of the firing point together (22 firing points). The other big change is 5-30 round magazines vs having a single loading sled in the rifle.

    Most guys I have seen shooting gas guns figure out some kind of a barricade to put between them and the shooter next to them to stop the brass from hitting that person.

    You are spot on with the match director having a lot on their plate when it comes to running a match of any size. I have been the MD at several state and regional matches, and the last thing I want to deal with on the firing line is whether equipment is legal or not. I have deferred to the designated rules committee that is named for that match in some situations.

    Your biggest problem is going to be MD's that aren't familiar with the discipline, let alone what is appropriate equipment. Good luck...
     

    milanuk

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  • Mar 23, 2002
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    Most of the 'club' matches I've shot over the years were a bit smaller than that... wasn't uncommon to have mixed relays of sling and F-class, and where you have midrange sling, invariably you have some SR guy working on his Prone. That's how I've been squadded with them, at least. Probably also because I used to shoot SR/MR/Palma, so I don't mind the occasional stray brass as much as some might.

    Yeah, there's any number of things in the 'rules' for the class that probably sounded good as a general 'idea'... but leave a lot to be desired in actual implementation. The probationary period for the class ended in January, so in theory it's "for real" now... but about the only thing they changed was separating .223/5.56 from everything else.

    The emphasis on the use of magazines, vs. SLEDs... almost seems to infer the use of mag-fed ammo - or at least mag-length - but the rest of the rule book is pretty specific about slow-fire prone matches being single-load only, and the only nod to ammunition under 3.3.3 just refers back to the usual 'any safe ammo' language in the main body of the rules. Very disappointing, for sure.

    We (I) run pretty small matches locally... so I tend to be more 'liberal' / inclusive when it comes to stuff like the finer points in the rule book. Typically either make them aware that I can't turn their score in to the NRA with their given config, and they may not be eligible for any class awards (in theory, I try to have an 'Other' category for people who fall outside the NRA rulebook, whether it's a can, brake, whatever. In practice... very rarely have enough at any one match to make a viable 'class' for awards). Most folks in that situation are at the point where having the scores turned into the NRA means nothing to them, and usually they work at fixing it by the next event (we usually have 3-5 per year - so everyone lives ;)
     

    smoothy8500

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    wasn't uncommon to have mixed relays of sling and F-class, and where you have midrange sling, invariably you have some SR guy working on his Prone
    I recently started "dabbling" in the prone tactical AR class. The local clubs treat it like the SR guys doing prone practice.
     

    kentuckyMarksman

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    I've tried the AR Tactical Prone match. It was fun and I enjoyed it. Funny, I had just built up a new rifle last year and it fit the rules for this match perfectly.
     

    308pirate

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    It will be interesting to see how match directors try to interpret the rules for flashhiders vs.muzzle brakes, what rear tactical bags can look like, etc...
    Flash suppressors are legal in any NRA center-fire rifle sport and F class is no exception. The issue is not new since ARs have been the dominant rifle in NRA Service Rifle since the 1990s.

    I shot many a mid range prone match with my service rifle with sling and F classers on either side of me and no one ever had an issue. Wear long pants and brass won't be a problem.

    You can't ban ARs from F class matches any more than you can ban sling shooters. Many forget that F class is just a subset of NRA prone.

    What will be new is the butthurt from tactitards when they're told they can't use a brake.

    As far as the rear bag, they should have not tried to define what "tactical" is because it will be a shitshow of inconsistent interpretations from match to match.
     

    smoothy8500

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    I think the NRA is just trying to generate more interest in High power competition that is basically dying a slow death. F-class is doing ok, but the number of people shooting Midrange prone with Service Rifle or Match Rifle is getting smaller every year. They figure people like to shoot "tactical AR's" so let's entice them to shoot competitions with us and we can collect some fees.
     

    308pirate

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    Well, at least the rulebook says what "tactical" isn't.... Solid, adjustable and/or rigid rests of all kinds are prohibited. F-Class-style rear bags with “ears” are prohibited.
    That's actually the right way to deal with that issue. It can't be these few things, otherwise have at it.
     

    smoothy8500

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    I remember IDPA's infancy in the early 1990's they had a running list of "approved" holsters. Eventually, the list got so ridiculously long they dumped it to specify features that were/were not approved.
     

    Joel Danielson

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    This is going to be a shit show for MD's. Rule 3.3.3 where you get into specifics of trigger pull limits and barrel lengths will be a major PITA. Instead of most major matches where all you need is a scale, you will now have to have measuring devices for the above. You will also have to check every scope to ensure is doesn't have over 15 power.

    I don't envision there being more than a couple people that will be shooting in this category at most matches. It will be interesting to see how MD's handle awards and squading at matches. The NRA has made it very clear that this is not a version of f-class, so they can't be lumped in with them for awards.

    The MR-1 target will be used, which is the standard sling prone at 600 yards. If I am a MD, that means these guys will be squaded with the sling shooters so target frames don't have to be switched out in the pits. It won't matter as much if electronic targets are being used.
     

    milanuk

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  • Mar 23, 2002
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    I don't expect it'll be that big of a problem.

    When was the last time you saw a match director verifying *any* of the criteria in section 3 of the rule book?

    The answer is: probably never, not unless someone else voices a complaint. Up until that point, it's an 'on your honor' system.

    Once a complaint is raised, the MD can handle using the same tools they have on hand for the other classes: trigger weights or scale, for the Service Rifle guys, rifle scale for the F-class folks, tape measure for determining all the fun dimensions for various stock dimensions, etc. throughout section 3.

    Oh, wait. Most ranges (that I know of) don't even *have* that stuff on hand, if at all. :rolleyes:

    Enforcement will be more via 'peer pressure' than by match director decree, as per usual.

    The squadding won't be an issue for us (e-targets). Awards will be a bit of a PITA, as my understanding so far is that there would need to be a separate third match 'on paper' i.e. for admin purposes with the NRA - Midrange Prone, Midrange F-class, and Midrange AR Tactical.

    You're correct about the turnout, from what I've seen around here so far. Other areas say they have decent participation on a regular basis. Then again, we(I) have done little to promote the venue. I'm hoping we might pick up a few 'club' shooters that want to try their hand at 600 with their ARs. I half-ways expect to see someone show up with a 16" recce with an ACOG or LPVO and Mk262 clone ammo and give it a go. Should be interesting.... ;)
     
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    Joel Danielson

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    I don't expect it'll be that big of a problem.

    When was the last time you saw a match director verifying *any* of the criteria in section 3 of the rule book?
    For our state and regional matches, rifles & equipment are usually weighed before the match. I have never seen things like width of the forearm measured.
     

    milanuk

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  • Mar 23, 2002
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    For our state and regional matches, rifles & equipment are usually weighed before the match.
    Probably 95% of the times I've had my gun weighed have been at national (or international) events. State and regional matches... maybe at Missoula (Deep Creek), and then only probably because they shoot 1k BR there and have the mentality of checking/enforcing things like that already. WA, OR... nope. Not unless *I* bring the scale, and then I get a dirty look from the MD and it's made abundantly clear that it's "not official" - they don't want the hassle.

    Point is, the AR Tactical class has some unique rules - like F-class did, but with more 'fuzzy' stuff like the 'intent' clause. But unless the MD has a hard-on about it and is looking for a reason to actively exclude people, it's not going to be that big of a deal - the shooters will largely police themselves, as they always have. Most people will mend their ways by the next match if someone brings it up (depending on how big a dick that someone is about it); I've encountered vanishingly few cases of *intentional* rules violations. Nobody wants to get the 'stank' of cheating attached to their name - that takes a long damn time to go away. Usually it's someone didn't read the rules all the way, or misinterpreted them somehow - which is unfortunately not hard to do. Luckily most people are pretty forgiving about *that*.
     
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    smoothy8500

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    Again, go read the rules.
    That's funny....because we are talking about the rules. However, we're not talking about Service Rifle. Besides, "Leg matches" are EIC governed under the CMP rules-which don't recognize Tactical AR. Yes, the EIC matches I've attended always seem to get inspected with a fine-tooth comb (triggers, scope magnification, stocks, weight, etc).

    Edit: NineHotel's off-topic post disappeared I guess.
     
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