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Rifle Scopes Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

E

Eagle1*

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Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 7, 2006
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Ohio
I know each serves a different purpose, but I was wondering what the difference really is? I am trying to figure out which would serve me better. I will be going to a class soon that we will be able to go to Thunder Valley and it will be my first time being past 200 yards.

I am gettingready to buy my scope for my GAP AR10 and am trying to decide if I want/need mil/mil or moa/moa. Any help would greatly be appreciated. Thanks..
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

They both work the same and can be used for the same purposes. If possible try out each and see which one you prefer. If you don't have much experience with either go MIL/MIL. You will notice the majority of your fellow shooters and instructors will be using MIL's. It often makes things easier when people are spotting and calling out corrections for you.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

The main difference is that one system is based off of a unit of measure that's primarily used by we Americans, and that is also not based on a system of tenths. The other system is used more universally, and is ten based.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

ten based being mil/mil. I am not really familiar with either, that is the reason for the question/post. I am thinking mil/mil then..

I hear mil is not as accuarte as moa when you are trying to sight the rifle in at say 100 yards???
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

Call Thunder Valley and ask them.

Usually, if you have to ask, get mils. Moa has some advantages, but its mostly for those who have "always been using moa". Both work fine.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eagle1*</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ten based being mil/mil. I am not really familiar with either, that is the reason for the question/post. I am thinking mil/mil then..

I hear mil is not as accuarte as moa when you are trying to sight the rifle in at say 100 yards???</div></div>

you can't utilize the accuracy difference, it's .25 vs .36 and if you can shoot better than that, especially with a gas gun, you have no need to ask anyone questions.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

Mil and MOA are really used for the same purpose just a different unit of measure. Think thermometers, some are celcius some are farenheit, but they both measure temp. One is not easier or harder to use once you learn the system. If most of your shooting partners use MOA, then go moa. If you are getting some formal training, I would think they would more likely use mil, I would check with them.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

go to this link and he will explain moa and mill in different videos along with wind and stuff like that. very easy to understand what he is saying he's a natural teacher. i use moa because i am american and do all my measureing in american so thats the only reason. they are equally easy to use and work the same, like stated above just different unit of measure.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

Mils +

Milsinpennies.jpg


If can American can't figure this out, they need to find a new hobby... you are not thinking in anything you don't already do.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

When work gets tough and I need comic relief lately I just search for all posts by LL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mils +

Milsinpennies.jpg


If can American can't figure this out, they need to find a new hobby... you are not thinking in anything you don't already do. </div></div>
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

Once you switch to metric (meter, cm, mm etc), you will find it's quite easy to work with ten-based fractions (or thousandth). I switched my range finder to read meters. This is especially useful when targets are erected at random distance, not at 100yd, 200yd etc.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

MOA/MOA was an easy choice for me. Everything seems to be in MOA.

<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]When people speak of accuracy for their barrel, ammo, gun, whatever, they use MOA (1 MOA, sub-MOA, etc.), not MIL.[*]Rails with cant describe the cant in MOA (10MOA, 20MOA, 30MOA), not MIL.[*]Maximum elevation adjustment spec for scopes is typically listed in MOA, not MIL, <span style="font-style: italic">even for MIL/MIL scopes</span>![*]Many MIL scopes then (stupidly) use MOA knobs instead of MIL knobs (although this is being fixed lately).[*]When ranging, I find it easier to use inches than yards (or meters). The steel targets I use, and at competitions, are measured in inches, for example.[*]It is easier for me to sight in because sight-in targets have 1-inch squares.[*]It is easier for me to adjust when my spotters call shots in inches.[*]My shooting buddies use MOA.[*]I am used to thinking of distances in 100 yard increments.[/list]
It just seems to me like EVERYTHING is in MOA and inches, at least here in the USA.

Let's use an example. When figuring out how much cant I need in a scope base. With an MOA scope, that has max elevation spec listed in MOA, a ballistic calc that measures drop in inches, and bases with cants listed as MOA, it's easy as pie. If you sprinkle some MIL into that example, some conversions are required.

Now, that being said, and so I don't look like an MOA cheerleader, there are some drawbacks too:
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]It seems to me that more scopes are available in MIL/MIL than MOA/MOA, so you'll have a better selection with MIL.[*]It seems to me that even when there are both MIL and MOA scopes available within a single line of scopes, there are more MIL reticle choices than MOA reticle choices. I've seen this with Nightforce, US Optics, and Vortex at a minimum.[*]More shooters seem to use MIL, so if you hook up with some random spotter, he probably has MIL.[*]Sometimes "MOA" is really MOA and sometimes it is IPHY. At longer ranges, or for precision work, it is an important difference.[/list]
MOA suits my needs very well. As I said, it appears to be an MOA world. However, I do not hunt nor do I participate in 2-way shooting ranges, so perhaps the needs there are quite a bit different than mine.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

EVERYTHING is changing though.
Especially in the world of Long Range shooting
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bedlam</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
[*]When ranging, I find it easier to use inches than yards (or meters). The steel targets I use, and at competitions, are measured in inches, for example.
[*]I am used to thinking of distances in 100 yard increments.
[/list]</div></div>

What does this have to do with MOA vs milrad?
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bedlam</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MOA/MOA was an easy choice for me. Everything seems to be in MOA.

<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]When people speak of accuracy for their barrel, ammo, gun, whatever, they use MOA (1 MOA, sub-MOA, etc.), not MIL.[*]Rails with cant describe the cant in MOA (10MOA, 20MOA, 30MOA), not MIL.[*]Maximum elevation adjustment spec for scopes is typically listed in MOA, not MIL, <span style="font-style: italic">even for MIL/MIL scopes</span>![*]Many MIL scopes then (stupidly) use MOA knobs instead of MIL knobs (although this is being fixed lately).[*]When ranging, I find it easier to use inches than yards (or meters). The steel targets I use, and at competitions, are measured in inches, for example.[*]It is easier for me to sight in because sight-in targets have 1-inch squares.[*]It is easier for me to adjust when my spotters call shots in inches.[*]My shooting buddies use MOA.[*]I am used to thinking of distances in 100 yard increments.[/list]
It just seems to me like EVERYTHING is in MOA and inches, at least here in the USA.

Let's use an example. When figuring out how much cant I need in a scope base. With an MOA scope, that has max elevation spec listed in MOA, a ballistic calc that measures drop in inches, and bases with cants listed as MOA, it's easy as pie. If you sprinkle some MIL into that example, some conversions are required.

Now, that being said, and so I don't look like an MOA cheerleader, there are some drawbacks too:
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]It seems to me that more scopes are available in MIL/MIL than MOA/MOA, so you'll have a better selection with MIL.[*]It seems to me that even when there are both MIL and MOA scopes available within a single line of scopes, there are more MIL reticle choices than MOA reticle choices. I've seen this with Nightforce, US Optics, and Vortex at a minimum.[*]More shooters seem to use MIL, so if you hook up with some random spotter, he probably has MIL.[*]Sometimes "MOA" is really MOA and sometimes it is IPHY. At longer ranges, or for precision work, it is an important difference.[/list]
MOA suits my needs very well. As I said, it appears to be an MOA world. However, I do not hunt nor do I participate in 2-way shooting ranges, so perhaps the needs there are quite a bit different than mine.</div></div>

The majority of this is just plain wrong, or best case, poorly thought out...

It's a bunch of personal rationalization that just doesn't' jive with the realities of actual shooting.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The majority of this is just plain wrong, or best case, poorly thought out...

It's a bunch of personal rationalization that just doesn't' jive with the realities of actual shooting.</div></div>

Fair enough, you're the expert and I'm a novice.

I fell into MOA (IPHY actually) by accident when I bought a used US Optics as my first scope. But I'm happy with all the coincidences that work for me, so don't rain on my parade.
smile.gif

 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

I am looking at this scope
http://www.leupold.com/tactical/products...m1-front-focal/
and am wondering if any of you can comment on this for me. I need to know if the turrets match the recticle since it is moa turrets. Will the recticle be in mils or moa?

The same model scope in the M5 designation has 1/10 mil turrets to match the tmr recticle but I need to know if this M1 scope is moa/moa or moa/mil? Thanks.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">M1 windage and elevation adjustment dials with audible, tactile ¼-MOA clicks.</div></div>

"mil"dots are mil, so is the TMR.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

I think it says it right there in the list (MIL/MOA):

Available with the Mil Dot or Tactical Milling Reticle® (TMR®).

M1 windage and elevation adjustment dials with audible, tactile ¼-MOA clicks.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

is it not better to have mil/mil or moa/moa turrets and recticles that match?
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eagle1*</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is it not better to have mil/mil or moa/moa turrtes and recticles that match? </div></div>

Yes, and therefore the scope you selected would only be able to match if you if you get .1milrad knobs on the M5 version. There is no MOA based reticle available.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

Match the turrets to the reticle...

The TMR is an excellent reticle and the M5 knobs are 1/10th mils, that is what you want... .1 mrad.

if you haven't' used either much, I recommend using Mils, if you have a lot of data in MOA then you can use that... but starting out and wanting to learn one system effectively I would recommend mils.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Match the turrets to the reticle...

The TMR is an excellent reticle and the M5 knobs are 1/10th mils, that is what you want... .1 mrad.

if you haven't' used either much, I recommend using Mils, if you have a lot of data in MOA then you can use that... but starting out and wanting to learn one system effectively I would recommend mils. </div></div>

thanks, this makes sense now!
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

I have the same dilema as the OP, just got into to shooting long distance. It seems most are headed the mil-mil direction, I am simply used to the moa from setting up hunting scopes.

Please just state the pros and cons of each as most understand them.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mavrickarcher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have the same dilema as the OP, just got into to shooting long distance. It seems most are headed the mil-mil direction, I am simply used to the moa from setting up hunting scopes.

Please just state the pros and cons of each as most understand them.</div></div>

Maverick,...read up. Mil/Mil is a no maths no effort solution. Easy to use and understand from the get go.Simply look at the ret and dial the correction without any mental calculation into inches/feet/yards.Same appies irrespective of any distance.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

It seems like the industry standard is moving toward Mil/Mil. I find it easier, having switched from MOA.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Emouse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Simply look at the ret and dial the correction without any mental calculation into inches/feet/yards.Same appies irrespective of any distance.</div></div>

Why wouldn't the same apply to MOA/MOA? Because that's what I do too.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

I have both Mil and MOA scopes. I think both are equally easy to use. I don't have any problem going from one to the other.. If I had to pick one I would go with the MIL.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

Emouse and johnsta thanks for the comments, from reding on here it seems mil is the way most are going at this time.
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

There is no one that is "better".

The main things when deciding between the MIL system or MOA system are:

(1) that the reticle and turret adjustments match. Mil based reticle/mil turret adj.

(2) what your spotter or buddies are using. Having a call in MRad to a shooter with 1/4 MOA click values just plain sucks. Lol

(3) MIL system is easier to learn fundamentaly speaking. (this is my opinion)
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

MOA on MOA will get the job done it is better the MOA turrets with MIL RET. I prefer MILs all the way...

Why? IN SHORT:
-Smaller #'s (308 round to 500yds ruffly 3.3mils 12moa on some turrets this is one REV).
-Faster adjustment to target. (for tactical shooting I do not need to adjust a 1/4moa of the target.)
-Very think is in 0.1, 1, 10, 100, 1000 (hope this is clear)



Mike @ CST
 
Re: Mil/Mil or Moa/Moa for scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bedlam</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MOA/MOA was an easy choice for me. Everything seems to be in MOA.

<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]When people speak of accuracy for their barrel, ammo, gun, whatever, they use MOA (1 MOA, sub-MOA, etc.), not MIL.[*]Rails with cant describe the cant in MOA (10MOA, 20MOA, 30MOA), not MIL.[*]Maximum elevation adjustment spec for scopes is typically listed in MOA, not MIL, <span style="font-style: italic">even for MIL/MIL scopes</span>![*]Many MIL scopes then (stupidly) use MOA knobs instead of MIL knobs (although this is being fixed lately).[*]When ranging, I find it easier to use inches than yards (or meters). The steel targets I use, and at competitions, are measured in inches, for example.[*]It is easier for me to sight in because sight-in targets have 1-inch squares.[*]It is easier for me to adjust when my spotters call shots in inches.[*]My shooting buddies use MOA.[*]I am used to thinking of distances in 100 yard increments.[/list]
It just seems to me like EVERYTHING is in MOA and inches, at least here in the USA.

Let's use an example. When figuring out how much cant I need in a scope base. With an MOA scope, that has max elevation spec listed in MOA, a ballistic calc that measures drop in inches, and bases with cants listed as MOA, it's easy as pie. If you sprinkle some MIL into that example, some conversions are required.

Now, that being said, and so I don't look like an MOA cheerleader, there are some drawbacks too:
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]It seems to me that more scopes are available in MIL/MIL than MOA/MOA, so you'll have a better selection with MIL.[*]It seems to me that even when there are both MIL and MOA scopes available within a single line of scopes, there are more MIL reticle choices than MOA reticle choices. I've seen this with Nightforce, US Optics, and Vortex at a minimum.[*]More shooters seem to use MIL, so if you hook up with some random spotter, he probably has MIL.[*]Sometimes "MOA" is really MOA and sometimes it is IPHY. At longer ranges, or for precision work, it is an important difference.[/list]
MOA suits my needs very well. As I said, it appears to be an MOA world. However, I do not hunt nor do I participate in 2-way shooting ranges, so perhaps the needs there are quite a bit different than mine.</div></div>

I like it! lol

The guys and I shoot MOA/MOA and have SMOA reticles in the USO Field Spotters. It works really well for us. Our shooting consists of tactical precision matches here in the south west.
 
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