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Rifle Scopes Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

jonaddis84

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Jan 27, 2009
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I only ever hear people talking about having mil adjustments and mil reticles, never moa adjustments and an moa reticle. Why is this?

Ive never spent the time to learn the milradian system yet, so there may be something that I dont know about that makes it better. But the way I look at it MOA is extremely easy and intuitive as long as you have a matching reticle.

Id just like to have someone explain to me if they can why I should learn and switch to mils for my Viper PST. Thanks!
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

It realy does not matter what system you learn but i think you must have the reticle the same as the turrets so Mill/Mill and MOA/MOA. but mill is realy easy once you learn it 10 cm is a mill at 100 m so it is 1000th the distance it works for any distance one foot is 1 mill at 1000 feet it is angular and works out matching the metric system so at 100 metres 1 click ( that is a tenth of a mill) is 1 centremetre one mill 10 clicks is 10cm.

Hope that helps but when you are working out your mill dots as 3.6 MOA per space it makes for harder maths if you are both winding and holding off. If your reticle is MOA spacings you can add the spacings to the amount on your MOA turret and go for it. The same holds true for Mill/Mill.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

I guess its been awhile since Ive read through the optics forums, I apologize that there are probably other similar topics I dont have the search perfected on this forum yet.

So it sounds like for the mil system to be easier you have to make the switch to measuring in meters for sure then right?
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

No, mils work with anything, yards, miles, meters, - it's just 1/1000th of the distance. It's why at 100 yards a mil = 3.6" because there are 36000 inches in a 1000 yards.

A mil is a mil, it doesn't matter if you are at 567 yards, or 833 meters the answer is the same.

The problem with any system is trying to put a linear value to it, that is what crowds the issue and causes confusion. It's why MOA was rounded so people would have a linear value they were comfortable with, because they weren't using an MOA reticle to remove the need for the linear discussion.

Each system will have a pro & con, I happen to think there is far less negatives with mils than MOA but that is my personal opinion on the subject.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

A moa is a moa, it doesn't matter if you are at 567 yards, or 833 meters the answer is the same.

The problem is that folks tried putting a linear value to moa, and created the "shooters moa" / smoa / iphy realm of thinking. While close to moa, it is not moa. A moa is still a moa...

-pd
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ptd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A moa is a moa, it doesn't matter if you are at 567 yards, or 833 meters the answer is the same.

The problem is that folks tried putting a linear value to moa, and created the "shooters moa" / smoa / iphy realm of thinking. While close to moa, it is not moa. A moa is still a moa...

-pd
</div></div>

That would be true but many scope companies tell you it is an MOA but really it's IPHY, and the fact no two MOA scopes are the same, even from the same manufacturer it requires a lot more thought to ensure you know what you have.

Reticles all subtend different amounts and there is too much variation between turrets.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

I must admit I'm not entirely convinced I see the advantage of Mil adjustments over MOA adjustments or vice verca. If your scope is FFP then surely the advantage is equal, in that if you have matched reticules and adjustments you can adjust just as quickly with either Mil or MOA systems. And likewise you're at the same disadvantage if your scope is SFP and not set at the correct power to allow you to precisely adjust according to your reticule's hashes, you're going to have to guestimate your adjustments for either system. Please somebody step in if I have completely lost the plot on this.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

mil/mil vs moa/moa is all a matter of personal preference, that's all. I have scopes with both, and don't really prefer one over the other. The advantage of having matching turrets and reticles is that you can correct a spotted miss without doing any math, unlike the traditional mil reticle/moa turret setup.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

I would take a MOA/MOA scope over a mismatched one. The math compared to mils (assuming that the reticle AND turrets are BOTH not IPHY):

18" * 100/4.5 MOA = 1800/4.5 = 400 yards

18"/36" * 1000 = 500/1.25 mils = 400 yards
(or 18" * 27.78)
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azimutha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would take a MOA/MOA scope over a mismatched one. The math compared to mils (assuming that the reticle AND turrets are BOTH not IPHY):

18" * 100/4.5 MOA = 1800/4.5 = 400 yards

18"/36" * 1000 = 500/1.25 mils = 400 yards
(or 18" * 27.78) </div></div>

Can you explain the math to me? If you're shooting a SFP reticule don't you have to set your scope on a specific power setting to ensure the reticule is at the right scale.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azimutha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would take a MOA/MOA scope over a mismatched one. The math compared to mils (assuming that the reticle AND turrets are BOTH not IPHY):

18" * 100/4.5 MOA = 1800/4.5 = 400 yards

18"/36" * 1000 = 500/1.25 mils = 400 yards
(or 18" * 27.78) </div></div>

Can you explain the math to me? If you're shooting a SFP reticule don't you have to set your scope on a specific power setting to ensure the reticule is at the right scale. </div></div>

SFP scopes typically range at the max power, although there are exceptions such as the 8-32 and 12-42 NXS. The math up top is assuming you are shooting at an 18" target. For an MOA reticle, you take the size in inches, multiply by 100 (actually 95.5, but you can round to 100 for the most part unless you are shooting super long distance), then divide by the size of the target perceived by your reticle in MOA. The bottom math is taking that same 18" and multiplying by the conversion factor of 27.778. You then divide by how many mils the target is taking up in your reticle. The 27.778 derivation means that at 27.778 yds, a 1 inch target is 1 mil in your reticle. So 27.778 x 3.6 inches = 100 yds. I posted a much more comprehensive explanation a while back. You can figure out all the numbers with some simple geometry and trig.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

I went MOA/MOA with a Razor EBR-1 reticle. I don't think it really matters mil/mil or MOA/MOA it is the same procedures just different numbers in the equation instead of 27.78 it is 95.5 as in inches x 95.5/MOA - works for me. When the PST's finally come out I am going to get another EBR-1 reticle for my PST.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

95.5 is correct. I'm just going to stick with mils. Got to thinking in IPHY for some reason. I don't even know if anyone makes a scope that has both turrets and a reticle in IPHY.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

Early on, I mistakenly bought scopes with Mil Dots and MOA knobs. I didn't know it was a mistake until I actually used a mil/mil scope. Now the mismatch bugs the crap out of me. I have one NF MLR/MOA and another MLR/Mil. The second one will be on its way back to NF for conversion to mil and zero stop soon.
As far as having some scopes in Mil/Mil and some in MOA/MOA, I can easily switch back and forth on them.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azimutha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would take a MOA/MOA scope over a mismatched one. The math compared to mils (assuming that the reticle AND turrets are BOTH not IPHY):

18" * 100/4.5 MOA = 1800/4.5 = 400 yards

18"/36" * 1000 = 500/1.25 mils = 400 yards
(or 18" * 27.78) </div></div>

Of course if you combine using Mils with meters, the maths gets even easier

(Size of Target in meters / Mils) x 1000 = Distance in M

So if a target you know to be .5 of a meter tall appears to subtend 1.25 Mils, the calculation would be

(.5/1.25 ) x 1000= 400m
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

If you can think in meters and cm, then yes, the mil/mil setup will be faster. But a lot of guys get caught up thinking that mils are metric. It seems that way, but the only reason why is because the metric system is based upon moving in multiples of 10, or simply moving the decimal place over. Mils are the same concept. But if you are locked into estimating target size in inches, and ranging in yards like me, 27.778 is not that hard to plug into a calculator.

But for all intensive purposes, how many of you guys are actually using your reticle to range every time anyways? I don't. I just do it for fun, and most of the time I am shooting at known distances anyway. I would much rather laze a target rather than run the chance of screwing up my read and wasting a shot.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

If you are thinking math you've already lost, as well if you're expounding the merits of milling ease, it's already too late.

It is a personal preference, but I will say the majority who come bearing tales of MOA use, as soon as you take the situation out of their hands many fall apart. When training new shooters, mils gets them up and running much faster much sooner and a lot more effective downrange.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

I like MIL/MIL what I use on my nightforce. 10 Mils per rev compared to 20MOA per rev. greater amount of travel usually per rev. If you have trouble thinking in metric or converting it don't. Use the rectile to make adjustments.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TimResin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have trouble thinking in metric or converting it don't. Use the rectile to make adjustments. </div></div>

But only if your scope is FFP, or if it's SFP set at the right power.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flyingbullseye</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What does the metric system have to do with any of this?

Flyingbullseye </div></div>

Mil's and Metric are both decimal systems that just fit together, "hand in glove" so to speak...There's nothing to stop a person working in MOA and Metric or Mil and Imperial, but Mil and Metric makes the most sense..
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

Mils are just a ratio of 1 to 1000. It's 1 meter at 1000 meters (kilometer) or 1 yard at 1000 yards. The only reason people even talk metric is because 1 mil at 100 meters or yards is an odd number in inches and will be 10cm at 100 meters. The only advantage of the metric system in general is it's divisibility by 10, making some of the math easier. But, only some. As with anything else, one can select an example to make it look easy or the "numbers come out even." For example, 2 mils at 1000 yards represent? A 6 foot tall man. How neat. Of course, 1 mil at 100 yards is 3.6 inches, hardly something easy if multiplying anything but a carefully selected example. The most essential aspect of the system is ranging. One can memorize or construct on a card a bullet drop table in either metric or inch.

That said, if you are younger, go with mils and metric. That's the way everything is going, for better or for worse: it is what it is. How tall are you in metric? Quickly!!! There's the reason I use MOA. Yes, one can say I'm an old fart and set in my ways. Don't know if I'm set in my ways but I do feel I should benefit from my experience. If you were to point at some object and ask the size - the first component of the ranging calculation - I would answer in inches. Grew up with it, got used to it. I lived in Europe for a while and know metric and can hold up my thumb and forefinger to show you if you asked me to show 10cm. But, I will instinctively think in inches. So, MOA works for me. If you can answer the question, quickly, instinctively and under stress how tall something is in metric, you are ahead with mils solely because of the divisibility by 10.

BTW, I'm 188cm tall - don't think I'd want to deal with that calculation in my head and, I'm of a generation who memorized multiplication tables and learned to figure in our heads - no pocket calculators were even thought of when I was a youngster in school.

To answer simply the originally posted question: consistency is the key to everything.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Early on, I mistakenly bought scopes with Mil Dots and MOA knobs. I didn't know it was a mistake until I actually used a mil/mil scope. Now the mismatch bugs the crap out of me. I have one NF MLR/MOA and another MLR/Mil. The second one will be on its way back to NF for conversion to mil and zero stop soon.</div></div>Just sent mine back for the same reason.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TimResin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like MIL/MIL what I use on my nightforce. 10 Mils per rev compared to 20MOA per rev.</div></div>That must be for the high speed turrets. I'm expecting my conversion to come back with 5 or 6 mils/turn...can't seem to find a definitive answer and I forgot to ask Ken @ NF. I really don't care which, as long as they match the reticle. Just an FYI that compact models (converted or new) probably won't have high-speed as an option. How would they accomodate the size of the turret body and still keep the scope compact?
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

I never understood why anyone ever sold moa/moa scopes. Or Mil/MOA. Or MOA anything.

Why not just say "this scope adjusts in increments of 1/1000th of the distance to the target, whatever that may be."
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azimutha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">95.5 is correct. I'm just going to stick with mils. Got to thinking in IPHY for some reason. I don't even know if anyone makes a scope that has both turrets and a reticle in IPHY.</div></div>

Pretty sure USO does; that's the only manufacturer I can think of, though...
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

Leupold makes a reticle in Mils with turrets that adjust in IPHY that are marked 1/4 MOA.
confused.gif
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Leupold makes a reticle in Mils with turrets that adjust in IPHY that are marked 1/4 MOA.
confused.gif
</div></div>

NightForce do as well.

I think too much is being made of the need for Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA scopes. With mismatched reticlules and turrets you can still range targets and adjust fire. Matched reticules and turrets really only come into their own with FFP scopes.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...

I think too much is being made of the need for Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA scopes. With mismatched reticlules and turrets you can still range targets and adjust fire. Matched reticules and turrets really only come into their own with FFP scopes. </div></div>

Say what? I think you are a bit confused on the matter.

-pd
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rjroberts</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mils are just a ratio of 1 to 1000. It's 1 meter at 1000 meters (kilometer) or 1 yard at 1000 yards. The only reason people even talk metric is because 1 mil at 100 meters or yards is an odd number in inches and will be 10cm at 100 meters. The only advantage of the metric system in general is it's divisibility by 10, making some of the math easier. But, only some. As with anything else, one can select an example to make it look easy or the "numbers come out even." For example, 2 mils at 1000 yards represent? A 6 foot tall man. How neat. Of course, 1 mil at 100 yards is 3.6 inches, hardly something easy if multiplying anything but a carefully selected example. The most essential aspect of the system is ranging. One can memorize or construct on a card a bullet drop table in either metric or inch.

That said, if you are younger, go with mils and metric. That's the way everything is going, for better or for worse: it is what it is. How tall are you in metric? Quickly!!! There's the reason I use MOA. Yes, one can say I'm an old fart and set in my ways. Don't know if I'm set in my ways but I do feel I should benefit from my experience. If you were to point at some object and ask the size - the first component of the ranging calculation - I would answer in inches. Grew up with it, got used to it. I lived in Europe for a while and know metric and can hold up my thumb and forefinger to show you if you asked me to show 10cm. But, I will instinctively think in inches. So, MOA works for me. If you can answer the question, quickly, instinctively and under stress how tall something is in metric, you are ahead with mils solely because of the divisibility by 10.

BTW, I'm 188cm tall - don't think I'd want to deal with that calculation in my head and, I'm of a generation who memorized multiplication tables and learned to figure in our heads - no pocket calculators were even thought of when I was a youngster in school.

To answer simply the originally posted question: consistency is the key to everything. </div></div>
I like the way you put this rj, i grew up the same way learning inches, i know many here think mils is the way to go and everyone has their own opinion, me i say metric... hell with it, i think most of us learned inches when growing up, its been the US standard, inches, lbs...etc, ask me what i bench...lbs i don't answer in kilos, seems like our means of measurement are adjusting to the worlds, like i said everyone has their opinions, maybe someday i will look into a metric scale, i suppose its good to know both, my MOA turrets and reticles are good enough for who its for, and when i tell people my rifle shoots sub MOA, they seem to understand me better than telling them it shoots sub mil.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ptd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...

I think too much is being made of the need for Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA scopes. With mismatched reticlules and turrets you can still range targets and adjust fire. Matched reticules and turrets really only come into their own with FFP scopes. </div></div>

Say what? I think you are a bit confused on the matter.

-pd </div></div>

I have a SFP mil reticule scope with moa turrets. I can easily range targets with the reticule (at the right power setting) and I know at that setting each hash mark on the reticule is 1 mil or 3.4 MOA. If I'm 2 mils high according to my reticule I know I need to adjust 6.8 MOA (or 27 clicks) - surely it's just a mental calculation. If I was running a mil adjustment scope it would be 20 clicks without the mental calculation. Tell me if I am wrong.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

Sure, you can do that if want to sit there and think about it... But throwing out a blanket statement saying/implying matched reticle/turrets are not really needed in sfp application and only '<span style="font-style: italic">come into their own</span>' with ffp is a bit silly.

-pd
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ptd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sure, you can do that if want to sit there and think about it... But throwing out a blanket statement saying/implying matched reticle/turrets are not really needed in sfp application and only '<span style="font-style: italic">come into their own</span>' with ffp is a bit silly.

-pd
</div></div>

In order for me to be able to mil correctly with my scope I have to set my scope at 22 power which is hardly convenient and sometimes simply not practical. While the reticule's hash marks offer some guidance with SFP scopes you could argue that they are not worth using for precise fire adjustment if you're not set at the correct power. FFP scopes are obviously the way to go if you are to use mil or MOA reticules to the full potential.
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sititunga1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Leupold makes a reticle in Mils with turrets that adjust in IPHY that are marked 1/4 MOA.
confused.gif
</div></div>NightForce do as well.</div></div>All the 1/4 MOA Nightforce scopes I have tested have adjusted in MOA. Have you seen a NF that is marked 1/4 MOA but adjusts in IPHY?
 
Re: Mil/Mil vs Moa/Moa

I didnt disappear, Ive been reading everything taking notes, thanks for all the replies. Its making it a harder and harder decision though, mils makes more sense once you learn it, the only thing holding me back is the guys I shoot with have all MOA setups so it would be easier to relay misses to them.