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Rifle Scopes Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

wisam

Private
Minuteman
Jan 4, 2011
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0
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(Disclaimer) This is not the standard which is better question that has been beat to death already. I’ve done a search and I’ve read most of the MIL vs. MOA discussions. What I’m wondering is how many people learned the MOA system and switched to MIL. How long did you use the MOA system before you made the switch and do which system do you prefer. . Again, I’ve already done a search so no need to mention the merits of one system or the other unless it’s something that hasn’t been discussed yet.

I’ve been shooting all my life using the MOA system, and I am considering making the switch to Mil. I’m just wondering if after the initial learning curve, I’ll find the MIL system easier.
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

I do.

Used MOA all my life til this past year when I switched to MIL...it's a no brainer...goto MIL

 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

I started on mixed scopes - MOA adjustments and mil reticles.

Eventually I switched to mil/mil, which was a lot easier.

My advice is pick the reticle you like, whether MOA or mil, and get a scope with adjustments to match.

It's not easier to learn or use either one. They're just different measurements of angle.
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

Im aussie and we think in CM, meters, 10 not 12, 1 not 2.54 etc etc...

so for me mil is fairly straight forward. Im cluey with my math as well so i dont find MOA all that hard either. Being consistent between the two and using units that work with each system is the key... mixing it up just makes things hard
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

if you have a matching reticle and turret combo you really dont have to retrain yourself, the thought process is the same and theyre really the exact some concept just different measurements. MOA is based off of degrees and the ideal that there are 360 degrees in an angle where as MIL is based off of the idea that a circle is made up of 2 pi. However, both of them work on the idea that a change of a certain angle will make an increasingly large distance the farther away the target is. They simply use different ways of measuring that angle. When it gets tricky is if you used mixed scopes with MIL reticle and MOA turrets (or potentially vice versa). I have and do use both system on different rifles and while I do prefer MIL over MOA it is very easy to transition. Its like understanding how to measure things in inches and centimeters with a ruler.
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

however, many americans do like MOA because as vman said, while many other countries think in the metric system (MILS is based off metric), america uses its own system with inches. personally i do agree with vman though, even being american, i find the metric system which usually works out in factors of 10 to be more straightforward and effective for this particular use
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How did you retrain yourself to think in MIL?</div></div>

You don't have to think much. Convert your dope to mils - just divide the MOA by 3.438, then round it to the nearest 0.1 mil.

Learn to call the wind in mils. Other than that, you have a handy optical reference for mils in your scope reticle.
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

(MILS is based off metric)

Oh, goody! I haven't had a chance to paste this up for quite a while.

<begin standard screed>

There are no such things as "metric" scopes, and there is nothing "metric" about mils.

Milliradians, MOA and IPHY (inches per hundred yards) are measurements of <span style="font-weight: bold">angle</span> which have <span style="font-weight: bold">nothing</span> whatsoever to do with any system of linear measure.

There are two times Pi radians in a circle, and a milliradian is simply one-thousands of a radian.

One milliradian is an angle which subtends an arc whose length is 1/1000th of the distance from the vertex.

In other words, one milliradian subtends an arc whose length is:
1 yard at 1000 yards.
1 meter at 1000 meters.
1 mile at 1000 miles.
1 league at 1000 leagues.
1 fathom at 1000 fathoms.
1 inch at 1000 inches.
1 foot at 1000 feet.
1 lightyear at 1000 lightyears.
1 attoparsec at 1000 attoparsecs.
3.6 inches at 3600 inches (100 yards).

It has nothing to do with any English or Metric system of linear measure.
<end standard screed>
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

well radians are a measurement in the metric system and so is a milliradian. MOA simply deals with inches and degrees which are more familiar to americans. thats all i was saying
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

I recognize that its not linear and i think i explained that in my post but that does not mean it does not belong to the metric system. Its a metric angular measurement. The exact same thing as moa except dealing in the metric system which tends to simplify things
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

cooper, sorry, you are wrong on everything. You will learn to not question Lindy.

radians are not metric, they are standard imperial.

There are no inches in MOA (Degrees, Minutes and Seconds)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cooper623</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well radians are a measurement in the metric system and so is a milliradian. MOA simply deals with inches and degrees which are more familiar to americans. thats all i was saying
</div></div>
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

See, I think what fucks me up the most is I can look at a shot at 100 yards through my optic and say "that's about 3 inches high".

If I wanted to adjust on a mil/mil scope, I'd have to first guess in inches and convert 3" to .9 mils.

And lets say I wanted to reverse it and was shooting at 1000 yards and adjusted my scope .7 mil up. I'd have to first convert that to inches so I can visualize what .7 mil looks like at that range. Not even sure what the answer is for that one...

Or should I just say to hell with it and buy a mil/mil scope and just shoot with it to learn it that way? I don't own one yet and am trying to learn mils before blowing a ton a scope.
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

oh, and the switch is super easy. just convert all your dope and stop thinking in linear measurements, you dont need them anyway.

I shot MOA for decades and switched to mils a few years ago. No problem.
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

You are overthinking it. You have a ruler right in from of your eye. Dont try to guess how high it is, look through your reticle and read it, exactly...done, easy.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">See, I think what fucks me up the most is I can look at a shot at 100 yards through my optic and say "that's about 3 inches high".

If I wanted to adjust on a mil/mil scope, I'd have to first guess in inches and convert 3" to .9 mils.

And lets say I wanted to reverse it and was shooting at 1000 yards and adjusted my scope .7 mil up. I'd have to first convert that to inches so I can visualize what .7 mil looks like at that range. Not even sure what the answer is for that one...

Or should I just say to hell with it and buy a mil/mil scope and just shoot with it to learn it that way? I don't own one yet and am trying to learn mils before blowing a ton a scope. </div></div>
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

I am sorry you are right, radians are the SI unit, not metric. and i should have clarified that MOA is not inches however it is 1.047....." per hundred yards and therefore is very closely estimated to an inch.
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are overthinking it. You have a ruler right in from of your eye. Dont try to guess how high it is, look through your reticle and read it, exactly...done, easy.
</div></div>


I'm such a dumbass. You ever have somebody tell you something, like the answer to a problem, and you just smack your head and say "duh, why didn't I think of that??".

You're right, I am over-thinking it. I was just trying to learn the mil conversions forgetting that I would have a ruler. LOL
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are overthinking it. You have a ruler right in from of your eye. Dont try to guess how high it is, look through your reticle and read it, exactly...done, easy.</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">BINGO!!!</span> We have a winner!
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are overthinking it. You have a ruler right in from of your eye. Dont try to guess how high it is, look through your reticle and read it, exactly...done, easy.</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">BINGO!!!</span> We have a winner!
</div></div>

laugh.gif
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"duh, why didn't I think of that??"</div></div>

I guess sometimes it takes twice - because above I wrote:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Other than that, you have a handy optical reference for mils in your scope reticle.</div></div>

Glad you got the idea, whatever it took!
laugh.gif
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

While we're on this subject, is there any good reads on using the mil system? I use a mil/moa right now and I will be picking up a mil/mil as soon as Scott gets back from shot. I understand ranging but I don't know anything about elevation in mils.
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

Excellent topic. I was recently rolling this around in my head being used to MOA and calling hits in MOA. Ive wondered what the learning curve would be "unlearning" mil/MOA and going to mil/mil.
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat M</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like the leagues & fathoms idea - you guys at SHOT should talk to the scope makers and push it.

And a league based rangefinder </div></div>

Dont forget the "rod" and "cubit"!
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

Alright, so I have a ruler right in front of me (the reticle). Now, in order for that to be accurate, I need to be focused on 10x? And is this where we begin the FFP/SFP argument?

My head would like to explode, brb...

Like many, I am sure I am over-thinking this (as that is my nature).
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

Well, fine then...I will hang up my hat and just relearn.

I am looking heavily at the 2.5-10 Viper PST for my 300wm. Going to be an Elk/Deer gun (we grow em big here) and I am likely going to be taking shots at to more that 600 on deer, 400 (pushing 500) on elk.
This one
Enough scope for my plans?

[/end hijack]
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

wisam,

Maybe this will help. Several items you probably need to know to start with:

1) When Lindy responds to a thread - PAY ATTENTION

2) No matter what the variation of the inquiry, mil vs MOA will always generate a lot of [often heated] debate.

3) Everyone has their own preference of mil or MOA systems and will likely defend that choice to the death in many cases (LOL).

After reading thread after thread on this topic, my take is this. I think the problem/dilemna for many in the mils vs MOA debate stems in part from thinking in terms of distance. Specifically, the arc length subtended by an angle at some distance from the shooter, for example, group spread at 100 yd. Or how many inches will this many clicks on my scope turret move the point of impact at 500 yd. It doesn't matter what system you're talking about, it seems like the human brain just naturally wants to think of one MOA, for example, as 1.0472 inches at 100 yds. In other words, the brain has automatically converted an angular measurement to a distance measurement (1.0472" at 100 yd) and then thinks of one MOA as 1.0472" (or some multiple of that) from that point on.

If you can get away from that and think in terms that mils and MOA are both angular measurements (angles), you will realize that arc length at a specified distance doesn't matter. It is what it is, and is proportional to whichever angular measurement you're using. Mils and MOA both do the same thing, they're just a different angle, or angular fraction of a circle (radians or degrees, take your pick). So if you think of mils and MOA as simply angles, you'll realize that you don't have to retrain your brain to go from one to the other at all. It's those who think of mils or MOA in terms of the arc length they subtend at some specified distance that run into trouble because then they have to deal with conversion factors that needlessly complicate things.

The point to all this is that as long as your reticle and turrets utilize the same system, there is no conversion necessary for most things. For example, you aim for a target, put a hole in the paper, and use your reticle to tell you how many dots or hashmarks your shot was off from your point of aim in elevation and windage (high or low, left or right). As long as the dots or hashmarks use the same system as the adjustment turrets, it doesn't matter if it's mils or MOA, you dial the necessary correction in with your turrets and shoot again and hopefully, the point of aim and point of impact will be the same. Obviously there can be more to it than just that, but if you start by thinking of whichever system you choose, mils or MOA, as an angle, rather than an arc length at some specified distance, everything will fall into place.
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you think

Not trying to thread hijack.

gstaylorg, I have a SS10x on my 308, it is mildot ret, and moa turrets. I would love to have a scope that is mil/mil, or moa/moa. I will be willing to spend up to $600 on a scope with matching turrets, any that you or another member would like to recommend?
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you thi

All the scopes I have are Nightforce mil/mil, ZS, MLR reticle versions in different mag ranges, which fall in the 2K price range. So, I'm really not the person to be asking unless you're thinking about NF scopes. Many others here can give you their take on a variety of scopes from different manufacturers based on personal experience much better than I can.

Having said that, because you know your upper price range and you know that you want matching reticle and turrets, that's a great start. So the next thing is to decide what type of shooting you will most likely be doing with it (ie. paper punching, steel targets, hunting, competition, etc.), and let that be your guide to see what falls in your price range. You could start by looking at an Optics Vendor online website such as Optics Planet, which will let you narrow down scopes by price range, and will give you detailed info on the different scopes so that you can compare side by side. If you see a few that you think might do, come back to the Hide and see if you can find some threads (Google-Fu is an important skill here) from people who actually own one. Also, look through the Optics info in the FAQ section above if you have questions regarding what you should be looking for. LOTS of good info there. Alternatively, there are several Sniper's Hide Supporters (vendors) that can also help you out given your criteria as listed above. Jay at Sport Optics is one example. It's always good to send business to vendors that support this website whenever possible, and these guys will do a great job to earn and keep your business.

In any case, you've got access to an enormous amount of resources here to help you make a decision and make an optics purchase that will do what you want. Good luck witrh it!
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you thi

Wow, this got a lot of responses quick. I will definitely, match the recticle and turret.

Not entirely sure which system I’ll go with, but after reading this, I’m leaning toward the MIL system. It seems like as long as the recticle and turrets match, both systems are equal.

So, let me see if I understand based on the feedback I’ve gotten so far. The only down side of the MIL system seems that if I want to range something and do the math in my head, I have to think of the target size in metric if I want to do the math in my head. I know that 1 mil is also 1 yard at 1000 yards, 1 inch at 1000 inches etc but If I’m trying to range a 16 inch target, it may be hard calculate what 16,000 inches is in my head. On the other hand, a 40 cm target would be 40,000 cm if it is 1 mil. That, I can convert to meters with very little thought, even if I’m pressed for time.

Is the above paragraph correct?

By the way, I don’t really have a good reason for mil ranging other than that I like learning new skills. When I hunt, I use a rangefinder, but when I’m practicing at unknown ranges, it seems like a more satisfying way to make a hit than to simply press a button.

By the way, sorry it took so long for me to respond. I’ve been following the responses with my phone, but I haven’t been able to get to a computer till today and I’m no good at typing on a phone.
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you thi

First, listen to lindy. Second "mils" always sounds metric because of milimeter. I don't know if it was on purpose but mils do work better (at least for me)with 10 based math. But I do not think in meters. I just think in yards and 1/10ths of yards. Use the shooter ready simulation and i think it will show you the math is not that bad at all. Just the other day I got into a argument with a local swat/sniper about mil/moa. when he saw my IOR had turrets that said "1 click = .1mil" he asked if i grew up in another contry and that he could never figure the metrics system out. I tried to explain that mil is an angle measurement same as MOA. Good thing I had my iphone with me and my home page is snipershide. linked to lindys' write up and after a bit I think he understood. In the end we both agreed that the turrets should match the retical. I'll never understand why scopes where ever made that didn't match.
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you thi

How can a concept that is so simple be made to be like quantum mechanics? Fire a shot-oopps missed,let see.... look through the reticle. Observe that said shot is high and right-place reticle on impact point-note that the reticle tells you EXACTLY how much to dope the scope. Turn knobs accordingly-next shot is on target.

NO MATH,NO CONVERSION-NO FUCKING GUESSING. Nothing to do with metric,standard or moa. Turrets match the reticle. Reticle becomes a USEFUL TOOL instead of being a fascinating object that will impress the hell out of the airsoft crowd.

For those that don't know. When LINDY writes a post-pay attention.
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you thi

If you are the spotter and do not have a reticle in your spotting scope, how do you call adjustments for someone using a MIL based scope?
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you thi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are the spotter and do not have a reticle in your spotting scope, how do you call adjustments for someone using a MIL based scope? </div></div>

You would be able to call an impact and the shooter would have to do the mechanics of correcting for the impact.

On of the big reasons why there is such a push for a good spotting scope. Spotter/Shooter relationship....
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you thi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are the spotter and do not have a reticle in your spotting scope, how do you call adjustments for someone using a MIL based scope? </div></div>

You would be able to call an impact and the shooter would have to do the mechanics of correcting for the impact.

On of the big reasons why there is such a push for a good spotting scope. Spotter/Shooter relationship.... </div></div>

I see, so if shooting at steel plates and the miss was to the right it would be something like "miss, 3 o clock, one third the width of the target from center"?

I've not been on a course covering shooter/spotter communication so forgive me if that's comically wrong...!
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you thi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are the spotter and do not have a reticle in your spotting scope, how do you call adjustments for someone using a MIL based scope? </div></div>

You would be able to call an impact and the shooter would have to do the mechanics of correcting for the impact.

On of the big reasons why there is such a push for a good spotting scope. Spotter/Shooter relationship.... </div></div>

I see, so if shooting at steel plates and the miss was to the right it would be something like "miss, 3 o clock, one third the width of the target from center"?

I've not been on a course covering shooter/spotter communication so forgive me if that's comically wrong...! </div></div>

If the spotter has a mil reticle in his scope can just the mils.

If he doesn't. the only way he can call distance off target is if he and the shooter can reference something, say the size of the target, the size of the vehicle it is by, but something. If he says a foot right at 3 o'clock the shooter can see where that is in the reticle and will be able to measure the adjustment with the rulers.

If the reticle matches the knobs whether it's mil/mil or moa/moa, there is no reason to ever try to do the math to figure out how many clicks it takes to move a foot and a half left and 8 inches down at 784 yds. Use the rulers.
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you thi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are the spotter and do not have a reticle in your spotting scope, how do you call adjustments for someone using a MIL based scope? </div></div>

You would be able to call an impact and the shooter would have to do the mechanics of correcting for the impact.

On of the big reasons why there is such a push for a good spotting scope. Spotter/Shooter relationship.... </div></div>

I see, so if shooting at steel plates and the miss was to the right it would be something like "miss, 3 o clock, one third the width of the target from center"?

I've not been on a course covering shooter/spotter communication so forgive me if that's comically wrong...! </div></div>

Pretty close. as opposed to we would both assume to be aiming for center target. and saying 3/4 mil right...left....up....or down.

you as the shooter have to be on the ball to know where you broke your shot (if you yanked the trigger or broke at a strange spot in the breathing cycle)
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you thi

What are everyones thoughts on moa/moa vs mil/mil?

Is there a clear advantage to having a finer adjustment with 1/4 moa clicks vs 1/10th mil clicks?
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you thi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kill_goose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What are everyones thoughts on moa/moa vs mil/mil?

Is there a clear advantage to having a finer adjustment with 1/4 moa clicks vs 1/10th mil clicks? </div></div>

Not that I have the ability to shoot inside of.
 
Re: Mil vs MOA, don't worry, it's not what you thi

Thanks for the education Chiller et al. Hopefully Carters efforts with our feedback will result in a great shooters spotting scope the masses could afford.