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Modern Winchester 70 pros and cons?

Son of Dorn

Castellan
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 27, 2019
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What's the general consensus about current-production Winchester M70s? The Pre-64 CRF is considered one of the best actions AFAIK, the Post-64 action was popular enough but didn't really do anything that the Remington 700 couldn't, and at some point in the 1990s they went back to a version of CRF before reverting to the classic Pre-64 Mauser-style action with a couple of improvements, so demand for the Pre-64 must've been high enough to warrant the changeover.

But is a current-production CRF M70 worth using as the basis for a custom/semi-custom rifle, if one wanted to have a CRF action? If so, why? If not, why not? What alternatives would there be? There are a great many actions out there based on the Remington 700 or similar; what (simple) Winchester-style CRF actions would be worth using if the Winchester wasn't?

~~Son of Dorn
 
My dad uses a modern one for hunting and I can say they are pretty good actions. I actually seem to like it a lot. Way better than a remmy 700 if you ask me.
 
My dad uses a modern one for hunting and I can say they are pretty good actions. I actually seem to like it a lot. Way better than a remmy 700 if you ask me.
One of the current-production CRF ones? Or a Post-64/Pre-2007 push-feed? Or a 1992 "Classic" CRF?
 
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One of the current-production CRF ones? Or a Post-64/Pre-2007 push-feed? Or a 1992 "Classic" CRF?

Forgot to clarify, pre07 push feed. It is very accurate and before I had my howa 1500 which I now primarily use for anything and everything, my dad and I would fight over who would use his model 70.
 
Bighorn Origin and TL3
Alamo APR Gen2 and APR Hunter
ARC Mausingfield Archimedes and Nucleus
Defiance

All available in CRF

Massive array of stocks and chassis and triggers etc that you'll NEVER get with a win70
Let us assume that the stock/chassis chosen is compatible with any listed option including the Win70 and that the trigger etc (including a detachable magazine, which if the Win70 won't take one that's the dealbreaker right there but let's say everything is compatible for the sake of argument) is likewise compatible with both. From an action/bolt-only standpoint, what do your suggestions do that the Winchester cannot?

(FTR the Defiance Deviant Hunter is probably the best contender atm; that's the one I had chosen before reconsidering the Winchester.)
 
Let us assume that the stock/chassis chosen is compatible with any listed option including the Win70 and that the trigger etc (including a detachable magazine, which if the Win70 won't take one that's the dealbreaker right there but let's say everything is compatible for the sake of argument) is likewise compatible with both. From an action/bolt-only standpoint, what do your suggestions do that the Winchester cannot?

(FTR the Defiance Deviant Hunter is probably the best contender atm; that's the one I had chosen before reconsidering the Winchester.)
Prefit barrels. Multiple boltface options. Multiple magazine options. Choice of barrel contour length twist chamberi beyond the standard offerings which are likely to small not threaded and slow twist for modern bullets
 
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A defiance deviant crf 3 position is almost 2 grand.

I haven’t shot a new70 but from cycling them multiple times I like it, I’ll likely end up with one eventually.
 
What's the general consensus about current-production Winchester M70s? The Pre-64 CRF is considered one of the best actions AFAIK, the Post-64 action was popular enough but didn't really do anything that the Remington 700 couldn't, and at some point in the 1990s they went back to a version of CRF before reverting to the classic Pre-64 Mauser-style action with a couple of improvements, so demand for the Pre-64 must've been high enough to warrant the changeover.

But is a current-production CRF M70 worth using as the basis for a custom/semi-custom rifle, if one wanted to have a CRF action? If so, why? If not, why not? What alternatives would there be? There are a great many actions out there based on the Remington 700 or similar; what (simple) Winchester-style CRF actions would be worth using if the Winchester wasn't?

~~Son of Dorn
I’m using a model 70 extreme weather as my deer/Elk rifle and like it very much. It’s accurate, it’s relatively light and always reliable. I own several different rifles but this is my go to hunting rifle.
 
I've got a love affair with the M70, but its been a family thing passed down from my grandfather. For a hunting rig they are amazing and when I build a custom hunting rifle I'll definitely be building off a M70 CRF. But if you are building a custom rig for competition or other heavy use that will require barrel changes, specific triggers, chassis options that is where the M70 suffers. Great rifles, heavy on nostalgia, not well supported by OEMs.
 
I had a bad experience with their extreme weather stainless rifles a few years ago. Cocking piece cut and cut into the cocking cam on the bolt. The material was obviously galled and felt like crap no matter how much grease I applied. Sent it back a few times, they gave me a new bolt and then that one started doing it too. When I called them on that one the service manager said it was normal. Posted a full disclose on GunBroker and sold it at a loss (gun, shipping to Winchester a few times, powder and bullets). Mine never shot better than 1.5 MOA despite lots of bullets and powders. For their $1,000+ MSRP I was disappointed.

That being said, I believe this issue was for their stainless rifles only. All the regular used CRF ones I've looked at have been fine. Sad that CZ got out of the Mauser game, save for their safari rifles, as they made some solid actions.
 
I own three FN SPR rifles, one of which was purchased new and the other two were picked up used. The actions are beefy, and while not as smooth as a custom are certainly nicer than your current production Remingtons.

You can still find used examples on Gunbroker in good shape for a touch over $1K...and that includes a McMillan stock as well as a barrel that probably isn't shot out and left the factory shooting sub-minute. For the fully adjustable McMillan models you might be closer to $1,500.
 
@diggler1833 Am I correct in thinking that a FN SPR was a Win70? That is to say, that they were built off Win70 actions the same way that the USMC M40 series was built off Rem 700s?
 
+1, it is a Win 70 action. Factory trued. Biggest downside as mentioned above is less aftermarket/gunsmith support than the 700 footprints.
 
I had a bad experience with their extreme weather stainless rifles a few years ago. Cocking piece cut and cut into the cocking cam on the bolt. The material was obviously galled and felt like crap no matter how much grease I applied. Sent it back a few times, they gave me a new bolt and then that one started doing it too. When I called them on that one the service manager said it was normal. Posted a full disclose on GunBroker and sold it at a loss (gun, shipping to Winchester a few times, powder and bullets). Mine never shot better than 1.5 MOA despite lots of bullets and powders. For their $1,000+ MSRP I was disappointed.

That being said, I believe this issue was for their stainless rifles only. All the regular used CRF ones I've looked at have been fine. Sad that CZ got out of the Mauser game, save for their safari rifles, as they made some solid actions.
A CZ Mauser action would not be objectionable, either. A used one might be doable and I'd given it consideration too.

As for the Win70, since it wouldn't be one of the stainless ones, I expect your issue wouldn't be a problem.
 
I love model 70’s. I have 3 guns built off of the crf actions. 1 pre 64 and 2 90’s era supergrades. I am interested to know if the current actions are good enough to spend the money to build a rifle with?
 
I think they are great. I have a couple of the New Haven stainless m70's and have never heard of the stainless galling inside the action.

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I built a rifle with an SPR action when they were surplused back in 08 or 09. I'm on my second barrel and I love the rifle; Proof CF, Manners, etc. I would buy a Tikka or build a rifle using an Origin or Nucleus action. Back when I built the rifle it made a lot of sense, today it makes almost no sense. I like Winchester receivers but they have almost no aftermarket support and Winchester's version of CRF is a pain in the ass for barrel fitment.
 
I am the odd one who actually likes their Controlled Round Push Feed CRPF action. Very smooth and my local gunsmith/hunting bud likes to build off them.
 
I love me some Win M70's but they are the stepchild when it comes to aftermarket parts and support as Cascade mentioned above.

Mine all run flawless. Not one FTF/FTE ever!
 
I have four Winchester M70SA CRF built as match rifles, so I have a major soft spot for them. But going forward I'm putting them out to pasture. They're all solid shooters, the triggers can be reworked for 16-20oz break, they're very smooth and getting the action cut for AI mags is a one-time thing. The dealbreaker is the extractor cut in the barrel tenon. The smith has to have the action in hand to time the extractor cut. I order a few barrels chambered up at a time but when it's time it's still a PITA to send the action in, instead of just calling to have new barrels spun up and sent based on measurements and no prefits of course.
 
Okay so the general agreement is that there's nothing especially bad about the M70, just that there's not so many options for it compared to some of the other actions out there.

Follow-up questions (semi-related): When was the Defiance "Deviant" action introduced?
 
Okay so the general agreement is that there's nothing especially bad about the M70, just that there's not so many options for it compared to some of the other actions out there.

Follow-up questions (semi-related): When was the Defiance "Deviant" action introduced?

Back when I built my rifle there weren't tons of inexpensive actions. I really like my M70/FN SPR but it is an evolutionary dead end. I easily have as much in the action and smithing as an Origin or Nucleus. Why invest in a platform like an M70 when you can either go custom or buy a complete rifle like a Tikka that is probably better anyway and continuing to thrive in the aftermarket?
 
Back when I built my rifle there weren't tons of inexpensive actions. I really like my M70/FN SPR but it is an evolutionary dead end. I easily have as much in the action and smithing as an Origin or Nucleus. Why invest in a platform like an M70 when you can either go custom or buy a complete rifle like a Tikka that is probably better anyway and continuing to thrive in the aftermarket?
It's not so much I'm invested in a direct M70 as I am in a Mauser-style CRF action. Could be a Win70, a CZ550, one of the assorted custom actions, doesn't really matter. It's just that I know what I like, and the Mauser-style CRF is what I like. Otherwise I'd just go with a plain ol' Rem700 action or something similar and not worry about it.

But this is for the moment a purely hypothetical/theoretical rifle and not one I plan to build now or in the near future. I'm just thinking and figuring out what would work best for what I have in mind.
 
It's not so much I'm invested in a direct M70 as I am in a Mauser-style CRF action. Could be a Win70, a CZ550, one of the assorted custom actions, doesn't really matter. It's just that I know what I like, and the Mauser-style CRF is what I like. Otherwise I'd just go with a plain ol' Rem700 action or something similar and not worry about it.

But this is for the moment a purely hypothetical/theoretical rifle and not one I plan to build now or in the near future. I'm just thinking and figuring out what would work best for what I have in mind.
Get a Mausingfield. Done.
 
I love the Model 70 and the Mauser 98's for hunting rifles, I have gone into fine detail as to why in other posts so if interested just search on my name. No earth shattering reasons just what I appreciate in a hunting gun that is used out to 500 yards.

A few years back I decided to build a pair of classic hunting guns pretty much identical except for caliber, 7x57 and 9.3x62. I have a couple of decent English walnut blanks to stock the guns with. Now what action, I picked up a couple of Sears Model 50, before you puke on the Sears gun understand they were built on FN commercial Mauser 98 actions a good if not great action for a hunting build. The only mods I will do to the actions is to install a 3-pos swing safety on them, like the Model 70 has always had. The model 50's are sleepers, if I did not know better I would have thought what kind of quality would a Sears gun be, I have bought the Model 50's from $300 to $350, a pretty good price point.

Sorry to derail but thought I would point another possible path for a hunting gun.
 
Two M70’s built by GA Precision. One is the 6.5 SAUM the other is a 338 Win Mag. SAUM wears the March and the 338 has the Bushnell LRH that GAP designed
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They are both Manners MST’s, stock work by GAP and painted by Custom Gun Coatings.
 
They are both Manners MST’s, stock work by GAP and painted by Custom Gun Coatings.
Nice. For this rifle I'm thinking about, the intention was to use a McMillan, not sure which one but I like the A3s and the thumbhole A5. An Accuracy International setup with the folding thumbhole modification is appealing, though.
 
Nice. For this rifle I'm thinking about, the intention was to use a McMillan, not sure which one but I like the A3s and the thumbhole A5. An Accuracy International setup with the folding thumbhole modification is appealing, though.
FYI. Tim Roberts the owner of Crescent Customs loves the M70’s, if your going custom may want to keep them on your radar. He used to work for GA Precision before starting his own shop. I am sure there are other great shops that work on 70’s

Mine are of the hunting lineage I have takes 4 moose with the SAUM and 2 with the 338. Numerous caribou some bears....
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I have 3 modern Win 70s, all built and assembled in SC. Two are EWs: one in .30-06 Sprg and one in 7mm RM and one is a Super Grade in 7x57 aka .275 Rigby (I have a bunch of .275 Rigby Hornady brass). They are smooth, well-machined, and surprisingly accurate (<0.75 MOA). I will be investigating building a precision rifle with the 7mm RM when I shoot out the barrel. I have been very pleased with the B&C Al bedding block stock. I have Zeiss 3.5-10x40 scopes on the Extreme Weathers with Rapid Z800 reticles and a Leupy 3-9x40 duplex on the 7x57. I view them as exceptional rifles that are better made than pre-'64 rifles and have taken some game with the EWs...they don't warp, rust, malfunction, or, (and I give 20% credit to the operator) miss.

YMMV but I hope not...I've been delighted with mine.

Cheers,

Harry
 
If I do go with an M70. I'm starting to lean a bit more toward the Mausingfield for this one. It's down the road, though. Plenty of time to figure it out and no need to rush. Other projects come first.
Since the Mausenfield came out I wanted one and still do. Then saw I can get a Defiance with crf want one also then came the T3 put that in the cart as well. But got into sheep hunting this year and that shot is expensive. Now I am leaning to a Mack Bro’s Ti, cf proof, game warden stock and dbm.
 
If I do go with an M70. I'm starting to lean a bit more toward the Mausingfield for this one. It's down the road, though. Plenty of time to figure it out and no need to rush. Other projects come first.

This is probably the best thing you could do. It checks all the boxes it sounds like you’re looking for, but offers more flexibility in the end. The interchangeable bolt heads are also a great flexibility feature in the future. This also opens up all the Remington aftermarket to you.

I had a lot of the same thoughts and considerations you are currently having. I settled on an ARC Nucleus (essentially a Mausingfield with a 60* bolt throw)... couldn’t be happier.
 
This is probably the best thing you could do. It checks all the boxes it sounds like you’re looking for, but offers more flexibility in the end. The interchangeable bolt heads are also a great flexibility feature in the future. This also opens up all the Remington aftermarket to you.

I had a lot of the same thoughts and considerations you are currently having. I settled on an ARC Nucleus (essentially a Mausingfield with a 60* bolt throw)... couldn’t be happier.
My only real issues with a Mausingfield are the apparent lack of a Win70 style safety and a mild concern that I'd have trouble finding a barrel that I like. But the safety is not really a requirement (Rem700 is fine) and I'm sure I can find a barrel that works for me when I get down to it.
 
why would you have trouble finding a barrel?
I said it was a mild concern finding a barrel that I like. I'm sure that I'll find many but getting the best fit for me is always a concern regardless of project. When I'm not on my phone at the gym I'll edit the thread and explain what I'm looking for in a barrel, and maybe y'all can make the search easier.
 
any smith can make a barrel for you for a Mausingfield without even needing the action.

Keystone, PVA, Bugholes, WTO, Altus, Mile High

or a prefit barrel from xcaliber or criterion and spin it on yourself

any caliber cartride length contour. easy peasy
 
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As b6graham said, the barrel is not an issue.

To me what the issue is, is which version you like? The CRF, PRF or the CPRF?
Controlled round feed is the "classic". Winchester went away from them in 1964 as they were too expensive to compete with Remington 700's. They had the Mauser claw which by many standards, is the best extraction system ever. I like it, but it's also a pain to throw a case on the feed tray and load it. You have to slam it in to get the extractor over the case rim. In that same vein, you have to get a barrel timed then cut the extraction slot. Some say it's a really big deal, other gunsmiths do not. But, it is a couple extra steps and there is no way to get around a machinist has to do the work.

Enter the "push round feed", which is my favorite. Much maligned by Jack O'Connor as he loved the pre-'64 CRF. it simplified the process by which the action and bolt parts were made. IMO, it retained a lot of the good things the pre-'64 had. The three-position safety and still better extractor than the Remingtons. It dropped in accuracy, because that was when Winchester went to the hammer forged barrels. The fit of the early change-over rifles was not as good as before. But, from a gunsmith point of view, you no longer needed to make the extractor cut, the action bottom remained flat, the recoil lug remained integral, ( both better for bedding, I believe). Anyhow, it was too much change for the voices of gundom and it hurt Winchester's appeal. It was still a better rifle than the 700.

After re-introducing the "Classic" claw extractor, someone in bean counter land decided let's give everyone the best of both worlds. A controlled round push feed. The marketing mistake with this is no one cared whether or not you had to load a round upside down. That's just never been an issue. The real value of the claw extractor was its ability to extract a very tough round to get out of the chamber. The CRPF basically took a PRF bolt face and milled off the lower rim so the case head would slide up the face of a bolt while it was being loaded. Thus fully controlled. But, if you tossed a case on the feed tray, due to the extractor being just like the PRF, it fed without having to slam over the rim.
The problem here is you no longer have the strength of either the CRF or the PRF extraction systems because the boss on the bottom of the extractor piece is tiny. The support it got from the bottom rim was milled away. Nice idea, but won't extract a hard case. It'll break first. I know this first hand.

So, in general, I'd take a Winny over most other actions. With the right work you can make a pre- load singly as well as a post-. If you like the newer CRPF, get one, just don't force rounds into it. That can be an expensive mistake.
 
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I have two built on m70's, my match rifle is a new manufacture CRF short action and shoots and runs flawless. Factory action wise they're the best there is in my book, but with the great options of quality CRF custom actions out there now I'd go that route instead of building another. My biggest gripe is availability of triggers on the new Winchesters. The MOA trigger actually feels great but isn't robust, I broke my sear off last year. Replaced it with a Timney that I'm not happy with; would kill for a good two stage trigger.
 
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