More neck sizing questions

[Thor2j]

I currently reload .308 and .338lm for long range (1000yds). I use redding type s neck size only. After about 5 firings I ever so slightly bump the shoulder back .002". All is good. It takes my lapua brass in 308 this long to "fit the chamber." I enjoy not having to lube cases all the time.
My question is I'm about to start loading .260 and trying to decide what dies. Can u back a FL bushing die out enough so it only neck sizes without lube or can't this be done. I would almost rather continue using my 3 dies that are all set with lock rings then have to re adjust to bump shoulder.

 

[ksthomas]

Re: More neck sizing questions

Thor2j,

properly, no. Backing a FL size die off a bit results in what's known as "partial sizing". As the name implies, it's not true Neck Sizing, and it isn't correctly done Full Length sizing, either. Some calibers are better about this than others, depending on the case configuration (body taper, etc.), but it's a bastardization no matter how you look at it. Why no just go with straight Full Length sizing and a case gage to verify how much you're bumping the shoulder? Setting it back by .001" or .002" each firing will not hurt case life or accuracy one bit, and you'll avoid some potentially troublesome pitfalls that go hand in hand with Neck Sizing.

 

[Thor2j]

Re: More neck sizing questions

I guess my reasoning for not FL is the first 5 or 6 loads the shoulders don't stretch enough. At least on the lapua 308 brass. After that it would be a wash since I would bump the shoulder back anyways after each firing. I have all the equipment to measure shoulder bump as that's hat I'm doing now.
So is it your recommendation to let the brass form to the chamber, backing the FL die out on the first 3 or 4 rounds, when u feel a light stick in bolt bump the shoulder .002" and see how it feels? That's what I've been doing now but with 3 dies.

My question is can u back the FL bushing die out enough so it will let shoulder grow but yet full neck sizes?

 

[ksthomas]

Re: More neck sizing questions

In that case, I'd say "yes" since it will take a couple firings for the brass to be truly "formed" to your chamber. Take note of that measurement, and set the dies accordingly from that point onward.

As to the partial sizing and my explanation of it, it used to be a fairly common practice, which (thankfully) is now disappearing. Just didn't want to send you down a road that there's going to be potholes on if I could help it. FL dies, gages, and a little attention to detail and you should be good to go.

 

[Thor2j]

Re: More neck sizing questions

Kevin,
Thanks for the ideas. Another question is are you a fan of the redding competition shell holders or more a fan of just measuring and adjusting the die for shoulder prescsion?

 

[ksthomas]

Re: More neck sizing questions

Thor2j,

I've got a set for both 308 and 223, and they do sem to work well. I've really never had an issue with simply adjusting the die itself, but for some handloaders needs, I think they could come in handy. Two rifles of the same caliber that had a slight difference in headspace dimensions, and for which you want to load (and keep seperate) two batches of brass. That's one that I can see them making life a bit easier. I used to routinely load for 20-30 different 308s, and frankly didn't have the time to be changing the lock rings for each. There, I just set them up to function in all, and ran with it. No problems, good case life and accuracy virtually never went over 1/2 MOA in any of them. That, for one, is why I'm so adamant about just Full Length sizing, and forgetting about all the Neck Sizing nonsense and BS.

 

[Thor2j]

Re: More neck sizing questions

Kevin,

Last question (I think), are your using the redding bushing FL or are you not a bushing person? What FL die do you recommend for 260 Lapua brass.

 

[ksthomas]

Re: More neck sizing questions

Yes, I do use the bushing dies, and I've been a long time fan. Always had excellent results with them, in a wide variety of calibers.

I'll have to say, I vary how I reload depending on what I'm doing. Just makes sense to me, considering quantities, diffrences in accuracy demands, etc.. In otherwords, what I do for my HP Silhouette ammo is quite different from how I load my "across the course" loads for my HP Service Rifle competition ammo. And that is also quite a bit different from how I load my true Long Range or Palma match ammo. Your reloading bench is a tool box, and not all the jobs your ammo does are nails; you need more than just a hammer, if you get my drift. I use progressives, I use single stages. I throw charges through a measure, and others I weigh individually. Handloading really is a case where one size doesn't fit all. I suspect that for most of us, that's part of the appeal; the ability to tailor ammunition to the specific task at hand.

Take a look at what you're doing, and decide how much detail and time you want to put into it, based on its final application. You'll know what to do, and it'll be right for you.

 

[Thor2j]

Re: More neck sizing questions

Thanks for all the info.

 

[Thor2j]

Re: More neck sizing questions

Kevin,
What are your thoughts on chamber length. New lapua 308 brass is 2.007(ish), my chamber is much longer. Do u still trim to a set length so they are all even thus similar friction/pressure?? Do u let them get much longer then Sami since they will still chamber fine.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: More neck sizing questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin Thomas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, I do use the bushing dies, and I've been a long time fan. Always had excellent results with them, in a wide variety of calibers.

I'll have to say, I vary how I reload depending on what I'm doing. Just makes sense to me, considering quantities, diffrences in accuracy demands, etc.. In otherwords, what I do for my HP Silhouette ammo is quite different from how I load my "across the course" loads for my HP Service Rifle competition ammo. And that is also quite a bit different from how I load my true Long Range or Palma match ammo. Your reloading bench is a tool box, and not all the jobs your ammo does are nails; you need more than just a hammer, if you get my drift. I use progressives, I use single stages. I throw charges through a measure, and others I weigh individually. Handloading really is a case where one size doesn't fit all. I suspect that for most of us, that's part of the appeal; the ability to tailor ammunition to the specific task at hand.

Take a look at what you're doing, and decide how much detail and time you want to put into it, based on its final application. You'll know what to do, and it'll be right for you. </div></div>

See, this is why it's so difficult to give a straight answer, if you know all the exceptions. While 30 different 308s is an awesome number, I have enough variety in tight neck chambers, bushing dies, neck turning, deer rifles and so on to appreciate the distinction(s). The most difficult habit for me to break is weighing charges even though I <span style="font-style: italic">know</span> it's unnecessary and perhaps counterproductive in some cases. And, when lacking a suitable die, I am guilty of partial full length sizing, which seems to work? <shrug>
BB

 

[ksthomas]

Re: More neck sizing questions

Thor2j,

If you want a definitive answer to this one, check out the Sinclair catalog and look up their Chamber Length Gauges (yes, I'm a big believer in gages). These are very soft steel gages that are used in conjunction with a slightly modified (i.e., sacrificed to the cause) case to determine the absolute max length of cases that can be used in <span style="text-decoration: underline">your</span> particular chamber. Max SAAMI or (in our case) CIP length for a 308 Win is 2.015". Most chambers can handle cases a fair bit longer than this. But it's a safety issue, and it's worth knowing. In use, the gage is inserted into the modified (trimmed) case, and chambered in the rifle. The end of the chamber will push the gage back and can be measured once it's extracted from the chamber; that's your absolute maximum length. Keep them trimmed below that, and you're fine. Let them get any longer and you'll start having interference problems, pressure spikes and other ugly problems. You'll be just fine at the 2.007" you mentioned. I have generally trimmed my 308s back to 2.000" even, so I don't have to do so much trimming. Start handloading and shooting 500-600 rounds a day, and you need to streamline things a bit. That was one of the areas that I could save some time, and a standard habit I got into over the years. Not a problem, and as I said, never had an issue with keeping my groups consistently under 1/2 MOA.

 

[ksthomas]

Re: More neck sizing questions

BuzzBoss915,

In the example I cited to Thor2j, all of the 308s were one of only about three different types of chambers. The vast majority were Obermeyer (which was my standard test chamber), the Palma, which was only used for testing 155s, and a very small number of 7.62 M852 Match, for certifying some military contract stuff. No tight necks, no neck turning, and no other special prep whatsoever. All cases had to work reliably and accurately in all these chambers, and they always did. No weighed powder charges, either, since the max testing range was 300m, and frankly, I never had the time. Like I said, in a production environment like that, it was all about keeping things simple.

 

[Thor2j]

Re: More neck sizing questions

Kevin,
Yes I already got one of those Sinclair gauges and measured. In the directions it says to subtract some number, and keep them at that length. It was well over the Sami max. I think my game plan with be to keep them around factory new length.

 

[ksthomas]

Re: More neck sizing questions

No problem at all, and you'll certainly never get into trouble that way! Glad to hear you're already using the gages, too. L.E. Wilson used to have a saying that, "you don't know what you 'know', you only know what you measure." Good advice, whether we're talking about datum lines, chamber lengths, OALs or whatever. Saves a lot of trouble this way.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: More neck sizing questions

Don't misunderstand me, Kevin Thomas; I am impressed.

BB

 

[ksthomas]

Re: More neck sizing questions

BuzzBoss915,

No offense taken, and I just wanted to clarify the situation; the rifles weren't "mine" per se, but merely the tools I had to work with everyday. I do have a couple of my own personal 308s done up with these chambers, and I'd recommend the Obermeyer very highly for general or competitive use. The Palma, with it's shorter throating is ideal for lighter (155 and under) bullets, and I have two competition rifles done with this chamber. Both have been outstanding shooters, but have never seen anything other than the 155 Palma bullets. Thye M852 Match seems to work pretty well in the M14, but I never had any really impressive guns that were chambered with it in bolt action. I'd guess that I'd used that chambering in bolt guns in propably 20-30 rilfes over the years, and not a single one was as "solid" as the run of the mill guns chambered with the Obermeyer reamer. I just built an M110 (AR-10) rifle for Long Range Service Rifle competition, and that might have been a candidtate for this application. Had the rifle set up for the 185 Berger, so that was the main focus. Just getting this one up and running and haven't shot a match with it yet, so no news on how it'll run. Hoping to use this one at Perry next year, so we'll have to hit a few LR matches in between and see what it can do.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: More neck sizing questions

Amigo, you are so beyond me it's funny. I am mainly a predator hunter, and other live targets, fool around with benchrest somewhat. Hunt big game occasionally with one safari under my belt. Never competed in service rifle, but I (for sure) know what you are talking about. I'm getting interested in F class but we only have a 600 yard range. You know, it's a big tent. BB