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More Problems with a POF-308

M

Mitch Harrington

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Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 6, 2013
21
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53
Oklahoma City
I have the 16" POF-308 NP3 .308. I have upgraded the trigger to a JP trigger. The glass is the Bushnell Tactical Elite 1-8.5X sitting in a Larue mount. I'm using a Harris bipod with rear bag. It has been back to POF twice now and it groups the same (2moa) when it gets back. I have a good amount of experience shooting gas guns and have NEVER had a problem getting one to group like I have this rifle. I have tried the following loads:

42.6gr of IMR4064 175gr SMK @2.800"
43gr of Varget 175gr SMK @2.800"
44gr of Varget 175gr SMK @2.800"
43gr of Varget 168gr SMK @2.800"
44.5gr of Varget 155gr SPM @2.78"
46.5gr of CFE-223 175gr SMK @2.800"
46.5gr of CFE-223 168gr SMK @2.800"
47.5gr of CFE-223 166gr SPM @2.78"
Factory FGMM 168gr
A friends Varget load
A friends IMR8208 load

I've now had a total of six different shooters shoot this rifle. I've tried a lead sled. I've tried the following scopes:

Bushnell Tactical Elite 1-8.5X in a Larue mount
Vortex Razor HD 5-20X in Vortex rings
Vortex Viper PST 1-4X in Larue mount

I can't even begin to tell you how many trips to the range or how much money I've spent in components trying to get this rifle to shoot properly. Unfortunately, it's up to POF to build an accurate rifle. It appears this is a common complaint among the POF owners.

I've sent another email to Don and Cody. I'm hopeful the third time will be the charm. ;) I cannot, in good conscience, sell this rifle to someone else knowing the problems. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Has anyone done a barrel/BCG swap with any luck? I hate to spend more money on this POS but I suspect it is the only way I will end up with an accurate rifle.
 
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What have they done to remedy or otherwise said about the accuracy problems with the rifle when they have had it back for service/warranty/repair? Did they test it for accuracy after receiving/repairing it? What were their results and with what ammo if they tested it? That's definitely NOT normal for the POF rifles I have laid hands on (and otherwise still own), including various P-308s in different barrel lengths/configurations.

As for a rebarrel job...I'm sure that GAP would be happy to assist you with that and would otherwise work to ensure that you get a properly functioning and accurate rifle. Hell, if you are going through all that and POF can't get it right for you, my first course of action would probably be to have them use the base components from your rifle to build a you a GAP-10 to your specs (unless of course you are wanting to keep the piston setup and not go to DI).
 
The first time they told me they replaced the barrel. The second time they told me they sent me a brand new upper. They've told me several things that haven't come to pass so I'm not so sure they have done what they say they have. As far as ammo, they told me they used 168gr FGMM. I tried five from a friend when we were at the range with the first upper and then I bought a box to try this new upper when it came back.

It would be funny if there wasn't so much frustration/money involved. Our gun club was having a hunter sight-in day yesterday so I took it out with a third scope. There were a lot of guys standing around shaking their heads after shooting this rifle or watching others shoot this rifle. I routinely get .6moa groups out of my cobbled together AR-15s and sub .5moa groups with my Savage 10fcp. Hell, I shot a .8 moa group at 200y with my 3gun rifle that had an unmagnified AIMPOINT on top of it.
 
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A friend of mine has one and it's pretty hard to NOT shoot a sub-moa group with it.

His is set up with a nightforce 2-10 in medium/high rings. Larue mount might make it too high because the pof handguard adds about .3".

Someone on here posted about a pair of set screws in the front part of the handguard being critical to accuracy but I have no knowledge of that.

What makes you think that they didn't replace the barrel or upper when they said that they did? And did they send you a target proving that they shot it as well as they said that they did?
 
Your frustration/aggravation is understandable. My go-to P308 is a 20" SPR and with 168gr FGMM it is easily sub-MOA capable, as are others I have used with that same load. I wish I could impart some useful wisdom to you about how you can get her to shoot corrently, but it sounds like it just may be cursed and time to move on (whether you sell the rifle outright under full disclosure of the issues you are having and you take a beating on the price or you have the braintrust at GAP make it right for you which I have no doubts whatsoever that they can do it having seen and shot another "converted" POF to GAP-10 rifle that was just frighteningly and boringly accurate ;) ).
 
The fact that we are getting the exact same results is what makes me think they didn't replace the barrel. They, on several occasions, made promises of ship times, taking it to the range over a weekend, matching and hand lapping a barrel/bolt/bcg. None of these things happened (at their admission) so it's hard to take someone at their word when it has been broken several times.

They did in fact send a target. There is NO WAY that target was shot with this upper.

Let me be clear. I'd much rather have an accurate rifle than to have to waste my time bitching about the poor quality of a rifle on the internet.
 
Just a thought. Anybody local to OK want to give it a try? I'd love to get some more Hide members try this rifle. Your ammo. My ammo. Factory ammo. It really isn't going to matter.
 
Hi, Mitch. I'm no long-range expert, but I do have 2 POF-308's. I have also worked through some issues related to top rail screws and set screw
(the 2 top rail screws in front) tension. I also have one that needed a chamber polish for extraction issues. I would be happy to meet you at my local range in Owasso, USSA. We only have 300 yds, but we can certainly go over it together and see what we can figure out. PM me for my cell if you wish.

Weekdays are actually better for me than weekends, but let me know your schedule availability too.

Tom
 
Sorry to hear that. I sent mine back but before I did I marked the barrel. They claimed they replaced the barrel. However they did not. Very furious when I got it back with a target showing .5MOA and it was the same dang 2moa gun it was when I sent it to them
 
TexasMade said:
Sorry to hear that. I sent mine back but before I did I marked the barrel. They claimed they replaced the barrel. However they did not. Very furious when I got it back with a target showing .5MOA and it was the same dang 2moa gun it was when I sent it to them
Click to expand...

Yeah, that would piss me off to no end as well. What did you end up doing?
 
TexasMade said:
Sorry to hear that. I sent mine back but before I did I marked the barrel. They claimed they replaced the barrel. However they did not. Very furious when I got it back with a target showing .5MOA and it was the same dang 2moa gun it was when I sent it to them
Click to expand...

That is weak sauce right there. Enough to wipe them off the potential list forever. Poor show.
 
I sold it at a gun show with a 1.5 MOA target I pulled off with reloads. Some people 1.5 is plenty for what they want to do. Not me though
 
WOW .... really wanted to get a pof 308 ....

but with all the problems ... it might be worth giving up a little accuracy for more RELIABILITY ..... 1 MOA GUN THAT WILL SHOOT ANY THING ... i really like the piston .... im thinking scar 17/ lwrc repr /716
 
TexasMade said:
Sorry to hear that. I sent mine back but before I did I marked the barrel. They claimed they replaced the barrel. However they did not. Very furious when I got it back with a target showing .5MOA and it was the same dang 2moa gun it was when I sent it to them
Click to expand...

The first time they told me they "replaced the barrel", it came back with a mark on it that i could have sworn I had done while installing a sling stud. I didn't mention this because I wasn't positive and wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt. It looks like my suspicions are confirmed.
 
It's threads like this that makes me rejoice the fact they couldn't deliver the P308 I waited 22 months before cancelling back in 09-10.

Best of luck OP.
 
Mitch, how much experience do you have behind a precision semi? I'm only asking because it's a much different beast than shooting a bolt gun and any flaw in your form or technique will be exploited much more behind a semi than a bolt.

The set screws on the top rail have specific torque settings and you can get that info via PDF on the POF website.

Lemme know next time you're gonna be in Tulsa and I'll meet up with you and bring my own ammo to see if we can get your issue straightened out. Sorry for all the headaches you've been enduring.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
 
The manual says torque to 25 in lbs. I just looked at mine last night and they were way out if spec so Iam going to the range this weekend. I have a thread with the same problems so I hope this helps. Will keep updating the progress.
 
I had a friend that had a POF P-308 and went thru the same ordeal you have been going thru. He sent it in 2X from Flagstaff, AZ to POF in Scottsdale, AZ on his dime and both times it came back with the same problems. Failure to extract and/or failure to eject. Fortunately his business took him to Scottsdale and he carried the rifle in to them. He waited several hours until they repaired it. They replaced the entire upper and BCG. That fixed the rifle but he was so discussed he sold it. I just bought a POF P-308 but haven't had a chance to shoot it yet. I got a video of the former owner shooting a full magazine dump so at least I know it will extract and eject. Now I just hope I don't have accuracy problems.
I hope you are eventually able to resolve your accuracy problems. With all the steps you went thru it has to be a problem with the rifle imo. Good luck.
 
Mitch,

I spoke with Rob Peterson of POF last night over the phone for a few minutes. He gave me the 'OK' to provide you with his cell number and requested you give him a call.

(623) 308-5691
Phoenix, AZ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
 
Maybe you should have provided the cell number as a PM. You've given the entire world Mr Peterson's number.
 
hlee said:
Maybe you should have provided the cell number as a PM. You've given the entire world Mr Peterson's number.
Click to expand...

Or, maybe not...seeing as how it's his work number, he permitted me to post it, and it can be found elsewhere on this forum if you look hard enough. He has posted it himself in the past but thanks for being concerned. ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
 
KillShot said:
Mitch,

I spoke with Rob Peterson of POF last night over the phone for a few minutes. He gave me the 'OK' to provide you with his cell number and requested you give him a call.

(623) 308-5691


Phoenix, AZ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

WOW !!!!! THAT'S CUSTOMER SERVICE .... VERY IMPRESSIVE FOR A COMPANY TO STEP UP LIKE THAT...

i will have to rethink my previous post about looking at other platforms ... with that kind of support ... gives me confidence to buy a POF .... love the platform .... just all the story's make you wonder .

good job KILLSHOT
 
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Thats rough man. I am sorry to hear that. My buddy had problems with his GAP-10 but last I talked to him they fixed it up right and now its perfect.

I have read many forums with the same issue. My advice, sell it for what you feel comfortable with and get a Sig 716. I know people all complain because it is somewhat proprietary, but I love mine and I get sub MOA groups easy.
 
Are these the two allen head set screws on the rail where the scope mounts near the muzzle end of the rail?
 
TexasMade said:
Sorry to hear that. I sent mine back but before I did I marked the barrel. They claimed they replaced the barrel. However they did not. Very furious when I got it back with a target showing .5MOA and it was the same dang 2moa gun it was when I sent it to them
Click to expand...

Wow. That is a huge negative. I can't stand being lied to.
 
The 2 allen head screws are lock-down screws for 2 underneath. I don't know what the manual says now, but I have all mine set to 10# and the locking screws set to 25#.

That has worked very well for me. When any of mine stop grouping, first thing I do is check all the top screws.

Also, under those 1st 2 screws is a spacer that rides above the barrel nut. When dissassembled they can get put back in backwards.
 
See my post above. I don't see specs in the manual. I remember talking to them on the phone and getting 10# for the 2 screws underneath. I chose 25# for all the rest on my own.
 
Mitch I am curious what you find. From the trouble shooting you have done it seems like the only common is the rifle. I have had a similar issue although it was with a bolt gun. Chased my tail and over 400 rounds of load development. Switched the barrel and the rifle was shooting .25 MOA within 20 rounds. I would send it back and mark the barrel somehow. Everyone has posted how much different gas guns are to run and I will confirm that. One last step is removing the muzzle brake and testing it. Seems odd I know but its the only other thing I have not seen you check. I dont think it is the muzzle device but I would check it anyway. I have seen it before although rare. Take care Mitch.
 
I handle customer service and some of the technical support for another AR Manufacturer. I've read through pretty much this whole thread and would like to throw in my two cents. First, why would they lie to you about replacing a barrel? Especially when they sent you a test target as proof. It's a 10 minute operation, tops, to swap out a barrel. They'd stand to really look like dumbasses and on this forum that's something a manufacturer wants to avoid. Especially with regard to accuracy. It's not worth the bad press. I'm inclined to think there's something else going on here.

Gas guns are generally inherently less accurate than Bolt guns but as you all probably already know there are a few crucial "must haves" that I'm aware of that will improve accuracy. You must have a good barrel capable of sub-MOA groups... and POF does. You must have a perfectly true and relatively tight barrel extension to receiver fit. POF's Uppers are billet which are generally more precisely machined than forged uppers and I'm pretty sure they make sure they're true. You must have a properly cut chamber, properly fitted barrel extension and properly fitted bolt to that barrel extension/barrel (A tighter bolt may be more accurate but less reliable and a looser bolt the opposite). I don't know what they do here but I'd assume it's somewhere in the middle, leaning toward the reliability side.

Everything I mentioned is what POF does to make sure you get the best rifle they can produce... And the most accurate. If they've done their job and sent you a test target to prove it, you may need to look elsewhere.

Maybe the ammo. The best stuff I've made for .308 AR's with a 1:10" twist is small base full-length sized Lake City Match brass with 41gr. of RL15, 168gr. SMK's and 2.800 OAL. No crimp. I know it's Considerably weaker than what you've tried but it looks like you went up in velocity where I went down. Just a thought. I'm by no means an expert on which load works best in what platform.

Maybe something is goofy with the different optics you've used or the mounting of them. I won't tell you how many times I've been asked to test the accuracy of a rifle and found something loose having to do with the optics.

Or, maybe as someone else mentioned, the dynamics of firing a gas gun vs. a bolt gun is a problem for the shooter.

Or, maybe... And most likely, I'm leaning toward POF not being the bad guy here because I hate people thinking I'm the bad guy when I can't solve their problem with everything available to me 1000 miles away from the customer.

FWIW...

John
 
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Find someone else who has one and swap out barrels then see if it shoots, short of that buy a GAP10 and never have to worry about it again.
 
I had a Gap-10 that didn't group worth a darn. Yes I know I could have sent it in and they would have taken care of it, but I sold it on an auction site when prices were sky high.
 
A friend of mine bought a POF 308 brand new during the panic and had nothing with problems and no "service" from POF. It couldn't run a full mag without choking a few times with several different types of ammo we dicked with it and dicked with it some more and no dice. He sent it back to POF the first time on his dime and it came back with the same problems, they claimed they shot over a hundred rounds and couldn't duplicate the problem. First mag through it there it goes again. This time we cleaned the piss out of it and sent it in. Came back same deal but still clean as a whistle and they claim to not have cleaned after test firing. This confirmed our suspicions because had they fired it then it would have had problems. He asked for his money back and they declined saying they would be happy to look at it again. He still has it but to my knowledge gave up on it, it was never tested for accuracy because he put some crappy leapers scope on it just to fire it and after that the main concern was just getting it to run.

IMO if you want a piston 308 carbine, buy a SCAR. If you want precision buy a LMT, Larue, or KAC.
 
redneckbmxer24 said:
A friend of mine bought a POF 308 brand new during the panic and had nothing with problems and no "service" from POF. It couldn't run a full mag without choking a few times with several different types of ammo we dicked with it and dicked with it some more and no dice. He sent it back to POF the first time on his dime and it came back with the same problems, they claimed they shot over a hundred rounds and couldn't duplicate the problem. First mag through it there it goes again. This time we cleaned the piss out of it and sent it in. Came back same deal but still clean as a whistle and they claim to not have cleaned after test firing. This confirmed our suspicions because had they fired it then it would have had problems. He asked for his money back and they declined saying they would be happy to look at it again. He still has it but to my knowledge gave up on it, it was never tested for accuracy because he put some crappy leapers scope on it just to fire it and after that the main concern was just getting it to run.

IMO if you want a piston 308 carbine, buy a SCAR. If you want precision buy a LMT, Larue, or KAC.
Click to expand...

After spending all of that cash, I don't think I'd have given up on it. There are innumerable AR smiths who could check it for not a whole lot of dough. It might be something mundane causing the malfunction. I'd just hate to have spent that much cash and not be able to use the rifle.
 
FALex said:
After spending all of that cash, I don't think I'd have given up on it. There are innumerable AR smiths who could check it for not a whole lot of dough. It might be something mundane causing the malfunction. I'd just hate to have spent that much cash and not be able to use the rifle.
Click to expand...

He got tired of the disappointment but couldn't talk himself into selling it to somebody so he put it away. He'd love to get his money back from it but the dealer he bought it from is in no way obligated to take it back in, POF won't, and nobody is going to give him retail for a gun that doesn't run right. He also doesn't want to put any more money into it because I already suggested sending it to GAP since I know they work on them. I'm sure the next panic that comes around he will try to sell it for what he paid with full disclosure. He's already bought a replacement and isn't hurting for cash so I'm sure it doesn't bother him any to sit.
 
redneckbmxer24 said:
He got tired of the disappointment but couldn't talk himself into selling it to somebody so he put it away. He'd love to get his money back from it but the dealer he bought it from is in no way obligated to take it back in, POF won't, and nobody is going to give him retail for a gun that doesn't run right. He also doesn't want to put any more money into it because I already suggested sending it to GAP since I know they work on them. I'm sure the next panic that comes around he will try to sell it for what he paid with full disclosure. He's already bought a replacement and isn't hurting for cash so I'm sure it doesn't bother him any to sit.
Click to expand...

I think a lot of rifles that are "like that" have some big underlying problem that the makers don't want to deal with. And some setups by their nature are very finicky.
 
redneckbmxer24 said:
He got tired of the disappointment but couldn't talk himself into selling it to somebody so he put it away. He'd love to get his money back from it but the dealer he bought it from is in no way obligated to take it back in, POF won't, and nobody is going to give him retail for a gun that doesn't run right. He also doesn't want to put any more money into it because I already suggested sending it to GAP since I know they work on them. I'm sure the next panic that comes around he will try to sell it for what he paid with full disclosure. He's already bought a replacement and isn't hurting for cash so I'm sure it doesn't bother him any to sit.
Click to expand...

Roger that, sounds like a good plan. Hopefully his new one shoots well.
 
Mitch, any updates? I am working through similar issues with a 14.5". I've tried GMM 168, 175, various TAPs, etc. I am a relatively new handloader so I tried Scenar 155's and I managed to get about .7 MOA at 365 yards with one group so I'm going to keep working that. Otherwise it's usually around 1.2+ MOA. I have sent it back twice, the first time they agreed it wouldn't group and "changed the barrel" (I didn't mark it so I have no idea). Same performance so I sent it back again (my dime again), no comms from them but it showed up a couple weeks later with an unmarked shot target and not a word written anywhere. I have a GAP10 and a few other impingment guns, I do okay with those. Maybe it's me not knowing how to drive a piston but I don't think so.
 
Anyone else have troubles with the BCG getting stuck in the upper? Yes, mortaring, cleaning, oiling, brushing etc., but I am GINGERLY INSERTING THE BCG, and after putting the two pins in.... Same thing, no pull back possibility of the charging handle.
 
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