The 6mmBR is widely regarded as one of the most accurate cartridges around , but since mag feeding with it looks iffy at best, what is the most accurate mag fed cartridge? This is just for target shooting only, at 100 - 600 yard max.
Phil
Phil
- Thread starter Phil3
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You're really opening a can of worms with this one but I'll throw in my vote. I personally feel like the x47 Lapua family of cartridges and the creedmoor's are the coolest mag fed capable designs. 30 degree shoulder, longer necks, small primer pockets that can last 20+ loads (lapua). Are either of them more accurate than anything from the 308 family of cases? Probably not. Pick whatever case you like the most and roll with it.
6mmBR isn't the "most accurate." It has great "ballistic performance" (i.e., low wind drift and drop) for its level of recoil. If precision rifle shooters could get it to feed reliably from a magazine, it would have prolific use.
If you go to the sticky thread, "what the pros use" you'll notice that 6.5CM, 260Rem, 243 Win and 6XC top the list. I've been reading that 6CM is starting to make inroads also. Within these chamberings there are adv/disadv that have been discussed at length. If you reload, it doesn't really matter what you go with.
Do not confuse "ballistic performance" for accuracy. Accuracy is being able to hit the target you're aiming at. Hitting the same point repeatedly is precision.
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If you want good ballistic performance, the tradeoffs are usually high recoil or short barrel life. The cartridges above (e.g., 6.5 CM) provide acceptable barrel life (better than 6mm) and moderate to low recoil for great ballistic performance.
308 Win, for example, gives you great barrel life, has a tremendous selection of match grade ammo and reloading data available, moderate recoil, but is on the lower end of the ballistic performance spectrum.
If you go to the sticky thread, "what the pros use" you'll notice that 6.5CM, 260Rem, 243 Win and 6XC top the list. I've been reading that 6CM is starting to make inroads also. Within these chamberings there are adv/disadv that have been discussed at length. If you reload, it doesn't really matter what you go with.
Do not confuse "ballistic performance" for accuracy. Accuracy is being able to hit the target you're aiming at. Hitting the same point repeatedly is precision.
Google Image Result for http://dl.clackamas.cc.or.us/ch104-01/precision%20vs%20accuracy%20slides_Page_6.jpg
If you want good ballistic performance, the tradeoffs are usually high recoil or short barrel life. The cartridges above (e.g., 6.5 CM) provide acceptable barrel life (better than 6mm) and moderate to low recoil for great ballistic performance.
308 Win, for example, gives you great barrel life, has a tremendous selection of match grade ammo and reloading data available, moderate recoil, but is on the lower end of the ballistic performance spectrum.
6.5x47 feeds awesome just my 2 cents
Based on my experience of owning a few dozen or so calibers on factory chambering the 222 the 223 .243 a 308 the 300 win mag the 6mm Remington is accurate as well.
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I am after a tight group that is centered on what I am aiming at. From the link you provided, that would be "high precision" and "high accuracy". From what I have understood, the 6mmBR and its variants are hard to beat, other than some specialized rounds like 6PPC, etc. I have shot a 308 a few times, and personally do not care for the recoil. I do not need great terminal ballistics, as the distances I am shooting at are short. 100 yards predominately, 200 yards on occasion, 300 yards very rarely, and 600 maybe never.
Phil
Are you looking for a wildcat or a factory chambering?
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bingo!!!!!
I vote 6.5 x 47L. I love shooting that round.
It's a dream to load for, brass last forever, and it shoots the 123-130 grain bullet well.
Of course, my experience with a lot of calibers is limited.
It's a dream to load for, brass last forever, and it shoots the 123-130 grain bullet well.
Of course, my experience with a lot of calibers is limited.
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A 223 is a good round, but think many would say it is no match for a 6mmBR or some other rounds in the 100 - 600 yard range. I am looking for the smallest groups in the X possible, while still being mag fed. I would also consider a wildcat cartridge, depending on how hard it would be to reload for. I also like the 6.5 x 47, but not sure how well it fares against something like the 6mmBR. I know it has more recoil.
Phil
Phil
308 is field proven
Precision and accuracy have little to do with the cartridge you shoot. Accuracy comes from good shooting technique, a quality barrel, a properly aligned scope. Precision comes from good shooting technique and quality ammunition (low ES and SD).
If you want to get all your shots in the X ring then you need a match grade barrel, good ammo, and confidence in your shooting ability (including knowing how to read the wind and place a cold bore shot). The caliber you use to get there is merely an afterthought after you've met these other requirements.
I agree with [MENTION=45618]turbo54[/MENTION] that a 223 is perfect choice for your stated ranges: match grade ammo is available, lots of reloading data (lapua brass too), wonderful barrel life, reliable magazine feeding, very low recoil. It has the ballistics of a 308 and low terminal energy, but for ranges of 300 yds or less it will do fine, esp. if you stick with bullets >70gr.
The 6mm rounds will work too, but come with less convenience. If you think you want a 6mm, I recommend either a 243 Win or a 6XC.
If you want to get all your shots in the X ring then you need a match grade barrel, good ammo, and confidence in your shooting ability (including knowing how to read the wind and place a cold bore shot). The caliber you use to get there is merely an afterthought after you've met these other requirements.
I agree with [MENTION=45618]turbo54[/MENTION] that a 223 is perfect choice for your stated ranges: match grade ammo is available, lots of reloading data (lapua brass too), wonderful barrel life, reliable magazine feeding, very low recoil. It has the ballistics of a 308 and low terminal energy, but for ranges of 300 yds or less it will do fine, esp. if you stick with bullets >70gr.
The 6mm rounds will work too, but come with less convenience. If you think you want a 6mm, I recommend either a 243 Win or a 6XC.
I'm unsure who builds a repeater in a 6BR from the sound of it that's you're best choice for all given ranges mentioned. If you can find a .243 with an 8 twist barrel that would be my next choice. The 223 will suffice but at 600 yards if you're wanting to nail center target on a regular basis that just won't happen. I have no input on the 6x47 or the 6.5x47. Another option is a 6.5x284 but barrel life is short over the calibers I do suggest. Overall you're best bet is a 6 BR Now for a wildcat you can't go wrong with a 6 Dasher or the .243 AI in an 8 twist barrel. Easy load for good brass and bullet selection.
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I fully recognize the importance of shooting technique, quality barrel, properly aligned scope, quality ammo, etc. Believe me, my practice, advice from other shooters, high end expensive gun components, bedding, tedious scope alignment, Forster Co-Ax press, Sinclair measurement tools, higher end dies, Lapua brass, Bench Rest thoroughness on reloading process and techniques, etc, are ensuring maximum accuracy and precision for whatever round is fired. But, I don't believe there is any denying that some cartridges are inherently more accurate than others and don't believe choice of cartridge is in the realm of an "afterthought". This is not to deny the importance of all else mentioned, but I can't find anyone that with all else being equal, would say the 223 is the equal of a 6mmBR. My AR15 can shoot a 223 in a .25" 5 shot group at 100 yards off a bipod, but want better, the best, that can be achieved at these shorter distances, out of a bolt action mag fed weapon. If the 223 is the #1 caliber for that, then OK.
Phil
Phil
You started out really well here and ended with a big flop well almost at least you didn't say your AR can shoot 1/4" all day long. I'm sure you may have lucked out on a 1/4" group once in a while thru your rifle but the 223 is no equal to a 6 BR and thus far the most inherit accurate case would be the PPC cartridge.
I won't take anything away from the AR I have one that's capable of shooting 1/4" also but not off a bipod and not consistently. I also own a 6 BR and I know the 223 does not hold water to this cartridge on and overall avg out to 1000 yards.
To the original poster I stand by my recommendations of caliber choices. One other I mentioned but didn't elaborate on is the 308 its very accurate and capable but the recoil leads me away from this cartridge the same for a 300 win mag.
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I won't take anything away from the AR I have one that's capable of shooting 1/4" also but not off a bipod and not consistently. I also own a 6 BR and I know the 223 does not hold water to this cartridge on and overall avg out to 1000 yards.
To the original poster I stand by my recommendations of caliber choices. One other I mentioned but didn't elaborate on is the 308 its very accurate and capable but the recoil leads me away from this cartridge the same for a 300 win mag.
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Most accurate? In what regard, there seems to be several schools of thought recently on what is accurate and what is not. For example, "it hits the steel most of the time, must be real accurate", is one school of thought. There is another that looks at the Scores based on real holes in paper, in competition. As your original post placed a general limit to 600 yards, the list of winning (paper targets, real scores) rounds is long, it kinda comes down to the one you shoot best, for some, lowering recoil will increase there average scores- very quickly, etc. There are a lot of rounds that can be eliminated by studying what is winning for others. For example: a 300 WM is a very accurate-winning 1000+yard round, but the recoil and low tube life would make it a bad choice for 1-600 yard shooting. The 223 does very well at these ranges, and is the cheapest to shoot, however; the 6BR, from start to finish is easier to get to shoot well, from magazine length rounds. The other advantage is the 6BR has the advantage of higher BC bullets, an entire industry of handmade 6mm bullets available, etc. My vote for a standard caliber would be the 6BR, but there are many others in the same category-think about tube life, brass quality, good bullet availability, in short "shootability". If you are constantly "making" brass, as you've gone to a none standard caliber, the time spent could be time shooting.....just saying.
I've returned to this post, to add the 6BR has been winning some fairly impressive contests, with factory ammo. The following is from Accurateshooter.com:
Factory Ammo That Shoots .42 moa at 300m — Impressive Indeed
While you can achieve somewhat higher velocities with custom hand-loaded ammo, we think the factory-loaded match ammo is good enough to win 600yd matches at the club level and that’s saying a lot. Components are top of the line. Brass is excellent as are the bullets. Norma uses moly 105 Berger LTBs while Lapua uses its own 105 Scenars (moly or naked). The Scenar enjoys an edge in BC, because Berger’s length-tolerant-bullet design is a bit shorter to aid feeding from magazine. So the Lapua ammo may work a little better in the wind, but the Norma may have an edge in pure accuracy in steady conditions. Click on this Norma Diamond Line 300m test target. That’s 10 rounds, recorded by an electronic target. The 3.5cm (1.38″) group works out to .42 moa. And check out this Norma 60-round 300m test target. Will your handloads do better than that, even shot from sandbags? Maybe not. Unfortunately, though widely available in Europe, this Norma ammo is very hard to obtain right now in the United States.
I've returned to this post, to add the 6BR has been winning some fairly impressive contests, with factory ammo. The following is from Accurateshooter.com:
Factory Ammo That Shoots .42 moa at 300m — Impressive Indeed
While you can achieve somewhat higher velocities with custom hand-loaded ammo, we think the factory-loaded match ammo is good enough to win 600yd matches at the club level and that’s saying a lot. Components are top of the line. Brass is excellent as are the bullets. Norma uses moly 105 Berger LTBs while Lapua uses its own 105 Scenars (moly or naked). The Scenar enjoys an edge in BC, because Berger’s length-tolerant-bullet design is a bit shorter to aid feeding from magazine. So the Lapua ammo may work a little better in the wind, but the Norma may have an edge in pure accuracy in steady conditions. Click on this Norma Diamond Line 300m test target. That’s 10 rounds, recorded by an electronic target. The 3.5cm (1.38″) group works out to .42 moa. And check out this Norma 60-round 300m test target. Will your handloads do better than that, even shot from sandbags? Maybe not. Unfortunately, though widely available in Europe, this Norma ammo is very hard to obtain right now in the United States.
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I don't know what the "big flop" references, but no matter. I only mentioned the AR to show the other poster I invested heavily into the things he said were so important (shooting technique, rifle, ammo, scope, etc.), and that it has paid off by the rifle performance. The AR has a heavy Krieger barrel, Geiselle trigger, 6 - 24 x 50 Bushnell scope, etc., all in an effort to achieve maximum accuracy. With me driving, I can not make the AR shoot 1/4" consistently, although my daughter gets closer than I. Yes, the 308 has too much recoil and I think it would affect my shooting performance. I may consider the 243 since the barreled action I want to get is available in that caliber. The 243 tends to burn through barrels as I understand it, so once it is done, I can get a 6mmBR barrel.
The .243 isn't the barrel burner as some portrays it to be especially shooting heavier bullets. If you push the 55 Gran pills down it at super hot loads yes it'll burn a good barrel up. If you can get an 8 twist barrel that's your best luck.
isn't it funny how a young kid can sit behind a rifle and outshoot us for the most part? Same goes for women as well.
Good luck on what you decide on.
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isn't it funny how a young kid can sit behind a rifle and outshoot us for the most part? Same goes for women as well.
Good luck on what you decide on.
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The most accurate is subjective to say the least, but there is something to be said of any cartridge with a 30-35 degree shoulder, now that my 260Rem barrel is a tomato stake I will be switching to 6.5 Creedmoor, while you can't beat the ease of making 260Rem brass from a number of different calipers, the jackass work has been done in making Creedmoor brass, so all posts on the subject are null n void. Unless we are talking about about FTR, a 30 to 35 degree shoulder is pretty much ruling the record books in just about any rifle shooting discipline, so choose one and rock on!
After a post like that, it seems you should be telling us which cartridge is best.
I know exactly zip.shit about bench rest, and the knowledge base here on the snipers hide is predominantly tactically-oriented. Perhaps a different forum would yield you better answers.
Yes, the shooting performance of my daughter and wife is disturbingly good. Thanks for the info on the 243. I am looking at it more closely and barrel life is a consideration. - Phil
Nah. I've no idea what is the most accurate mag fed round for 100 - 600 yards. Nothing I have said would suggest I would know that. I wrote the post in this forum specifically because it is a tactical forum, using mag fed rifles, which Bench Rest people generally do not. The question is simple. Which mag fed round is generally accepted to offer the best accuracy (small groups in the X) at 100 to out as far as 600 yards. I know there may be multiple choices, and just trying to make an informed decision. So far, a 243 may work and am looking at the 6.5 x 47 but not sure about recoil on that one. A muzzle brake could help.
Phil
Nearly any rimless or even belted cartridge is capable of higher precision than the rifle, and particularly the shooter...especially for the type of engagemens most of the shooters on this forum are involved in...
243, 6xc, creed, 260........300wm........338LM (I've skipped over at least 5000 chamberings, here)
Any and all of the above will print tiny groups at and inside 600 yards if the ammo is good, rifle excellent, and shooter capable.
6 br feeds pretty easy in my savage/cbi/aics Frankenstein rifle. Modified a 308 10 rd mag with an AR follower ak spring cutdown, and a delrin spacer made to fit at the rear of the mag. Feeds slicker then shit. 105 hybrids at 2920 fps is wicked for such a small case, 29.5 gr h4895 . Best group to date is a .422" 20 shot@100, prone with bipod and beanbag.
Phil3
If you can use a center stack magazine the 6BR and 6 Dasher feed fine and are currently the king of the hill out to 600 yards and the Dasher takes you to 1,000 with no worries.
You are welcome to shoot both this sunday at Circle S Ranch out of two rock.
Lynn
If you can use a center stack magazine the 6BR and 6 Dasher feed fine and are currently the king of the hill out to 600 yards and the Dasher takes you to 1,000 with no worries.
You are welcome to shoot both this sunday at Circle S Ranch out of two rock.
Lynn
Hi Lynn,
I am slowly finding people who have had some success through various approaches, including single stack mags. I definitely want the 6mmBR, it is my choice for next rifle. Thanks for the invite but this Sunday is Father's Day, so have stuff going on. Would like to come out at another time.
Phil
The cartridge isn't what makes them accurate. It's the barrel, the smith, and the ammo.
Some cartridges are just easier to make ammo for; to tune.
For a field gun, your not going to out shoot a quality rifle.
Some cartridges are just easier to make ammo for; to tune.
For a field gun, your not going to out shoot a quality rifle.
I would think the Round only brings as much to the equation as Barrel, Bedding, action,Smith, Optics and ammo do.
The PPC and BR case design is optimized for accuracy. There is a reason all the group records at 600 is BR dasher, not 260,creedmoor or x47l. That is just fact. If the other cartridges are equal in terms of accuracy prove the record holders wrong. In terms of sheer accuracy, not power,drift, or drop, the 6 br/dasher is a force to be reckoned with from 300-1k. Under 300, the PPC or talldog is superior. For mag fed, i think dasher's square shoulder would be tough to make work. My Remington would never feed right from ai mags. Tried several mag modifications, never could get the 6 br to feed 100%. My savage was easy to get it running right. I think a lot of the difference between the actions are mag position to feed ramp and the length and angle of feed ramp. On the savage the mag is located farther back and the feedramp is longer and (flatter) than Remington.
The Eliseo Rifle Chassis in 6mm BR is the system you are looking for. Pick an excellent gunsmith to put it together for you.
Competition Machine, Inc. website link - Got X Ring
Phil3,
I know this thread is old but worth responding to. For shear accuracy, you have to look at the best components available for a combined package. Right now, most of the focus is on 6mm because there are so many components for it. The barrels being produced are the best, the bullets are optimized, smiths are familiar with the cartridges they use for both bench and tactical competitions. 6.5's are proving great long range cartridges so focus on those components is growing. .30 cal has always had the lions share of attention, but to get to the optimal long range components, the factors all change for the negative to the shooter. So, it's losing some favor. The 7mm's are making some inroads back, but they tend to go back to heavier recoil like the .30's.
Now look at the other facets of accuracy. One big one is recoil. You aren't going to continue to shoot super tight groups getting your ass kicked all over the bench/shooting mat/hillside. Another advantage of the smaller, less recoiling cartridges is they save on barrel life because of less powder. Because of that, they're also more efficient. Meaning you can get near the velocities of cartridges that hold 20 more grains than the compact ones. So, with a perfectly tuned little cartridge, you are getting nearly what you do blowing that much more powder downrange.
So, that said, it would put you into the full base (12mm/.473") cartridge of reduced size from a .308 based case. .243 is too big, 6XC, 6CM, 6BR and improved variants of each of these meet the criteria. You could go the 6.5 variants of these cases but you face a little more recoil and therefore might want to stay in the 6mm's. But, any one of those cartridges in a precision worked rifle will give you all the needed accuracy.
Just for the record, no one has ever beaten the .009" that McMillan shot back in '73 with a .222 Rem.
I know this thread is old but worth responding to. For shear accuracy, you have to look at the best components available for a combined package. Right now, most of the focus is on 6mm because there are so many components for it. The barrels being produced are the best, the bullets are optimized, smiths are familiar with the cartridges they use for both bench and tactical competitions. 6.5's are proving great long range cartridges so focus on those components is growing. .30 cal has always had the lions share of attention, but to get to the optimal long range components, the factors all change for the negative to the shooter. So, it's losing some favor. The 7mm's are making some inroads back, but they tend to go back to heavier recoil like the .30's.
Now look at the other facets of accuracy. One big one is recoil. You aren't going to continue to shoot super tight groups getting your ass kicked all over the bench/shooting mat/hillside. Another advantage of the smaller, less recoiling cartridges is they save on barrel life because of less powder. Because of that, they're also more efficient. Meaning you can get near the velocities of cartridges that hold 20 more grains than the compact ones. So, with a perfectly tuned little cartridge, you are getting nearly what you do blowing that much more powder downrange.
So, that said, it would put you into the full base (12mm/.473") cartridge of reduced size from a .308 based case. .243 is too big, 6XC, 6CM, 6BR and improved variants of each of these meet the criteria. You could go the 6.5 variants of these cases but you face a little more recoil and therefore might want to stay in the 6mm's. But, any one of those cartridges in a precision worked rifle will give you all the needed accuracy.
Just for the record, no one has ever beaten the .009" that McMillan shot back in '73 with a .222 Rem.
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