NRL22 takes a small fee per shooter when MD turns in scores, a few dollars, seems that PRS would be similar.
PRS Talk Mulligans?....Really
- Thread starter backsideof45
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Our local South Texas club does mulligans but the money goes back to the members at the end of the year for a massive lobster and steak dinner in addition to door prizes. It was an amazing party and a wonderful idea.
I have lost interest in 2 day matches somewhat. Midpack guys like myself just paying for the top 10 and a grand to train with some amazing shooters. Not sure anymore. Local matches provide a pretty good training ground.
I have lost interest in 2 day matches somewhat. Midpack guys like myself just paying for the top 10 and a grand to train with some amazing shooters. Not sure anymore. Local matches provide a pretty good training ground.
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It’s pretty similar. NRL and PRS main revenue is basically marketing for sponsors.
It’s not a great business model as far as becoming a standardized organization because you’re basically relying on random MD’s all over the country doing their own thing.
But it is the model that’s being used.
I'm not above hard-sledging the RO or even MD for a mistake I made, and am very clear about it. Anyone who has shot with me knows this.
With that said, I own it as my mistake, and never reshoot it. I did once, just to fuk with one of the other competitors and RO. Basically, when I screw up, I use it as a reason to berate someone.
All of my matches I heavily berate people (it's actually all in good fun, only because I don't take anything seriously, PRS is a fun stress reliever for me).
Err ? Too fuking bad. He can be upset, argue, blow off steam or whatever. But you screw a stage, that's on you. Hell, I had my bolt de-cock on me once mid stage. Pulled bolt out, recocked, cycle checked, mag in, finished the stage.
If you actively remove safety equip at a range, you would be heavily mocked at the least, or kicked off for the day at worst.. then heavily mocked.
PRS does already. Top this, top that, NATO, open, production. It's crap.
You are clueless. Mulligans have always been allowed and have been done in the past, but were always pretty uncommon. The only change that might be made is to not allow them any more. So what are you going on about?As if it can't be any more stupid, now I get a survey asking about mulligans.
Listen, I know everyone pulls a bad shot or has a bad stage, but let's get real.
You're an adult.....and should act like one. If you need to somehow be compensated for your lack of ability in this game, go do something else. Like golf.
Everyone now should have already moved to a 20+lb 6mm variant with a quality optic and ballistic software and near scientific level of reloading capabilities if you're participating in this game. So really the only true variable is you (and a bit of wind).
So if you wiff a stage or shot.... OWN IT.....and move on. No one cares, get over it.
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If they've always been allowed, then why is the question being posed? Below is the question being asked. So clue me in on my cluelessness.
Please submit your vote below regarding the allowance of Mulligans in sanctioned PRS matches. Your vote will help inform PRS Rules Committee members. Sanctioned matches are all matches one and two day's that count for PRS points. *
Mulligans should NOT be allowed in PRS Sanctioned matches.
Mulligans should be allowed in PRS sanctioned matches.
I am undecided.
Somebody brought it up on Facebook a week or two ago and it brought it to many people's attention that one or two matches in the country did it. I think the question is sent out to simply find out if a majority of the PRS membership wants mulligans outlawed. I assume the majority will say to outlaw mulligans in 2 day matches and the rules committee will act accordingly. How is this even noteworthy to anyone at all?
I shot at one of the matches in the northwest that did this last year. It was at Parma, Idaho. It wasn't a big deal at all. You had to call out immediately when you finished a stage that you were going to use your mulligan and then immediately reshoot. In PRS everyone's scores are relative to the highest score at the match so it really does not help someone at that particular match score more. It could actually cause people at the match to score less. If the average mulligan helped shooters pickup 2 more hits, but the winner picked up 4 more hits when he shot his mulligan then it lowered the average score for the match.
They are considering outlawing them, not making them legal. They are already legal.It's insane they are even considering this
It's already pretty bad how contrived PRS has become, but this is really watering it down further. I can't imagine the most competitive and top shooters in the PRS would actually want this? This would really cheapen any competitive spirit around PRS, do many of the inmates in the asylum not see this?
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So how is a "Mulligan" different than a reshoot?
And if Mulligans are legal under the current rules, why don't they appear in the rule book?
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They are considering outlawing mulligans. Mulligans have always been legal. The rules committee will likely outlaw them after the survey.
I personally think they should be allowed in regional matches, but not pro matches.
A mulligan is obviously a reshoot. Did I say otherwise?
Mulligans are legal because they aren't banned by the rule book. It is implied that if something isn't listed as against the rules that it is ok. In general the PRS allows MD's to run their matches however they want and this was just one of those things that 1 or 2 match directors did on the west coast. I think that the reshoot rules that are written in the rule book didn't explicitly say anything about planned mulligans offered by the match director so they were treated differently than the other situations described in the rules as reshoots.
From the current rule book:
3.5.1 Reshoots shall only be permitted in the event of an interruption of the stage that was outside the control of the shooter.
That seems to rule out Mulligans.
This. Right. Here.
Apparently that's not what's been happening for years.
Except that it has been in some regions, just not in others.
And to clarify, I think the dust-up on Facebook was over the 2021 Rimfire series, which was run as a group of regional series, with scores also compiled into a national points race. Some regions allowed Mulligans at matches and others did not. So shooters from some regions had the opportunity to purchase reshoots, and they were being ranked against others who did not.
This was brought to the attention of PRS leadership during the summer but they chose to ignore it and drive on, and then handed out year end awards based on those points standings.
I'm not super familiar with PRS Rimfire. At those matches is the top shooter given 100 points and the rest scaled off of that score?
Yes, that's correct.
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They are not covered under current rules.
Sure (and I don’t necessarily disagree) some will interpret “reshoot” to cover mulligans.
However, PRS clarified that in their opinion, the reshoot rules only cover reshoots for the reasons listed and don’t cover mulligan reshoots.
Considering that PRS is a private company, neither you, I or anyone else gets to define what their rules mean.
So, the argument that the reshoot rule covers mulligans is moot and worthless. It officially does not cover mulligans and they are seeking to clarify the rules going forward via shooter votes.
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They didn’t ignore it actually. The responded to the people who brought it up via emails and phone conversations. At least with the main people complaining.
Those people did not like the response PRS gave them and complained publicly again.
I’m not defending PRS as I don’t agree with everything thing do. But this didn’t happen the way many are claiming.
Thanks for clarifying that. What I've heard is all second hand at best.
And you're right, the PRS is free to do as they please, up to and including ignoring or making up rules, or rewriting them as it suits them.
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I personally look at it like this, this a hobby. Even as competitive as I can get….it’s still a hobby.
Even the most sponsored shooters (not 3 gunners paid to shoot who happen to shoot prs) ain’t making enough money to amount to shit.
And the future outlook just doesn’t lead to anyone being about to make $100k shooting matches anytime soon.
So, while yes I agree mulligans probably shouldn’t be allowed in a “pro” series, I can’t make a living at this without doing many other things. So I don’t care enough to lose my mind over it.
A $10 or $20 mulligan won’t be enough to dissuade more shooters than it attracts. At worst it’s break even as far as bringing/keeping new shooters in.
So, it’s just not worth getting bent out of shape over.
And before someone says “some MD’s still won’t do it so it’s not fair,”…..that’s just how it goes. Some MD’s make a stage or targets too big and people who’d otherwise not hit those targets elsewhere.
Even the most sponsored shooters (not 3 gunners paid to shoot who happen to shoot prs) ain’t making enough money to amount to shit.
And the future outlook just doesn’t lead to anyone being about to make $100k shooting matches anytime soon.
So, while yes I agree mulligans probably shouldn’t be allowed in a “pro” series, I can’t make a living at this without doing many other things. So I don’t care enough to lose my mind over it.
A $10 or $20 mulligan won’t be enough to dissuade more shooters than it attracts. At worst it’s break even as far as bringing/keeping new shooters in.
So, it’s just not worth getting bent out of shape over.
And before someone says “some MD’s still won’t do it so it’s not fair,”…..that’s just how it goes. Some MD’s make a stage or targets too big and people who’d otherwise not hit those targets elsewhere.
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That’s how literally all rules and laws work. Including criminal laws.
Someone has to interpret them. And no one has actually ever asked for this interpretation. Mulligans have been used for years. Hell, the NRL22 National Championship has had mulligans at least two years. And that’s attended by the owners of NRL.
I don’t see anyone losing their minds over that.
What really happened is mulligans were not covered and left up to some MD’s to do or don’t do. Some either don’t believe in them and others may have interpreted “reshoot” but didn’t ask PRS for clarification.
So, now people reached out, didn’t like the answer and kept going with the complaints. Now in the off-season, they are looking to clarify the rules.
Everyone complains when PRS does something and says “they don’t know what shooters want.” Now they are literally asking the shooters to tell them. And somehow people are complaining about that as well.
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Also, if you don’t miss, they can’t beat you with a mulligan. I have a 2nd and 3rd place trophies from Tx Precision Matches Leupold Steel and Fall Classic matches in 2021.
At least one of those I lost first place because someone used a mulligan and got a much better score on a stage.
But, I dropped 9 shots out of 180 shots between those two matches. At least 5 of those 9 were “unforced errors” in my opinion.
So, before I’m gonna lose my shit over mulligans, I’ll be practicing until I’m losing matches I cleaned because someone had a mulligan.
At least one of those I lost first place because someone used a mulligan and got a much better score on a stage.
But, I dropped 9 shots out of 180 shots between those two matches. At least 5 of those 9 were “unforced errors” in my opinion.
So, before I’m gonna lose my shit over mulligans, I’ll be practicing until I’m losing matches I cleaned because someone had a mulligan.
Fair enough.
The survey is absolutely better than not addressing the question to shooters at all.
And the your point about focusing on personal performance is a good one. No argument there.
The survey is absolutely better than not addressing the question to shooters at all.
And the your point about focusing on personal performance is a good one. No argument there.
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Lots of good complaining, reminds me of cancel culture. Instead of whining, why not run your own league?
Actually do something productive other than saying the same things and getting 3 likes from the few people that care.
Ideas and complaints are easy. Running and operating a league to please everyone is a constant endeavor. I promise, your internet whines here will never impact the “game”. Just run your own league and stop complaining about other leagues.
Actually do something productive other than saying the same things and getting 3 likes from the few people that care.
Ideas and complaints are easy. Running and operating a league to please everyone is a constant endeavor. I promise, your internet whines here will never impact the “game”. Just run your own league and stop complaining about other leagues.
Shannon Kay gave a recent interview on the Shooters Mindset podcast where he specifically states that mulligans are permissible under the current rules per match director discretion, and that they are not covered under the section for “re-shoots”. He also gives more history of their usage over the last 10 years.
Perhaps Lowlight or someone else can get Regina Milkovich’s perspective, as a top level shooter and someone who has permitted mulligans at the 2-day TPRC. I doubt anyone in this thread has the credibility she does, and it seems like she has a different opinion than most here.
Personally I dont think it makes a difference, since you can always shoot worse in your second go-around. But overall people are way too wound up over this.
Why is no one mentioning that NRL does it too ?
8m40sec Carson Rutherford does it. (Sorry to call you out, just the example I remembered and quickly found)
8m40sec Carson Rutherford does it. (Sorry to call you out, just the example I remembered and quickly found)
This is the dumbest conversation ever... Spoken by people who likely never shot a match, ever. Who cares. 
No, it's hilarious. This is top-tier "gaming the system". If you are a top ranked shooter, say top-20 in USA, you want every advantage you can get.
I mean, why not just give sighters to people to dial that wind call ?
Should be a new league called P-class. Basically f-class, but with muzzle brakes and no cardigans or flat-caps.
Sighters, whinging, oh oh, and wind flags !!
I mean, why not just give sighters to people to dial that wind call ?
Should be a new league called P-class. Basically f-class, but with muzzle brakes and no cardigans or flat-caps.
Sighters, whinging, oh oh, and wind flags !!
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Let’s be honest. Unless you’re first to shoot a stage (and really, the day unless shooting different directions or very switchy wind)…..
If you don’t have a pretty good wind call already you’re just not paying attention.
F class with sighters and flags is exponentially harder to read wind that any prs type match out there. There’s zero wind sharing info and you won’t get to sit there with a spotter or binos watching where everyone is missing for 10 min before you shoot.
There’s almost zero top shooters complaining about mulligans. Most really couldn’t care. As everyone would get it and it *might* mildly change the top 5 order sometimes.
Just to be clear, incase it's not perfectly obvious, I'm in the "shut up and shoot" and "be less shit" camps. Also, never shot a comp with a Mulligan option. I've had, and seen reshoots, but not via choice.
I couldn't care less about it. I gain places by having fun, nothing more. When people don't have fun, they stress out. I capitolise on that.
I also wear a flat-cap while shooting. Basically to troll people.
When the sport stops being fun for me, I'll go back to what I was doing previously.
PRS needs to be "low stress". New shooters (who I help at local and often national matches in AU) need a low entry point. By this I mean "as easy for them as possible". That doesn't mean a cake-walk stage. It means a stage which doesn't fry their brain. Don't make stages with too many "things" to do.
-Shoot to move on this, run here, baracade off this, hit to move, back over here, 2 shots only on that one, if you hit on first try, then prone for your second shot, back to position 1, but shoot target 2, but it's shoot to move this time. Back to position 2, shoot target 1, full weak side, hit to finish. Compulsory mag change at some point.
That is up to the MD usually. Having a bonkers hard course of fire may benefit certain shooters, as they will get 75-80% of the score, no one cleans it, and the average score is 40-50%.
Run a KYL rack as hit to move, 7 or 8 plates, 12 shots max, and maybe a position they have to choose. The kyl rack is in reverse. Small to large.
There is gonna be some rock star who will clean it. However 75% of the field will only get 50% of the points, and some poor bastard will donut it.
It's hard to write a national rule set around this. Some nugget is gonna make shitty stages which are just unrealistic for new shooters.
I couldn't care less about it. I gain places by having fun, nothing more. When people don't have fun, they stress out. I capitolise on that.
I also wear a flat-cap while shooting. Basically to troll people.
When the sport stops being fun for me, I'll go back to what I was doing previously.
PRS needs to be "low stress". New shooters (who I help at local and often national matches in AU) need a low entry point. By this I mean "as easy for them as possible". That doesn't mean a cake-walk stage. It means a stage which doesn't fry their brain. Don't make stages with too many "things" to do.
-Shoot to move on this, run here, baracade off this, hit to move, back over here, 2 shots only on that one, if you hit on first try, then prone for your second shot, back to position 1, but shoot target 2, but it's shoot to move this time. Back to position 2, shoot target 1, full weak side, hit to finish. Compulsory mag change at some point.
That is up to the MD usually. Having a bonkers hard course of fire may benefit certain shooters, as they will get 75-80% of the score, no one cleans it, and the average score is 40-50%.
Run a KYL rack as hit to move, 7 or 8 plates, 12 shots max, and maybe a position they have to choose. The kyl rack is in reverse. Small to large.
There is gonna be some rock star who will clean it. However 75% of the field will only get 50% of the points, and some poor bastard will donut it.
It's hard to write a national rule set around this. Some nugget is gonna make shitty stages which are just unrealistic for new shooters.
Edit: (semi)pro competitors can't have Mulligan's, only production / new shooters can. The Mulligan score does NOT count on the end of weekend results, it only counts for their category. So if you are in production, and score a 85, but with a Mulligan you get an 88, you "production" score, against other production shooters is 88, however your "overall weekend score, to be entered into the national DB" is 85 ?
No idea, I'm a shooter and sponsor, not a ..... Rules maker.
No idea, I'm a shooter and sponsor, not a ..... Rules maker.
Exactly my thoughts when I first saw this.
Hard to believe this is even being considered
Great set of rules. You run the match and I’ll show up. Just stop talking about it and run a damn match with your rules. That easy. These convos happen 72 times every 6 months.
Incorrect. The NRL22 takes a $35 match fee per month if you submit scores to them, not per shooter fee.
Your club also has to pay a $20 per year registration fee.
In IHMSA we have “alibis.” When a target falls that was not aimed at (and not the target the shooter was shooting at) and it was no fault of the competitor, that competitor gets an opportunity at the end of the round to shoot an extra shot at that target. However, if the competitor hits the wrong target (shooting out of sequence) that IS the shooters fault and he gets a miss at the original target and gets a miss at the target that he shot by mistake.
(An example of an alibi, I shoot a chicken at 50 meters, the chicken spins when hit and hits the next chicken in line, both chickens fall, I get credit for the chicken I shot at. After the round, the second chicken is reset and I get an opportunity to hit that chicken. ).
Again, only when the target falls through no fault of the shooter. PRS rules have a similar provision. In my opinion, This is the Only Reason, to give an extra shot(s)
No good explanation is complete without a story.
Once upon a time, I hit the rail holding the half scale pigs with a 44 magnum at 50 yards. (Standing) Three pigs fell, the one I was aiming at and two I was not aiming at. One pig was to the left of the pig aimed at, I had missed it so it did not count. The pig to the right was considered an alibi and I got to shoot it in front of everyone at the match. I got an applauded when I scored the hit. Never shot that gun in field pistol again.
Final thought…one mulligan leads to two, which leads to three, which leads too……
(An example of an alibi, I shoot a chicken at 50 meters, the chicken spins when hit and hits the next chicken in line, both chickens fall, I get credit for the chicken I shot at. After the round, the second chicken is reset and I get an opportunity to hit that chicken. ).
Again, only when the target falls through no fault of the shooter. PRS rules have a similar provision. In my opinion, This is the Only Reason, to give an extra shot(s)
No good explanation is complete without a story.
Once upon a time, I hit the rail holding the half scale pigs with a 44 magnum at 50 yards. (Standing) Three pigs fell, the one I was aiming at and two I was not aiming at. One pig was to the left of the pig aimed at, I had missed it so it did not count. The pig to the right was considered an alibi and I got to shoot it in front of everyone at the match. I got an applauded when I scored the hit. Never shot that gun in field pistol again.
Final thought…one mulligan leads to two, which leads to three, which leads too……
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There’s also the not so rare occasion when you get less points on your mulligan and every one I’ve ever heard of requires you to keep your second score.
I’ve seen this scenario play out countless times and even done it myself once or twice:
You screw up and drop 2 or 3 on a stage that should be easy clean. So easy you know that it could very well be the difference in winning because every other good shooter probably cleaned it.
You mulligan and have some sort of brain fart and miss or have an equipment malfunction and drop more on the second go around.
Or you use your mulligan on first stage and rest of match don’t have the comfort of knowing you have the mulligan still. If you don’t manage that anxiety, you’ll crack.
Stuff like this happens way more than you’d think.
I’ve seen this scenario play out countless times and even done it myself once or twice:
You screw up and drop 2 or 3 on a stage that should be easy clean. So easy you know that it could very well be the difference in winning because every other good shooter probably cleaned it.
You mulligan and have some sort of brain fart and miss or have an equipment malfunction and drop more on the second go around.
Or you use your mulligan on first stage and rest of match don’t have the comfort of knowing you have the mulligan still. If you don’t manage that anxiety, you’ll crack.
Stuff like this happens way more than you’d think.
I personally don't shoot a match unless I get multiple mulligans, there has to be trophies for 1st - 10th place, and when I shoot groups on paper I always throw out the 2 worst flyers then measure my groups and add 200yds to the distance before posting what I've accomplished on Snipershide...
I shot one of Jake Vibbert’s matches a few years ago in Washington. It was the only match I can remember having a mulligan. I bought the chip and used it. Felt no shame either. This is just a game and I thought it was a fun idea. You had to strategize on weather or not it was worth it to use in a stage where you dropped 3 or 4. Sometimes you think you will do way better if you shoot it again and you actually do worse. I don’t remember how it worked out for me but I do remember that I thought it was an extra little thing that you actually had to think about and strategize. Someone mentioned earlier the KYL. I loved that concept. You had to put your money where your mouth was and suffer the consequences if you took that extra shot and missed. You had to make that decision on the clock and that added an interesting “stresser” I think. I personally wouldn’t have a problem either way it turns out. No one is at an advantage because it is available to everyone. At least the PRS recognized an issue and is asking the members what they want. Isn’t that a good thing?
Maybe we are going at this all wrong. Mulligans are a great way to raise $$$ from those who think $$$ is the solution to their shooting falling short of expectations. Assuming no one is making a living from PRS matches, sell multiple mulligans/shooter/match. Make the cost significant though, maybe $100/mulligan. If it goes well, lower the match fees for cost conscious types like me. Like a previous poster said, if you don’t miss, your competition can have a many reshoots as they want and still won’t beat you.
I hear ya, but I think that's probably the biggest part of the stink about it. I'm in the North East/New England Region and I never even heard of a milligan before. Only reshoots as outlined by the rule book. That's the problem it gave some people an unfair advantage, because it was outlined in the rules or unilaterally known and applied.
Not sure why some are so wound up over this topic. It’s all relative. It everyone has access to a mulligan at a particular match hard to argue how someone is getting an advantage. Half the time the mulligan costs you points or you see the same score.
I like the fact that the funds raised for mulligans always go to some good cause - ROs, 4h, whatever.
I would prefer not to have mulligans at a match. I always buy one when they do but it’s a mind game deciding when to use it.
I like the fact that the funds raised for mulligans always go to some good cause - ROs, 4h, whatever.
I would prefer not to have mulligans at a match. I always buy one when they do but it’s a mind game deciding when to use it.
Water skiing is the only sport that I am aware of where you typically get a second or third chance. The difference, except for championship tournaments, they have two or three rounds. The skier has to start at the beginning at each round and the best round counts as your score, BUT, these tournaments are basically competitions against one’s self to improve or qualify for regional and national championships (exception Record capable tournaments, a skier can qualify for championship tournaments, but also challenge age group and national and possibly world records.). The course is always the same the boat speeds are guaranteed. If the boat is too slow, your pass is thrown out and you have to have to ski it again. If the boat is too fast, the skier has the option of re-skiing the round or accept the score. Of course, boat breakdowns and course issues get an automatic re-ride.
IHMSA also offers re-shoots. it costs and first round score is the only one that counts, except for qualifying to move up a class.
So, my thought, skiing excepted, Issues not the competitor’s fault, get a reshoot. Otherwise…NO extra shots. You get what you pay for, nothing more, nothing less. When you get opportunities to try, try again, you don’t have a competition, you have a practice session.
IHMSA also offers re-shoots. it costs and first round score is the only one that counts, except for qualifying to move up a class.
So, my thought, skiing excepted, Issues not the competitor’s fault, get a reshoot. Otherwise…NO extra shots. You get what you pay for, nothing more, nothing less. When you get opportunities to try, try again, you don’t have a competition, you have a practice session.
Never shot F class but understand they get sighters before they score. Wonder if that is something debated or complained about?
I guess I don’t understand how it makes a match no longer a competition. It just doesn’t seem to be a big deal (at all) to me.
I guess I don’t understand how it makes a match no longer a competition. It just doesn’t seem to be a big deal (at all) to me.
Joke's aside all honesty this is why I haven't shot a match in 5+yrs... Too much arguing, bitching, politics, and I can have just as much fun going to the range with a handful of friends minus the stupidity... But then again as time goes I hate being around people so maybe it's me 
