PRS Talk Mulligans?....Really

[LV Precision]

 

[jcwarrior87]

wow the number of wieners on here is astounding. dont like it? run your own match. that is (was?) the beauty of the PRS is the variety in matches so things dont become stale. thats the reason the NRL was made. they dont like being told what to do.


having a $$ maker to reshoot 1/20 stage (I would say the % of people who shoot a better score is much smaller than most think) is bad???

meanwhile shooting 10 matches and taking best 3 = gud???

lolol hypocrites.


Only change I would make is no matter how many matches you shoot, your 3 scores will be your best score, your worst score, and the avg of all your scores.
(that way the PrS peeps still have reason to shoot more matches to bring the avg up)

Boom progress over night.


GL
DT

It is amazing how many mid level people complain about the most trivial stuff, when there are such bigger issues with in the sport. But then again most people don't see the sport as a whole, only what it does for them. Heaven forbid we look at the sport as a whole and better it for everyone...

 

[Rob01]

 

[D_TROS]

 

[LawnMM]

I just don’t see how the vote was even close. One of the draws to this sport and what’s making it grow so much and the popularity is the semi professionalism.

Of all the shit wrong with the sport this is the thing people are bitching about?

I think if they toss the money to the ROs it's well worth it for those poor bastards that sit around policing everyone since faggots gotta cheat to win instead of just shooting better.

It's a stupid thing to argue about. Personally I think the Mulligans and the 6 rounds for 5 targets kinda stages add a little bit of 'stategery' to the whole thing.

Whatevs. This kinda drama is why the sport is Shoot the matches you want, stop giving money to PR firms, sorry I meant "Series" and get back to basics.

If the match has truly gimmicky shit like chairs on chains, that's a clue. You're at the wrong match.

 

[Aviatorfreak]

Thanks for your contribution to the thread.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

I haven’t read or looked at the updated ruling. Not that it really bothers me either way. Everyone will remain in their respective “pack” location unless their skill level increases or decreases.

However, I’m curious if the regional matches (both centerfire and rimfire) will be under the no mulligan rule?

Because all regional matches consist of is club matches that report to PRS and pay $3/per shooter at the match to cover the labor for scoring/website costs and such.

And most club matches are *not* being fueled by shooters wanting regional points. That’s typically the minority of shooters.

So, it it includes regional/club match stuff, it’s very possible that some MD’s will stop reporting their matches. Which in turn makes the current most popular league smaller. Regardless if you like or hate PRS, the “sport” grows when it grows and vice versa as long as they remain connected.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Okay, I'm WAAAY late to the party here (have been out of town) but wanted to add a note as a "food for thought" since I'm someone who has looked at the scores and statistics of PRS a fair bit.

At matches where mulligans were in play everyone who wanted to buy one did and the limit was 1 mulligan per shooter. If you bombed a stage you could pull out your mulligan and immediately reshoot the stage, then you keep your 2nd score on the stage no matter whether better or worse. The real question is... What do mulligans do to score distribution?

My thinking is that there is an element of skill to using a mulligan to enhance your score. First, you have to strategically use it at the right time... is this stage likely to be your lowest scoring stage? If you reshoot right now what are the odds that your score will be higher? Did everyone else around you score much better or did everyone just get equally wind-screwed? Second, there is some skill to actually being able to improve the score when you decide to reshoot. Can you diagnose why you missed and how to fix it right now in the 30 seconds? What are you going to do differently the second time around? Finally, there is a huge amount of mental toughness required in that moment. You just shot what might be your worst stage of the match, you're flustered, and now you need to perfectly execute the reshoot. This is why you often see people get worse scores on their mulligan.

While there is not data out there for this, I would strongly suspect that if you listed all the shooters who used their mulligan and ranked them based on the number of points they added to their score, on average the more skilled shooters would also be more skilled in "pulling points" out of their mulligan. And if this is true, then the net result is that mulligans would serve as a further separator of score distribution... resulting in LOWER scores on average for anyone who wasn't the winner of the match.

So my suspicion is that mulligans' effect on scores is probably the exact opposite of what people initially thought when they heard about them and raised them as an issue.


Disclosure: I shoot lots of PRS matches in the West where there are mulligans, I have bought mulligans probably about 1/3 of the time when available, and have used about half the time when I bought them. I voted against mulligans... not because of fairness or score distribution, but because I think they slow down match flow and because I prefer to see consistency rewarded - ie. don't mess up in the first place.

This is definitely true. Skilled shooters familiar with mulligans will mostly use them on stages many wouldn’t understand.

The biggest example is the “long range stage” vs something like a traditional prs barricade stage.

Skilled shooters will take their 5/10 or 6/10 on the long range stage and use their mulligan if they get a 7 or 8/10 on prs barricade. Because the odds of doing well on second try are higher and the other skilled shooters will have cleaned it.

Long range mulligans end up keeping same score or dropping points fairly often due to wind and other such things than can hurt you pretty easily on those shots.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

It’s also interesting that many against mulligans also didn’t like the “no gambling” or one point per impact and no loss of points rule.

Being able to take a hail mary shot (that at some matches can be worth as much as 10 points), is huge. Especially if there are multiple stages which allow it.

The arguments in favor of these gambling stages were much the same. “It’s a strategy” “it doesn’t always work in your favor” and “everyone else got the same opportunity.”

One could easily overcome several percentage points of a shooter with more total impacts in just a couple gambles. *That* definitely can influence outcomes far more than a mulligan where it’s typical only a small amount of points regained.

 

[D_TROS]

sorry not sorry. laugh out loud

Regards
DT

 

[LV Precision]

sorry not sorry. laugh out loud

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Regards
DT

Got all the good memes in 1 post....save some for the rest of us!! HAHAHA

 

[LawnMM]

 

[jcwarrior87]

View attachment 7774471

You sir just won the internet for the day!

 

[deersniper]

and using $500 tripods

Lol what poor is using a $500 tripod ?

 

[deersniper]

I put full blame at Shannon Kay's feet. Given his "background", you'd of thought he would despise this sort of thing.

I took a class at k and m he seemed like a no bullshit person. Very disappointing

 

[Feniks Technologies]

I've seen the mulligan thing at club matches. What a pile of shit. I thought, WTF? Glad im not the only one. Makes me feel better about choosing not to spend $4k on a massively impractical rifle to play a game with people wearing jerseys and using $500 tripods to support the rear of their rifle.

Tripods are actually one of the most real life practical things about this game.

We teach .mil and .gov how to use it as forward and rear support.

A tripod has become almost a must have if you work behind a rifle.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

So, will anyone make a push that we need to change the “best three” scores rule now?

Scenario (which is extremely common):

You shoot three matches. You get 100, 100, and an 88.

So next week you spend another $2k in expenses on a match. 85

Next week……90

Next week…….88

Next week…..100

Now you get to forget all those non 100’s and have a perfect 300.


That is the equivalent to a mulligan.



All of a sudden it’s not “fair” to everyone who doesn’t have the time or funds to continue shooting until you have a good day,




If the reason for demanding change to individual match mulligans was to keep it even across the board……everyone should now be demanding a change to this scoring system.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

The difference is that is actually in the rules

So were mulligans until a few days ago. Just like the rules don’t tell you what size to make targets. So you do whatever you want with target size.

You don’t get to tell the PRS organization what their rules govern.

They tell you.

 

[BisSilent]

So, will anyone make a push that we need to change the “best three” scores rule now?

Scenario (which is extremely common):

You shoot three matches. You get 100, 100, and an 88.

So next week you spend another $2k in expenses on a match. 85

Next week……90

Next week…….88

Next week…..100

Now you get to forget all those non 100’s and have a perfect 300.


That is the equivalent to a mulligan.



All of a sudden it’s not “fair” to everyone who doesn’t have the time or funds to continue shooting until you have a good day,




If the reason for demanding change to individual match mulligans was to keep it even across the board……everyone should now be demanding a change to this scoring system.

The difference is that is actually in the rules

 

[BisSilent]

So were mulligans until a few days ago. Just like the rules don’t tell you what size to make targets. So you do whatever you want with target size.

You don’t get to tell the PRS organization what their rules govern.

They tell you.

No they weren't!!! Show me where they were

 

[Feniks Technologies]

No they weren't!!! Show me where they were

Again, just like target size.

The rules don’t govern target sizes. So you can do what you want.

PRS clarified that “reshoots” absolutely did not cover mulligans.

Therefore they were allowed.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Under the current rules, in theory, two match directors (one with two matches) could make their matches with 4ft x 4ft targets on every stage.

And you could have 100+ shooters with perfect 300 point scores going into the finale.

And it’s completely within the rules. Because it doesn’t dictate what should be done on targets.


Obviously this is an extreme example. But that’s how mulligans worked until a few days ago.

 

[BisSilent]

Again, just like target size.

The rules don’t govern target sizes. So you can do what you want.

PRS clarified that “reshoots” absolutely did not cover mulligans.

Therefore they are allowed.

That was until they actually read their rules

I truly do hope that you can get over your loss of mulligans (I could care less about mulligans as long as it was clarified in the rules)

 

[BisSilent]

Under the current rules, in theory, two match directors (one with two matches) could make their matches with 4ft x 4ft targets on every stage.

And you could have 100+ shooters with perfect 300 point scores going into the finale.

And it’s completely within the rules. Because it doesn’t dictate what should be done on targets.


Obviously this is an extreme example. But that’s how mulligans worked until a few days ago.

Valid point!!!!

 

[Feniks Technologies]

That was until they actually read their rules

I truly do hope that you can get over your loss of mulligans (I could care less about mulligans as long as it was clarified in the rules)

No, it wasn’t. They told everyone the rules didn’t cover it.

And then allowed members and match directors vote on a black and white rule. Now they are covered in the rules.

This is the same when a law doesn’t exist making an act criminal.

Its the exact same when an MD doesn’t put something in a stage description like “no tripods.” It was legal at the time and then you clarified it later.



Mulligans don’t affect me at all. They do however affect some MD’s.


But, the fact is, they were absolutely allowed under the rules at the time.

And, if the point is to shore up rules that can have an affect on national rankings……we shouldn’t stop here.

 

[Oldloser]

Under the current rules, in theory, two match directors (one with two matches) could make their matches with 4ft x 4ft targets on every stage.

And you could have 100+ shooters with perfect 300 point scores going into the finale.

And it’s completely within the rules. Because it doesn’t dictate what should be done on targets.


Obviously this is an extreme example. But that’s how mulligans worked until a few days ago.

At least the other sports don't allow you to pay 100 dollars to take a car to the finish line and then lace on your running shoes and sprint across the finish line pumping your arms. We should call them Rosie Ruiz's and not Mulligans.

Venue gaming is as old as competitions are. And is present in all other sports. Until the big dogs who have done the work show up. If someone wants to spend all their time venue shopping, then the MDs and local clubs are glad to take their money. It wont make much of a difference in the end, but maybe, maybe the venue shopper will get better. I suspect they will. Hats off to anyone with that level of dedication. They are probably better off dry firing and spending time analyzing their performance at different ranges. But hey, its their money. I suspect few people can do this long term.

Eventually there will be relative rankings published. Anyone with a stats background and access to the raw stage scores could do that today. Certainly if you are a studious shooter you are doing that for yourself today. Target size + wind conditions + stage type + other scores + your score = performance ranking. Are you better that you were and are you improving relative to others?

There are very well stablished tables on running stats that anyone can look at and I suspect that shooting will eventually be no different.

While I know there is controversy around things, I do have to commend PRS for soliciting input from shooters and the MDs. I think it gives hope for other changes and improvements.

 

[MakeSawdust]

I haven't read this whole thread, but my thought on the whole deal is, who gives a fuck. I don't travel the country and shoot 2 day matches. I might hit a couple that are close. I shoot a piss ant regional series. Many of the people that finish above me just went to more, easier, matches with less competition. In the matches were we shot against each other, I beat them repeatedly, but because I didn't show up to beat them at other matches, they finished higher in the season than I did. The matches where they got spanked because there was competition didn't count as one of their 3 matches. There are also guys in the series that are VERY good and show up and shoot 3 matches and get 295+ points out of those 3 matches. If they shot every match, most of the rest of us would be 3-4 places lower.

The game is what I is. Shoot it and have fun, or don't. If all you want is something to bitch about there are a lot cheaper roads to fulfill the bitching hobby on. I am glad match directors are trying to make things interesting, and I enjoy shooting matches that are different. I also will give input if asked, but try not to just bitch for no reason.

If you want to give input, create relationships with the guys influencing the sport and they will ask for it. If you want to win, get off your ass and get to work. For a few months I worked hard enough to place consistently in the top 5 of the piss ant regional series I shoot. My job, family life, pretty much everything suffered, but shooting well seemed to happen automatically. Obviously, I had to abandon ship and go back to running my life, but I gained a new found respect for the effort expended by the guys and gals that win match after match and year after year.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

At least the other sports don't allow you to pay 100 dollars to take a car to the finish line and then lace on your running shoes and sprint across the finish line pumping your arms. We should call them Rosie Ruiz's and not Mulligans.

Venue gaming is as old as competitions are. And is present in all other sports. Until the big dogs who have done the work show up. If someone wants to spend all their time venue shopping, then the MDs and local clubs are glad to take their money. It wont make much of a difference in the end, but maybe, maybe the venue shopper will get better. I suspect they will. Hats off to anyone with that level of dedication. They are probably better off dry firing and spending time analyzing their performance at different ranges. But hey, its their money. I suspect few people can do this long term.

Eventually there will be relative rankings published. Anyone with a stats background and access to the raw stage scores could do that today. Certainly if you are a studious shooter you are doing that for yourself today. Target size + wind conditions + stage type + other scores + your score = performance ranking. Are you better that you were and are you improving relative to others?

There are very well stablished tables on running stats that anyone can look at and I suspect that shooting will eventually be no different.

While I know there is controversy around things, I do have to commend PRS for soliciting input from shooters and the MDs. I think it gives hope for other changes and improvements.

This sport lets you spend $1000 and do that……

 

[Campguy308]

Lol what poor is using a $500 tripod ?

I know it dammit, i messed that all up.

 

[LV Precision]

I know it dammit, i messed that all up.

If there's one thing I've learned in this "sport", whatever you think is the right price, just add a zero.

 

[MDof2]

View attachment 7774471

It's nearly the same business model as Costco.
Sell product at razor-thin margins. Massive profits in memberships.
Give them a little card and charge them $100 bucks to get in the door.
Fucking brilliant.

 

[LV Precision]

It's nearly the same business model as Costco.
Sell product at razor-thin margins. Massive profits in memberships.
Give them a little card and charge them $100 bucks to get in the door.
Fucking brilliant.

That $100 membership has saved me hundreds-to-thousands of $ in product discount alone, so easily worth it.

 

[MDof2]

That $100 membership has saved me hundreds-to-thousands of $ in product discount alone, so easily worth it.

And what tangible and notable value has a PRS membership given you?
Perhaps that's another thread where we ask rhetorical questions.

 

[LV Precision]

And what tangible and notable value has a PRS membership given you?
Perhaps that's another thread where we ask rhetorical questions.

The tangible value that the membership has given me is extra dollars in my wallet.

 

[LawnMM]

That $100 membership has saved me hundreds-to-thousands of $ in product discount alone, so easily worth it.

Be specific here because you're sounding like you're conflating different things...

If you're talking about discount certs and free merch that's stuff that the companies donated at the request of the match director.

The PRS didn't do shit to make that happen. If you received a code or discount cert WITH your membership then that's something the organization itself arranged.

The organization likes to take credit for a lot of the work being done by the match directors, volunteers, and ROs, when in reality they're just collecting fees and tracking scores.

The NRL does a better job with this by supplying ipads and battery packs for scoring, the mobile repair station, etc. but they aren't perfect either.

The people doing the work are the match directors and their families and friends. It ain't the fuckin PRS.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Be specific here because you're sounding like you're conflating different things...

If you're talking about discount certs and free merch that's stuff that the companies donated at the request of the match director.

The PRS didn't do shit to make that happen. If you received a code or discount cert WITH your membership then that's something the organization itself arranged.

The organization likes to take credit for a lot of the work being done by the match directors, volunteers, and ROs, when in reality they're just collecting fees and tracking scores.

The NRL does a better job with this by supplying ipads and battery packs for scoring, the mobile repair station, etc. but they aren't perfect either.

The people doing the work are the match directors and their families and friends. It ain't the fuckin PRS.

Hes talking about discounts with companies by having a membership number. Euro optic has very good discount rates for prs members

 

[LV Precision]

Be specific here because you're sounding like you're conflating different things...

If you're talking about discount certs and free merch that's stuff that the companies donated at the request of the match director.

The PRS didn't do shit to make that happen. If you received a code or discount cert WITH your membership then that's something the organization itself arranged.

The organization likes to take credit for a lot of the work being done by the match directors, volunteers, and ROs, when in reality they're just collecting fees and tracking scores.

The NRL does a better job with this by supplying ipads and battery packs for scoring, the mobile repair station, etc. but they aren't perfect either.

The people doing the work are the match directors and their families and friends. It ain't the fuckin PRS.

Calm down, they have lots of discount codes available directly on their website.

 

[LawnMM]

Calm down, they have lots of discount codes available directly on their website.

View attachment 7778174

 

[MDof2]

The tangible value that the membership has given me is extra dollars in my wallet.

I get the same value of discount codes and money saved from my local club membership organized by my local MD's at the clubs I belong to and shoot at and respective Range Owners.
There's nothing that I know of that the PRS offers its paying members other than score tracking at a regional and national level. Which, for me, (admittedly, I may be the outlier in this crowd) I couldn't give two shits what my score is against a guy in Florida, Iowa or Washington. Which, I already get point / score tracking at the club level, so I'm perplexed as to what the PRS membership offers that is unique to members. (other than pro/cup matches and events)

 

[LV Precision]

I get the same value of discount codes and money saved from my local club membership organized by my local MD's at the clubs I belong to and shoot at and respective Range Owners.
There's nothing that I know of that the PRS offers its paying members other than score tracking at a regional and national level. Which, for me, (admittedly, I may be the outlier in this crowd) I couldn't give two shits what my score is against a guy in Florida, Iowa or Washington. Which, I already get point / score tracking at the club level, so I'm perplexed as to what the PRS membership offers that is unique to members. (other than pro/cup matches and events)

Cool man, enjoy yourself. Just don’t sign up for PRS matches then, I don’t care.

 

[ma smith]

I get the same value of discount codes and money saved from my local club membership organized by my local MD's at the clubs I belong to ...

PRS allows a much bigger funnel obviously...

Downside of PRS tho is it takes several hundred of gamer gear to really get going,

Good bipod, brake, Game Changer, rear bag, spare DBMs, thats like $400 just to not be a clown.

And were talking-- even if you are using $600 rifle with ammo provided-- that buy in is non trivial.

Now tell the guy he likey to shoot under 30% first match or two.

While you can technically skip that stuff, not really if you want to practice. And you need to practice to not waste ammo.

 

[ma smith]

And because no hits = no feedback, the information content (training value), in my very humble opinion at least, really requires threshold hit ratios 40%-ish...to achieve good training stimuls.

Otherwise i think you training / habituating failure.

This bring us to the crux of the OP issue, how to run a "pro-am" game where the best in the world shoot with the weekend warrior, and each get a good training stimulus (experience) from the process???

64k question for anyone two answer...

Well one way is to sell the guy shooting 35 another 10 shots and hopefully 5 hits... to get a bit more practice... call that a mulligan round or something else...but thats not a bad $20 if your "that guy" that is otherwise wasting his weekend.

On the flipside, from pure training, there are gonna be guys at higher skill levels in the same boat. The guy who's one tricky shot from cleaning a stage, or one type of shot (eg Elr) that ran out of time and didn't get to try.

MDs trying to maximize training stimulus as a value add to their match may find these "mulligan rounds" useful to raising skill levels of the shooters more hollistically.

This topic doesn't have to be conceived of strictly as a broach of Golf etiquette.

 

[MDof2]

Cool man, enjoy yourself. Just don’t sign up for PRS matches then, I don’t care.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trolling, I'm legit asking and trying to constructively have the conversation of what value being a PRS member has? I can and do shoot PRS matches, as well as my local club matches. I paid it last year, shot 12ish matches IIRC, whatever. It's due this year. I'm asking myself, why renew? What did I get out of it last year? A webpage that shows my score? A coupon for a t-shirt? Some discount codes that I already have?
If this is the wrong thread, then no problem. Life moves on. And if it's just a dead point, cool. I get that too. I thought it was a worthwhile sub-topic in the mess of classifications, rules, mulligans, etc. but whatever. No drama.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trolling, I'm legit asking and trying to constructively have the conversation of what value being a PRS member has? I can and do shoot PRS matches, as well as my local club matches. I paid it last year, shot 12ish matches IIRC, whatever. It's due this year. I'm asking myself, why renew? What did I get out of it last year? A webpage that shows my score? A coupon for a t-shirt? Some discount codes that I already have?
If this is the wrong thread, then no problem. Life moves on. And if it's just a dead point, cool. I get that too. I thought it was a worthwhile sub-topic in the mess of classifications, rules, mulligans, etc. but whatever. No drama.

What would you like to see PRS offer the shooter?

Completely serious question. As I’ve been down the road on both sides. What can I provide the shooter and what can someone provide me as a shooter.

The answer is almost always “a challenging and fun match.” Which is completely subjective to the shooter as to what is challenging and fun. Some people love shooting of wobbly shit like a rope and others find that unrealistic and trivial.

I’ve also found that “forcing” some sort of training aspect almost always resulted in less shooters. If they knew I might put a stage in like a rooftop with no bag allowed because “you don’t always have your bag or something may have happened to it,” less people showed up. Even though most everyone who does shoot it always comments it wasn’t nearly as hard as they thought.

Now if you make a pro series that requires a certain skill level, you might find more closely like minded shooters. But then you end up with 50 or less in a game that requires the participation of people with much lesser skill.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

But question remains……

What would you want for your $100 that you don’t get.

And, if you are a business, could you give that to someone for $100?

 

[Rob01]

Cool man, enjoy yourself. Just don’t sign up for PRS matches then, I don’t care.

He can sign up and shoot whatever match he wants. He doesn’t have to be a PRS member.

 

[JBoomhauer]

He can sign up and shoot whatever match he wants. He doesn’t have to be a PRS member.

Exactly,
For regional stuff you pay $40 for the year and $3 a match to keep track of scores. Nobody in this area requires PRS membership to shoot.

People seem to think PRS dictate exactly how each match is run and are bitching about the PRS. They are actually bitching about the individual MDs that put the matches on.

 

[MDof2]

What would you like to see PRS offer the shooter?

A point and classification system that actually works. Uniformity and continuity across regions, and classes.
Exclusivity of being a paid member. Something a little more tangible than a discount code and a t-shirt.
Access to member's only resources, training and facilities.

 

[MDof2]

People seem to think PRS dictate exactly how each match is run and are bitching about the PRS. They are actually bitching about the individual MDs that put the matches on.

100% wrong. I think you're missing my point.
I pay/shoot my local match. Never as a PRS member. Don't need to be one. Local MD's put on kick ass matches. I'm not bitching about him. He's the only one doing the work. Not the PRS.
I'm asking, as a shooter, what value does being a PRS member have?

 

[JBoomhauer]

Same damn match, Don’t like scores kept throughout the season, don’t join.