Gunsmithing  Muzzle breakinz kills accuracy?

LongRifles Inc.

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    A pivotal question that seems to surface often here.

    A recent example of why I don't feel it's true:

    This is a factory Tikka T3 that came in for a brake. It's chambered in 300WSM. The owner complained that the rifle was just miserable to be around. Accuracy was quoted at 1.5" minute of angle at 100 yards.

    DSC_0049-1.jpg


    I agree. 300 WSM's are one of my least favorite cartridges to shoot.

    Recoil was atrocious. So we whipped up one of our brakes for it. Now it's much more civil.


    Here's the group just shot a few moments ago in COR BON's tunnel. Load was a 150 grain Berger with 65 grains of Varget behind it. Loaded to be magazine tolerant. I didn't even bother with goofing around with seating depths.

    DSC_0052-2.jpg



    Here's another one:

    A "Buck Rogers Special" owned by one of our fellow hide members. Same cartridge, but fitted with a Badger Brake. This thing is a pig, so it's pretty good at slowing things down on the shoulder. This is a 5x group with two foulers shot on a clean bore. It then settled right down and started to pound.

    DSC_0054-1.jpg


    DSC_0053-2.jpg


    DSC_0051-1.jpg


    Fitted properly, brakes work. They are loud, but if your recoil intolerant, then it's a viable option.

    Back to work. . .

    C.
     

    Trevor

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    Re: Muzzle breakinz kills accuracy?

    love how the brake was made hand drill, spactula, and duck tape. LOL

    the tikka is the exact set up that i am looking to get 300wsm. did you shoot before and after? how affectve was the brake comparable to similar rifle in 308 after the brake was installed . the group is easily Min of Moose.

    I was told no brake, but i am thinking one would be useful with a 8lbs rig.

    Trevor

     

    Beef_Supreme

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    Re: Muzzle breakinz kills accuracy?

    Often times the opposite is true. People can't sit behind the damn thing and hold it and shoot it without teeth gritting and blinking and holding their head back etc. Then they complain about poor accuracy. Once the break tames the recoil lion, and it doesn't hurt them, they can settle down and shoot it more to it's potential.
    I think a lot of 'breaks make poor accuracy' are 'breaks installed poorly.'
     

    wildcats

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    Re: Muzzle breakinz kills accuracy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A pivotal question that seems to surface often here.

    A recent example of why I don't feel it's true:

    This is a factory Tikka T3 that came in for a brake. It's chambered in 300WSM. The owner complained that the rifle was just miserable to be around. Accuracy was quoted at 1.5" minute of angle at 100 yards.

    DSC_0049-1.jpg


    I agree. 300 WSM's are one of my least favorite cartridges to shoot.

    Recoil was atrocious. So we whipped up one of our brakes for it. Now it's much more civil.


    Here's the group just shot a few moments ago in COR BON's tunnel. Load was a 150 grain Berger with 65 grains of Varget behind it. Loaded to be magazine tolerant. I didn't even bother with goofing around with seating depths.

    DSC_0052-2.jpg



    Here's another one:

    A "Buck Rogers Special" owned by one of our fellow hide members. Same cartridge, but fitted with a Badger Brake. This thing is a pig, so it's pretty good at slowing things down on the shoulder. This is a 5x group with two foulers shot on a clean bore. It then settled right down and started to pound.

    DSC_0054-1.jpg


    DSC_0053-2.jpg


    DSC_0051-1.jpg


    Fitted properly, brakes work. They are loud, but if your recoil intolerant, then it's a viable option.

    Back to work. . .

    C.

    </div></div> The Buck Rogers Special is missing a (bolt knob special)
     

    azimutha

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    Re: Muzzle breakinz kills accuracy?

    Can you put a brake on my .22? It's really killing me. I mean, I cry sometimes when I see the bruising in the mirror.
     

    azimutha

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    Re: Muzzle breakinz kills accuracy?

    I ordered the 1 gallon bottle, threw out my .22 and bought a .460 Weatherby (no brake). Thanks Beef!
     

    wildcats

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    Re: Muzzle breakinz kills accuracy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will,

    I'll get it 1st thing in the am. Dern IT. Forgot about that.
    smile.gif


    C.</div></div> Np problem Chad,
    Rifles looks great.
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: Muzzle breakinz kills accuracy?

    I think that the braking action should not affect accuracy, so long as the brake doesn't have any obvious problems, like bullet strikes.

    I think that the mass of the brake may affect accuracy by altering barrel harmonic frequency. There is a chance that the brake's mass will be such that the altered frequency is still compatible with barrel transit time, but that is very hit-or-miss, and probably a lot more miss than hit.

    Generally, whenever I hang a mass out at the end of the barrel, I do at least a rudimentary load development cycle to see if the load requirements have altered. Usually they have, and sometimes the load development will achieve better accuracy than before the mass was added.

    This can be because the original load development was only partially successful, or may be due to added mass making harmonic frequencies lower, which should result in a longer time window where bore transit time can be matched to muzzle swing(i.e. the sweet spot gets bigger related to charge weight).

    I have done a bunch of harmonic barrel tuning experimentation, and I no longer believe tuners can be relied upon with impunity on a centerfire rifle. They can achieve exquisite accuracy, but that accuracy is usually missing the next time out. I think that when accuracy is that precise, the margins that allow it to exist at all become very slim, and any environmental discrepancy between shooting sessions can be enough to upset the balance. I lack the time, resources, and will to clarify thus further.

    I suspect that the success of rimfire tuners may hinge on the much smaller force and motion magnitudes that the rimfire cartridge generates.

    Greg
     

    LongRifles Inc.

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    Re: Muzzle breakinz kills accuracy?

    I used to fuss with tuners alot. In smallbore they seem to run on this odd cycle of where people think they are the chit, then they piddle out only to return yet again years later.

    The trouble with tuner's in smallbore is if you change ANYTHING you have to start over. Guard screw torque, sight bases, scopes, ammo lots, etc. It all matters. Smallbore is quite a bit different from highpower. The bullet is traveling roughly 1/3rd the speed of a CF cartridge-Least any CF cartridge used in a high performance application. That means it spends about 3x times longer in the barrel. Lots more time to influence the end result. One principle reason why dedicated competitive shooters
    often train with a SB gun in the winter or off season. It makes you hold harder because its less forgiving.

    Go shoot an english match once and prepare to be humbled.
    smile.gif



    In centerfire I've never really understood the fascination with tuners. You can do the same thing by altering the load. Take a 12" ruler and clamp it to a table so that 11" are hanging in space.

    Now blip it with a finger and watch it wiggle. There are two points where the thing isn't moving. Where it momentarily stops to change direction at the top/bottom of its cycle. Barrels are no different. The "sweet spot" everyone talks about is when the bullet leaves the crown at this transition point. Bullet weight, seating depth, charge weight, powder selection, etc can all be used to tailor this to achieve best accuracy. A rotating gear shift knob dangling off the end of your barrel isn't required.

    Last, altering "harmonics. . .etc"

    I have to challenge this somewhat and in doing so I'm contradicting my above statement. Facts based on eye witness accounts and years of experience however speak volumes over internet focus groups.

    Go to Camp Perry and watch the Long Range portion of the event. First you shoot a Palma, then "Any/Any". Often shooters are using their palma rifles as Any/Any as well. (that means any sight/any cartridge (up to 338)

    What you don't see is a bunch of fretting over harmonics when the ladder sight comes off the front of the barrel. Anyone familiar with a ladder sight knows that if anything "should" have an effect on bullet flight/impact a ladder sight would qualify. They are big and very strange looking to those first looking at them.

    Yet the rifles magically shoot just fine.

    I've yet to hear of a shooter having a load for his palma sight that suddenly switches to a different load when he/she peels the sights off and sticks a scope on the thing and I've been around competitive shooting in one capacity or another since I was 19 years old.

    Maybe its all the sighters that allows the shooter to practice the ancient "Bullshito" art of magically alter his heartbeat to compensate for the harmonic shift or change in amplitude from the sight coming off/going back on. I just resort to my Ouija board for guidance.
    smile.gif


    (My highly modified Creemore sports shooting stool for highpower that I've had for about 15 years.)


    DSC_0064.jpg


     

    James Walker

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    Re: Muzzle breakinz kills accuracy?

    I'm building up a Mark V Weatherby actioned Lilja barrelled 338 win mag but will move to re chambering it in 40mm Borfors once MY testimax gallon jug comes in by mail...

    Thanks for posting that, you just can't beat good satire!!

    cheers

    James
     

    Jeff in TX

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    Re: Muzzle breakinz kills accuracy?

    Funny thing about muzzle brakes, some folks can shoot with them some like me can't. I had one on a rifle and accuracy went right out the window until my buddy shot the rifle. It was a tac driver for him with or without the brake and only a tac driver for me without.

    My buddy decided to do a little experiment and he videotaped me shooting my rifle and couple of his with brakes. In super slow motion I found out I have a built in flinch we guess due to the excessive noise and blast being vented back towards me. So I gave up trying to shoot a brake. I assume I'm not the only one who may have that issue. Just a thought on brakes when they may not work for some.
     

    HPLLC

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    Re: Muzzle breakinz kills accuracy?

    I had a .300 Win Mag once that had a trimline brake on it. The gunsmith was a local Gander mountain guy who formerly worked for the USAMTU.

    The rifle would typically shoot 3 round groups about .18"-3/8"CTC. I didn't shoot 5's or 10's because I was 18 and worked for $5.45 an hour.

    It was a bedded Winchester 70 pre/64 style CRF in an HS stock- OEM barrel.

    I was pretty happy with it, but really wanted a gun that had a cool McMillan Stock and a picatinny rail instead of std dovetail rings etc.

    I'm not going to say it was stupid to sell it, but I've wished I didn't more than once.
     

    jasonahull

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    Re: Muzzle breakinz kills accuracy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Never shot it before, but I can tell you that after shooting several light hunter configured 300wizzems that it's not a whole lot of fun.

    Rifle is much more civil now.

    C. </div></div>


    One of my buddies had a tikka 300mag, weighed a hair over 6 pounds with a scope. He shot 180's. That thing was not fun to shoot.
     

    Goin'Hot

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    Re: Muzzle breakinz kills accuracy?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeff in TX</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny thing about muzzle brakes, some folks can shoot with them some like me can't. I had one on a rifle and accuracy went right out the window until my buddy shot the rifle. It was a tac driver for him with or without the brake and only a tac driver for me without.

    My buddy decided to do a little experiment and he videotaped me shooting my rifle and couple of his with brakes. In super slow motion I found out I have a built in flinch we guess due to the excessive noise and blast being vented back towards me. So I gave up trying to shoot a brake. I assume I'm not the only one who may have that issue. Just a thought on brakes when they may not work for some.
    </div></div>

    I developed a "brake flinch" on my 338 Egde with a Fat Bastard brake. I ended up putting a heavy ass Shark Jaws can on it and eventually worked through it. I'm back to the brake now and shooting fine.