Advanced Marksmanship Muzzle recoils to left.

SnkBit

SnkBit

Sergeant
Minuteman
Dec 10, 2009
212
31
Amarillo, TX.
#1
I'm getting straight back behind the rifle, shoulders appear to be square, gently preloading the bipod, elevating the butt of the rifle with my support hand and pulling the rifle gently into my shoulder with the grip. The rifle is a .308 Remington 700 in a Mcmillan A4. The recoil to the left is very consistent so whatever I'm doing to cause the problem at least I'm consistent about it. I know it's hard to diagnose without seeing me shoot but I'm hoping there is an obvious solution to my problem.
 
#2
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

If I may... have you experimented with your position? You can think you are straight back, but it is a pretty fine adjustment -- you probably won't know what "straight back" feels right until the rifle tells you that you did it right by recoiling straight back for you -- and then reminds you every time you mess it up (ask me how I know -- and still working on getting it right every time).

Make sure your shoulders are relaxed and you aren't shrugging -- then you might start adjusting your position by rotating your body ever so slightly towards the direction the rifle is recoiling in between shots, until the jump to the left goes away, or until it starts jumping the other way, which case adjust back until you find the sweet spot.

I don't know that I entirely believed the whole "straight back" thing until the first time I got it perfect -- it sounds real easy, but there's a lot of subtlety to it, and getting to where you get it right every time takes a lot of self-critical practice (I assume somebody standing over you correcting your form helps a lot to -- haven't had that particular luxury yet).
 
#3
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

try not torquing your grip. sounds like you may be trying to lessen the felt recoil with your trigger hand, cocking your wrist, and the rifle is taking the least path of resistance - the space between the index finger, the thumb and "open" palm.
 
#4
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

With some rifles, it's necessary to be angled a bit toward the shooting side, rather than just straight back.

If the rifle recoils laterally, adjust your position until it stays on target. With the correct position, even prone off a bipod on a hard surface, the rifle will recoil straight.

Believe the muzzle.
 
#5
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

Thanks guys. I will try to adjust my position slightly and see if that alleviates the jump. It's more difficult than I anticipated to simply get straight behind the rifle consistently. Also, I think Top Predator's take on this might have some merit. I will try to ease up on the grip and let the rifle recoil naturally. We'll see where that gets me.
 
#6
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

Im new to precision shooting, so when I went to the range today to practice my fallow though i noticed the same thing happening to me, muzzle was jumping up and left. I just was going to post and ask the experts, but i saw this one.

i figured i was not properly set, but i couldn't fix the problem, thank you guys for your posts, im going to look into the possibility of my shoulder shrugging, and possibly my trigger control, in addition to my body position. i think ill do some dryfire tomorrow.
 
#7
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

I had the exact same thing happen to me yesterday. Took me 12-15 shots to get my body position exactly where it needed to be. I finally started seeing hits at 100yds until the cease fire and the hopping left started all over again. I need more practice.

On a side note... I hit a bowling pin at 300yds for the first time. I was jacked up after that and couldn't hit the side of a mountain for a few shots. funny stuff
 
#8
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

I have a question for you guys while your all here.

Say you were shooting an A4 sized target out at 400 yards, and zoomed in at 22x mag.

You squeeze the trigger, sends one down range and the reticle is now a foot or two to the left of the target, but the target is still in sight. Now considering this is at 22x mag, would you consider this adequate or should the reticle return to within the target?

I understand its possible, but what is considered adequate?
 
#10
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

Don't forget trigger press straight back to the rear. I did some experimenting the other day with different placement of the trigger on my trigger finger, and i could see the difference in the way the rilfe reacted on reoil.
 
#11
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

Will have a look at NPA... never really worked out what was considered to be the best result achievable.

I feel theres always room for improvement, but if some of the more experienced shooters/operators manage to get almost zero shift in sight picture at the end of the recoil phase then I deffinately have to work on it more.

Thanks guys
 
#16
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

For starters, if your muzzle recoils straight back into your shoulder, it's naturally going to make for better accuracy. Also, it allows for sighting your hits as well as faster follow up shots. Need I go on?
 
#17
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

I feel i can tell when things are wrong especially if i rush a shot or it my sight picture is bad. I understand that. I let my sight picture after firing help to dictate proper form.

Im just curious as to what is considered proper.

Let me paint the scenario. You are shooting a standard sized F Class target at 600 yards, from the prone position off a bipod on a concrete surface. The scope is at max magnification.

Under these circumstances what do you consider acceptable movement in regard to sight picture after firing? If it possible to achieve zero shift in point of aim at such distances?

RTO and Greg, bipod is an Atlas V8 shot off a concrete surface from the prone position. Bipod is loaded.
 
#18
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

Snkbit, your position behind the rifle is not causing you to miss something the size of a bowling pin at 300 yds. You have to be shrugging,pushing, twisting your wrist or flinching OR you have serious accuracy problems in your set-up.
All the problems, flinching etc. can be easily detected. Get a shooting buddy to load your rifle for you, have him give it to you loaded part of the time and empty part of the time. If you are moving enough to miss a bowling pin at 300 yds, the movement can be felt by you and seen by your buddy when you squeeze off on an empty chamber.
Also no matter how proficient you become you will never stop a 308 from bouncing off target to some degree. This is one thing missing from my worry list. If I can spot my hits and accuracy is acceptable for the type of shooting I happen to be doing, I call it GOOD NUF.
 
#19
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

Augustus, thanks for the helpful info but Jammer61 is the OP that mentioned the bowling pin. I was simply having a problem with the muzzle flipping fairly far to the left. I believe I have remedied this problem with my McMillans but not so much on the AICS. I moved the butt of the rifle inside my shoulder, basically between my shoulder and bulk of my collar bone(I'm really skinny). This works quite well with the McMillans but the AICS feels like I'm holding a rock directly against my collar bone. I've yet to shoot that rifle due to fear of the inevitable. I'm going to work on my position a little more to see what works and what doesn't. If the position just inside my shoulder is best, the AICS will be on the chopping block.

I do like your idea on having a buddy load my rifle though. Seems as it would be a good way to diagnose any problems I may not be aware of.
 
#20
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

SnkBit, do you use your free hand to hold the butt hook on the AICS?

If you dont, give it a try. I find shooting this way initially has allowed me to find that spot in the shoulder pocket and the rifle recoils straight back.
 
#21
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

Two things to keep in mind:

1. An object in motion tends to stay in motion until acted upon by an outside force.

2. All reactions are equal and opposite.

In other words, the bullet leaves the bore straight, the reaction is exactly opposite (strait back) until it is affected by an outside force (should only be your shoulder). If anything introduces an angle, the rifle will react in other than a straght line.

Make sure the onle contact points on the rifle are linear. Your shoulder needs to be perpendicular, your support hand needs to be perpendicular, your firing hand needs to be perpendicular, your head needs to be...you guessed it.

Your shoulder also needs to be completely relaxed. If you have any muscular tension it will change position in the firing sequence. The ideal situation is if your shoulder is nothing more than a recoil stop (a perpendicular one).

Finding how to accomplish all these things is the challenge.

I can do it sometimes.
 
#24
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

Try making sure the gun is aligned on the target, get your position aligned with the gun and then load the bipod. There may be a slight amount of lateral torque that is causing the jump left. Be aware of your follow through as well. I'm no expert but I have encountered the same problem and it was operator induced. Good luck.
 
#25
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My 308 doesn't move
My 300 doesn't move
My 338 doesn't move
My 50 doesn't move
My father's 416 Weatherby magnum doesn't move.
That is good enough </div></div>

I understand that the movement is shooter induced. What I am trying to do is figure out what I need to do differently to stop this unwanted movement. I don't however understand what you were trying to accomplish with the above post. You are a professional shooting instructor are you not? Instead of some snide remark, maybe you could attempt to help a shooter solve his short comings.

Everyone else, thanks for your help.
 
#26
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SnkBit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My 308 doesn't move
My 300 doesn't move
My 338 doesn't move
My 50 doesn't move
My father's 416 Weatherby magnum doesn't move.
That is good enough </div></div>

I understand that the movement is shooter induced. What I am trying to do is figure out what I need to do differently to stop this unwanted movement. I don't however understand what you were trying to accomplish with the above post. You are a professional shooting instructor are you not? Instead of some snide remark, maybe you could attempt to help a shooter solve his short comings.

Everyone else, thanks for your help. </div></div>

I am not a professional but I would encourage you to stop being a jackass and sign up for the online training if you would like answers from the professional shooting instructor.
 
#27
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

How am I being an ass? I asked a question regarding marksmanship in the marksmanship section of this shooting site. I was very respectful in asking and in answering the other members. I don't see that this was provoked in any way. If the professional instructor doesn't want to give away advice with which he makes his living, that is totally understandable. He doesn't however need to chime in just to take a poke.
 
#28
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

I am not going to speak for Jacob, but I would guess that he is referring to his method of recoil management and how it is effective on the weapon platforms he mentioned. If you would like to do as I mentioned above and sign up for the online training or research his posts then I believe you will find your answer.
 
#29
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

He does help... it's called "Online Training"

As a professional instructor with a proven method for eliminating your very problem, he gets paid for his services. if you want fix your problem, you can muddle along listening to what people offer up, or you can go to the source and get the training you need to actually fix the problem.

As often as this topic comes up, the answer is always the same, so I believe that is what Jacob is referring too... this is getting to be almost a weekly discussion, so the fact his giving a bullet pointed answer is simply one way of pointing you in the right direction. It's not like we keep it a secret.

A lot of elements go into the shot, most of which the average person is not even aware of... I know i have put up quite a few videos on the subject and being that the devil's in the details, you would think that if you can't fix it with what is currently available you will move to well and take a drink, instead you're begging for others to bring the water to you.

I guess the saying you can lead a student to knowledge but you can't make them think applies here.
 
#31
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

Snkbit,
Not trying to be snide at all. Although the answer is in the online training, it has also been posted by me, Frank and several others on the open forums as well.

While not directed at you to be in any way disrespectful, this topic does come up often.

I didn't post the answer again because gugubica had done a fine job of it just a few posts previous. It is not a secret, it is physics. Very simple physics.

Again, it was not my intention to show you any disrespect
 
#32
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

No problem Jacob, It would appear that I simply mistook the nature of the post. I have actually been able to work the problem out with the advice given in this thread. Last week I shot the best I've ever been able to put on paper while watching the hits. I will continue to try and improve and would enjoy a trip to Rifles Only as soon as time allows.
 
#34
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With some rifles, it's necessary to be angled a bit toward the shooting side, rather than just straight back.

If the rifle recoils laterally, adjust your position until it stays on target. With the correct position, even prone off a bipod on a hard surface, the rifle will recoil straight.

Believe the muzzle.
</div></div>
I second that you might be too square.
Believe the muzzle
 
#35
Re: Muzzle recoils to left.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EOD217</div><div class="ubbcode-body">tape your self shooting and post it for us to armchair quarterback. </div></div>
nice
 
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