My $0 Tax Stamp Rant

[Maser]

Most people here know I bounce around multiple gun related forums and after this BBB passage, I keep reading how this is a win for us. How the fuck is it a win?! Just because you save $200 ($5 for AOW), you still have to go through the same bullshit hoops and hurdles to exercise your Second Amendment right. And worse yet, now your FFL/SOT that you buy your NFA items from will know you have an extra $200 in your pocket and will raise the price of their products. I sure as fuck would if I was in the business!

Look, I get that the journey of 1,000 miles begins with one step, but that first step is NOT a win. It's the final step at the 1,000 mile mark that's officially the win. I'm not much of a superstitious person, but I believe that this early victory dance that so many folks are doing is gonna jinx us and we will lose that first step progress. So let's focus on that 1,000 mile goal instead of the preemptive celebration.

Rant over. Now let's get those grills ready!

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

This was pandering. The $200 was never an issue. Nobody on the pro 2a side cared about the $200. If they had removed them from the NFA and left the $200 in as a tax paid by the manufacturer, nobody would have even bitched about it. This isn't a victory, it's your overlords throwing you scraps so the peasants will shut up for a while.

 

[NoDopes]

It's an evil plan. Now, the SC can say, it's not a burden on your 2a right, it's just a form to fill out.

 

[Slash0311]

Good bad or indifferent...

Just because (in this case) the republicans used a procedural trick to REDUCE the "tax" to zero means the democraps can use the exact same trick to make the "tax" any number they want when they're in power.

Its all a game to them and we're just pawns bring used.

(To the tune of Mickey Mouse) F U C K E D A G A I N... FUCKED AGAIN... O we R, Fucked again, YES we R...

 

[Maser]

Just because (in this case) the republicans used a procedural trick to REDUCE the "tax" to zero means the democraps can use the exact same trick to make the "tax" any number they want when they're in power.

And that's the scary part. They can bring the tax back and then account for inflation and that $200 from 1934 will be almost $5,000 today!

 

[Mean_Man]

Most people here know I bounce around multiple gun related forums and after this BBB passage, I keep reading how this is a win for us. How the fuck is it a win?! Just because you save $200 ($5 for AOW), you still have to go through the same bullshit hoops and hurdles to exercise your Second Amendment right. And worse yet, now your FFL/SOT that you buy your NFA items from will know you have an extra $200 in your pocket and will raise the price of their products. I sure as fuck would if I was in the business!

Look, I get that the journey of 1,000 miles begins with one step, but that first step is NOT a win. It's the final step at the 1,000 mile mark that's officially the win. I'm not much of a superstitious person, but I believe that this early victory dance that so many folks are doing is gonna jinx us and we will lose that first step progress. So let's focus on that 1,000 mile goal instead of the preemptive celebration.

Rant over. Now let's get those grills ready!

GOA already announced the moment it's signed they're filing a lawsuit, chill. Yea we didn't want to go the long way around, but at least it's happening. Also they're directly attacking the NFA, so it may pay off even more so.

 

[Big Phish]

We are gonna get ReFucked when the Lunatics steal the election just saying....

 

[Green461]

Couple ways to look at it. If its still on the NFA it cant be reclassified as not a firearm. Not sure if its in common use, but guessing no. If they removed if from the NFA a lot of the states would immediately ban them and nothing could be done because it wouldnt be a firearm and wouldnt fall under protection of the 2A. Its an inconvenience to secure it because we're dealing with retards on the other side that will do anything they can to end it all. It sounds like removing entirely from the NFA would open doors for them that would be hard to close. It sucks ya... but oh well. I got parts ordered to build 2 more suppressors.. Im happy about it.

 

[NoDopes]

Not sure if its in common use, but guessing no.

The SC has set 250K for that threshold. There are millions of suppressors in legal use.

 

[supercorndogs]

And that's the scary part. They can bring the tax back and then account for inflation and that $200 from 1934 will be almost $5,000 today!

Ya, but they have always been able to raise the tax if they can get enough votes in the house and senate with a president that will sign it. This didn't change that.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Most people here know I bounce around multiple gun related forums and after this BBB passage, I keep reading how this is a win for us. How the fuck is it a win?! Just because you save $200 ($5 for AOW), you still have to go through the same bullshit hoops and hurdles to exercise your Second Amendment right.

You have learned a lot and come a long ways, past your first day here.

 

[KYAggie]

The only thing good for me, personally, about getting rid of the $200 charge is the fact I can now “sell” myself the 4 suppressors I have that are on a trust that has my x-wife on it and put them on a trust I created earlier this year with Capitol Armory that has just me on it. Otherwise, I would have to get agent X to sign and notarize a form to get her off the old trust and let’s just say for multiple reasons, that’s not happening. Now, I should be able to get them to the new trust without paying $800.

That’s the only benefit to this I can see.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Those that hate the 2A are more than happy to use Federal Interstate Commerce rules to override any State laws they don't like
(down to the infamous case of the SC saying that well the Federal government can tell you that you must starve rather than plant food on your own land for your own eating).
The whole federal "gun free school zones" technically relies completely on the Interstate Commerce clause.

Funny how the "2A supporters" never seem to be able to do the same thing, (which would be an easy slam dunk).
At the state level quite a few states got that pushed through but it seems we can't or don't have the will to get that passed nationally.

The Federal Government just gave California a nice big slap in the face over emissions.

How come nobody on "our side" has the guts to do the same for the 2A?

I'd guess something about all being in a big club and you aren't part of it...
The oppression eagle having 2 wings but still part of the same beast...

 

[CoryT]

First, the worst thing a Dem admin can do is reinstate the tax to $200. The $200 figure is in the text of the NFA, to increase it would require amending the statute itself, so unless you get Dems with full control of both House and Senate with a filibuster proof majority, that can't happen.

As the NFA was only upheld as a tax act, a $0 tax essentially makes the act unconstitutional on it's face, at least as it applies to the 0 tax items. Lawsuit to remove it inbound already.

 

[NoDopes]

As the NFA was only upheld as a tax act, a $0 tax essentially makes the act unconstitutional on it's face,

I mean... It was already unconstitutional on its face. The SC delaying cert in even the AR-15 bans is very concerning. It was an easy slam dunk.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

I hadn't thought about form 1's. So, you can home build as many as you want for free? Man, the solvent trap market should just go nuts. Especially if the approvals stay fast. All of the manufacturers should start selling kits.

 

[Lawless]

 

[hlee]

Silver lining. I can put my individual NFA stuff on a trust without paying another tax for the transfer. That’ll make use among the family less of a hassle…

 

[akmike47]

This was pandering. The $200 was never an issue. Nobody on the pro 2a side cared about the $200. If they had removed them from the NFA and left the $200 in as a tax paid by the manufacturer, nobody would have even bitched about it. This isn't a victory, it's your overlords throwing you scraps so the peasants will shut up for a while.

Lol retarded, then they’d raise the price $300-400 more on suppressors and most everyone would be bitching paying more than stamp cost. The manufacturer isn’t going to just eat the cost, it would be passed on and turned into profit.

 

[akmike47]

Most people here know I bounce around multiple gun related forums and after this BBB passage, I keep reading how this is a win for us. How the fuck is it a win?! Just because you save $200 ($5 for AOW), you still have to go through the same bullshit hoops and hurdles to exercise your Second Amendment right. And worse yet, now your FFL/SOT that you buy your NFA items from will know you have an extra $200 in your pocket and will raise the price of their products. I sure as fuck would if I was in the business!

Look, I get that the journey of 1,000 miles begins with one step, but that first step is NOT a win. It's the final step at the 1,000 mile mark that's officially the win. I'm not much of a superstitious person, but I believe that this early victory dance that so many folks are doing is gonna jinx us and we will lose that first step progress. So let's focus on that 1,000 mile goal instead of the preemptive celebration.

Rant over. Now let's get those grills ready!

We lost get used to it.

You’ve obviously never ran an FFL, and from that sentence you wouldn’t stay in business

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Lol retarded, then they’d raise the price $300-400 more on suppressors and most everyone would be bitching paying more than stamp cost. The manufacturer isn’t going to just eat the cost, it would be passed on and turned into profit.

Who would expect the manufacturer to eat the cost? "Lol retarded".

So if they charged the manufacturer the $200, like they do everything for the last 100 years that falls under Pittman/ Robertson and Dingle/Johnson, suppressors would cost...... wait for it.... the exact same price they are now. "LOL retarded"..

 

[akmike47]

Who would expect the manufacturer to eat the cost? "Lol retarded".

So if they charged the manufacturer the $200, like they do everything for the last 100 years that falls under Pittman/ Robertson and Dingle/Johnson, suppressors would cost...... wait for it.... the exact same price they are now. "LOL retarded"..

the manufacturer isn’t going to lose $200 per item that’s not how you stay in business all of that gets passed on to us and some, youre lol retarded. You’d lose money on cheap cans, and break even on a $1000 can. You don’t stay in business making no profit so costs are passed on to the consumer.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

the manufacturer isn’t going to lose $200 per item that’s not how you stay in business all of that gets passed on to us and some, youre lol retarded.

I feel like you are struggling with the reading comprehension portion of this conversation, so I'll try to use smaller words:

If Jim (random made up name) buys a suppressor in March of 2025, and he pays $800 for the suppressor, and $200 for the tax stamp,how much has Jim paid?

Answer: $1,000.

If the manufacturer had a built in $200 tax and the suppressor sold for $800, they would now sell the same suppressor for $1,000.

Now our theoretical Jim has paid the same amount of money for the suppressor, and the manufacturer has an identical profit margin..

I can get out the crayons if I need to.

"Lol retarded".

 

[akmike47]

I feel like you are struggling with the reading comprehension portion of this conversation, so I'll try to use smaller words:

If Jim (random made up name) buys a suppressor in March of 2025, and he pays $800 for the suppressor, and $200 for the tax stamp,how much has Jim paid?

Answer: $1,000.

If the manufacturer had a built in $200 tax and the suppressor sold for $800, they would now sell the same suppressor for $1,000.

Now our theoretical Jim has paid the same amount of money for the suppressor, and the manufacturer has an identical profit margin..

I can get out the crayons if I need to.

"Lol retarded".

Funny you mentioned that:

The $200 isn’t in the cost of the can it’s a separate tax, so if it gets added to the can the price is still going up. The manufacturer isn’t going to just charge $200 extra and call it a day, they are going to turn it into profit also.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Funny you mentioned that:

The $200 isn’t in the cost of the can it’s a separate tax, so if it gets added to the can the price is still going up. The manufacturer isn’t going to just charge $200 extra and call it a day, they are going to turn it into profit also.

Are you hungover?

You aren't grasping any of this. Please go back and read the comment you initially responded to.

 

[akmike47]

Are you hungover?

You aren't grasping any of this. Please go back and read the comment you initially responded to.

They aren’t doing extra on their end and not charging you. You’d end up paying more than the can plus stamp….and people would bitch

 

[hlee]

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

They aren’t doing extra on their end and not charging you. You’d end up paying more than the can plus stamp….and people would bitch

What are you talking about? Please take a moment to look into pittman/Robertson and dingle/Johnson. You don't seem to be aware that this model has been in existence for longer than you've been alive and you've paid it on every box of ammo, firearm and fishing pole you've ever bought.

 

[akmike47]

What are you talking about? Please take a moment to look into pittman/Robertson and dingle/Johnson. You don't seem to be aware that this model has been in existence for longer than you've been alive and you've paid it on every box of ammo, firearm and fishing pole you've ever bought.

Exactly, and if there’s extra work/paperwork involved on the manufacturers end they aren’t doing that for free. They are already running tight margins, everything they can charge a little more for they are going to.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Exactly, and if there’s extra work/paperwork involved on the manufacturers end they aren’t doing that for free.

They are currently doing the entire application process to the ATF, mountains of paperwork that has to be absolutely perfect. They then deal with deliveries, (an additional 4473).

I can imagine they could handle the burden of sending the IRS $200 for each unit sold. Doesn't sound like a problem to me.

 

[akmike47]

They are currently doing the entire application process to the ATF, mountains of paperwork that has to be absolutely perfect. They then deal with deliveries, (an additional 4473).

I can imagine they could handle the burden of sending the IRS $200 for each unit sold. Doesn't sound like a problem to me.

And the cost of all that is being passed on to you…

Again if they get taxed $200, and the prices have to go up they aren’t going to only raise them $200 and not make more money.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

And the cost of all that is being passed on to you…

Ok........ so, the point was that nobody gives a shit about the cost we are paying for suppressors currently. We care about the NFA restrictions. If you think folks who are building them now wouldn't lower their costs exponentially by eliminating all of the current paperwork and simply paying $200 per unit in taxes, I don't know what to say. When you can walk into your local gun shop and buy them without even a 4473 and walk out the same day, you don't think their volume would increase? Volume increase causes a natural decrease in price. We would be buying them for current cost or less. Many more manufacturers would jump into the market and drive prices down. Everyone would buy them. It would be amazing. The $200 tax is irrelevant.

 

[Mean_Man]

 

[akmike47]

Ok........ so, the point was that nobody gives a shit about the cost we are paying for suppressors currently. We care about the NFA restrictions. If you think folks who are building them now wouldn't lower their costs exponentially by eliminating all of the current paperwork and simply paying $200 per unit in taxes, I don't know what to say. When you can walk into your local gun shop and buy them without even a 4473 and walk out the same day, you don't think their volume would increase? Volume increase causes a natural decrease in price. We would be buying them for current cost or less. Many more manufacturers would jump into the market and drive prices down. Everyone would buy them. It would be amazing. The $200 tax is irrelevant.

I don’t think the prices would drop much if at all. R&D, materials, machines, employee costs, building and maintenance, insurance, etc are still there and prices of most of that keep rising. The paperwork isn’t the bulk of the money going out, but the time and employees handling that are a cost.

The volume of shitty made/designed suppressors that they would try to sell at today’s prices would go up, but well made stuff with high grade materials isn’t going down in price. If price doesn’t matter, they will charge the same and make more profit. Obviously there would be some more being made cheaply at a cheaper price…just like the cheaply made lower costs cans we already have.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

I don’t think the prices would drop much if at all. R&D, materials, machines, employee costs, building and maintenance, insurance, etc are still there and prices of most of that keep rising. The paperwork isn’t the bulk of the money going out, but the time and employees handling that are a cost.

The volume of shitty made/designed suppressors that they would try to sell at today’s prices would go up, but well made stuff with high grade materials isn’t going down in price. Obviously there would be some being made cheaply at a cheaper price…just like the cheaply made lower costs cans we already have.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but it's all speculation. Of course that's rarely how anything works in economics. If the volume of sales increase, and the market demand increases, and the manufacturer cost decreases (they won't need a team of experts to do the atf applications), then the sale price goes down. Also, adding competition to the market drives prices down. The thing is, nobody is really worried about them being cheaper, that's why I said that nobody cares about the tax stamp. I have a half dozen cans now or so, but if they cost the same amount but I could walk into my lgs tomorrow and buy them over the counter, I'd buy 6 more next week, and so would many folks.

 

[Maggot]

Did anyone actually believe they would give you your rights back?

Me gotta bridge fo sale...

 

[akmike47]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but it's all speculation. Of course that's rarely how anything works in economics. If the volume of sales increase, and the market demand increases, and the manufacturer cost decreases (they won't need a team of experts to do the atf applications), then the sale price goes down. Also, adding competition to the market drives prices down. The thing is, nobody is really worried about them being cheaper, that's why I said that nobody cares about the tax stamp. I have a half dozen cans now or so, but if they cost the same amount but I could walk into my lgs tomorrow and buy them over the counter, I'd buy 6 more next week, and so would many folks.

Again the paperwork folks aren’t a crazy high cost comparatively, but the majority of the money is everything else. If anything companies will want/need to add more machines/employees and need more shop space to keep up with demand, or run 24 hours if they aren’t already

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Again the paperwork folks aren’t a crazy high cost comparatively, but the majority of the money is everything else. If anything companies will want/need to add more machines/employees and need more shop space to keep up with demand, or run 24 hours if they aren’t already

Which will decrease costs. There is a point of diminishing return on economy of scale, but none of the manufacturers are anywhere near it currently. Thats basic economics.

 

[akmike47]

Which will decrease costs. There is a point of diminishing return on economy of scale, but none of the manufacturers are anywhere near it currently. Thats basic economics.

Losing the cost of a couple paperwork Jockeys time isn’t going to do much to offset paying more hours on higher paid skilled employees, more wear on equipment, more tooling, higher electricity usage, or if they start adding expensive machines, and whatever else.

They aren’t hiring special people to do paperwork, it’s not rocket science. My last audit when I was selling shit they couldn’t find a mistake and the auditor was really trying.

 

[Mean_Man]

Losing the cost of a couple paperwork Jockeys time isn’t going to do much to offset paying more hours on higher paid skilled employees, more wear on equipment, more tooling, higher electricity usage, or if they start adding expensive machines, and whatever else.

They aren’t hiring special people to do paperwork, it’s not rocket science. My last audit when I was selling shit they couldn’t find a mistake and the auditor was really trying.

What do you think these things are made of? Stainless steel and aluminum will comprise the majority of the high influx of sells I’d bet. Titanium is expensive and it wears on tooling due to the heat generated when cutting it, as well as it hardens if you screw up that cut and it got hot… and inconel is also expensive as a “super alloy” Hell you can’t even legally export it without some governmental approval to allies if I’m not mistaken. But a low cost tube with simple baffles out of stainless steel, cheap easy and low cost all around, and I think that and aluminum ones will be the bulk sellers for a while.

 

[akmike47]

What do you think these things are made of? Stainless steel and aluminum will comprise the majority of the high influx of sells I’d bet. Titanium is expensive and it wears on tooling due to the heat generated when cutting it, as well as it hardens if you screw up that cut and it got hot… and inconel is also expensive as a “super alloy” Hell you can’t even legally export it without some governmental approval to allies if I’m not mistaken. But a low cost tube with simple baffles out of stainless steel, cheap easy and low cost all around, and I think that and aluminum ones will be the bulk sellers for a while.

You obviously didn’t read one of my other posts. Inconel exportation depends on the alloy, end use, and destination country. Certain alloys are used in ITAR parts so they obviously aren’t sending that to a “enemy” to be used for weapons development

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Losing the cost of a couple paperwork Jockeys time isn’t going to do much to offset paying more hours on higher paid skilled employees, more wear on equipment, more tooling, higher electricity usage, or if they start adding expensive machines, and whatever else.

They aren’t hiring special people to do paperwork, it’s not rocket science. My last audit when I was selling shit they couldn’t find a mistake and the auditor was really trying.

Forget the paperwork people, but despite what you think, finding competent people to fill out that paperwork perfectly in 2025 is probably almost impossible. Most people can't tie their shoes.

The economy of scale I'm talking about is what you're incorrectly describing. The more of an item you make, the less that item should cost you. The more titanium you buy the cheaper it gets. The more inconnel you buy, the cheaper it gets. The more you can automate, the cheaper, the more you can refine the manufacturing etc. The more of something you make, the less it costs. Over time as you continue to refine the process and the labor force, the cost should continue to go down. There is a point of diminishing return as I mentioned above, but none of the current suppressor manufacturers are anywhere close to that point. Again, literally econ 101.

 

[akmike47]

Forget the paperwork people, but despite what you think, finding competent people to fill out that paperwork perfectly in 2025 is probably almost impossible. Most people can't tie their shoes.

The economy of scale I'm talking about is what you're incorrectly describing. The more of an item you make, the les that item should cost you. The more titanium you buy the cheaper it gets. The more inconnel you buy, the cheaper it gets. The more you can automate, the cheaper, the more you can refine the manufacturing etc. The more of something you make, the less it costs. Over time as you continue to refine the process and the labor force, the cost should continue to go down. There is a point of diminishing return as I mentioned above, but none of the current suppressor manufacturers are anywhere close to that point. Again, literally econ 101.

Any place I’ve worked I’ve double and sometimes triple checked paperwork depending on who did it, then it’s checked at least once more by compliance, and it was randomly spot checked near time an audit could happen.
Im willing to bet I’ve touched way more of the paperwork we are talking about than most people unfortunately.

Like I said some things go down in cost, while others go up in cost. “Over time as you continue to refine the process and the labor force, the cost should continue to go down” yet the prices keep going up. I believe I read from 2019-2024 suppressor sales went up 264%, prices didn’t go down they just raked in the profit and tried to keep up. If they can almost sell more cans than they can make there’s no smart reason they should cut prices even if they can make the same money with more units.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Any place I’ve worked I’ve double and sometimes triple checked paperwork depending on who did it, then it’s checked at least once more by compliance, and it was randomly spot checked near time an audit could happen.
Im willing to bet I’ve touched way more of the paperwork we are talking about than most people unfortunately.

Like I said some things go down in cost, while others go up in cost. “Over time as you continue to refine the process and the labor force, the cost should continue to go down” yet the prices keep going up. i believe I read from 2019-2024 suppressor sales went up 264%, prices didn’t go down they just raked in the profit.

During the highest burst of inflation in world history? I'll bet the prices followed the inflation step for step. The tax assessment on my home increased 115% in the same time frame. Ribeye went from $5.99/ lb to $16.99/lb. Of course they didn't get cheaper.

 

[akmike47]

During the highest burst of inflation in world history? I'll bet the prices followed the inflation step for step. The tax assessment on my home increased 115% in the same time frame. Ribeye went from $5.99/ lb to $16.99/lb. Of course they didn't get cheaper.

I’m on the side saying the current stuff won’t get cheaper

 

[Matches Malone]

You guys are arguing the cost, where as this is about setting court precedent of common use and removal from the NFA. That is the “win.”

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

I’m on the side saying the current stuff won’t get cheaper

Well, this entire conversation has been speculation based on an event that didn't happen. I'm using the principles of economics to describe this non-existent future, and you're using your crystal ball or whatever. We won't be able to see who is correct because it didn't pass, and it won't pass in the future. We all knew they weren't going to pass it.

 

[akmike47]

You guys are arguing the cost, where as this is about setting court precedent of common use and removal from the NFA. That is the “win.”

There’s still a registry that requires a photo/finger prints and you’re required to have a document that says you were allowed to own it under threat of a potential decade in prison.

I’m missing the win. Even in rural Ireland that has shit gun laws were you had to keep your rifles at the police station but you can buy a suppressor at the hardware store like a hammer(at the time/location I was there)

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

You guys are arguing the cost, where as this is about setting court precedent of common use and removal from the NFA. That is the “win.”

You're correct, but we got way off into the weeds discussing the principles of economics in a theoretical scenario that we were denied by the senate.

It's all mental masturbation. Of course removal from the NFA is the goal. My original post said so, clearly. What I said was that nobody would have cared if they had left the $200 tax in place as long as they removed them from the NFA. Nobody cares about the $200. I doubt many people would disagree with that.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

There’s still a registry that requires a photo/finger prints and you’re required to have a document that says you were allowed to own it under threat of a potential decade in prison.

I’m missing the win.

You're sharper than this. Did you get hammered last night? It was the 4th of July. It happens to the best of us. He's saying we didn't get "the win"..