My concerns about NFA firearms - where am I wrong?

[razor488]

I would be interested in putting together a gun trust and legally acquiring NFA firearms through the ATF tax stamp process but I have some serious concerns that I have not been able to put to rest. I am curious to get your feedback on these and see if I am either flat out wrong, or just being too paranoid.

My two concerns is the NFA's language that an unauthorized person cannot be in possession of an NFA firearm, and the 30 year minimum sentence on a violent crime while in possession of an NFA firearm.

1. The law states that an unauthorized person cannot be in possession of an NFA firearm. The question is - what is the definition of possession? Although this did not include an NFA firearm, the ATF has raided people's homes where one spouse was a legal gun owner, while the other spouse was disqualified from owning a firearm (for being a felon or whatever). The fact that the firearm was in the home constituted possession. Therefor, if you let your buddy at the gun range shoot your NFA firearm while you are standing next to him, is that breaking the law? Based on my understanding, I think it is breaking the law but that the ATF simply isn't enforcing it.. yet? What if your buddy is simply in the same car as you and your NFA firearm... based on the aforementioned situation, they could argue he is in possession. The situations are endless.

2. The law states that if you commit a violent crime while in possession of an NFA firearm, there is a 30 year minimum sentence. The NFA firearm does NOT have to actually be used in the offense. Therefor, if you have an NFA in your car and you use a non NFA firearm in what you believe is self defense, but the prosecutor still charges you, then I think you would be looking at a 30 year sentence. Additionally, there is case law where OWNERSHIP constitutes possession. In that situation, you would be looking at 30 years even if your NFA firearm was sitting at home in the safe. I have a source for this but I will have to find it later as I have to leave soon.

What are your thoughts on these two concerns?

p.s. Yes I have spoken with lawyers familiar with NFA firearms and they don't have a good answer.

 

[razor488]

Let me reiterate that using a firearm in self defense is the absolute last option and I hope I am never put up that position. But you are taking an already high stakes decision and raising the stakes even higher.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

If your worried about what might happen, don't get out of bed in the morning. Ever speed?

 

[427Cobra]

We've got a 'like' button, but where's the 'you're being a dick' button?

I think what he was saying don't swet the small stuff, life is boring living inside self imposed walls.

1. Razor if your married or living with a Felon then my advice is to reconsider owning weapons, NFA or not.

2. Don't do anything stupid and this is a moot point.

 

[Maggot]

The ATF rules and regs are easily available. Unfortunately, they are about as clear as mud and Ive found myself in your position. Consider this one. You can legally only buy a pistol in the state of your residence....BUT, there is also a provision for dual residency, say for those who live in Virginia, but winter 4-5 months in Texas or Florida, or military person ell stationed outside their home state.I found myself in that position years ago and could get no clear answer form ATF or anyone. It seems to boil down to whoever your dealing with at the time...which leaves you open to being well greased and fucked if some LE individual, or agency, wants to "GETCHA'. 30 years is a long time.

Be careful, very careful.

 

[ORD]

You are seeking "legal" advice/opinions on an Internet forum...HUGE MISTAKE #1!

While I certainly can understand your reservations/concerns, if you have in fact spoken with an attorney (or attorneys) familiar with NFA matters and they don't have any definitive answers for you or at least answers that you find acceptable, what makes you think that you'll be able to trust or otherwise reasonably rely upon anything that you are going to dig up here or anywhere else on the Interweb? Simply put, life isn't always black/white or right/wrong or _______. You can find instances, at least in case law, that will give you both sides of the coin you are flipping, but at the end of the day, there isn't necessarily a definitive answer (or one that isn't at least subject to reinterpretation/application on a case-by-case basis).

The ATF regs are about as clear as mud and frankly, they have no interest in updating/revising/etc. them at this point. Just use your common sense (no matter how "un"-common it may be these days) and be smart about the decisions you ultimately make for yourself/your family, but don't over-think or over-analyze every little detail like what you are doing because you'll go mad long before you get anything meaningful answers (and even then...said answer can change in an instant depending on the facts/circumstances of each individual case/scenario).

 

[razor488]

ORD - I am not seeking legal advice, I am simply asking for other people's opinion on taking on these risks.

Some people are saying these concerns are trivial but I'm not sure that they are. I think the ATF would have a case against anybody with an NFA firearm if they wanted to.

 

[shooter6.5]

First of all. The regs DO leave a lot of wiggle room and in many cases they are written that way on purpose. The ATF agent does the the investigation, and then he or she presents their facts to an Assistant US Attorney, or a grand jury for a prosecutive opinion. Most jurisdictions have prosecutive guidelines, which determeine what levels of intent must be met to move forward. Much goes into this.

There is no way you can get an answer here as many jurisdictions have different thoughts and guidelines. My suggestion would be to contact your local ATF jurisdiction and see what answer you get back-if any. As one poster already stated, use good common sence. I do not leave any of my NFA items unattended.

 

[ORD]

ORD - I am not seeking legal advice, I am simply asking for other people's opinion on taking on these risks.

Some people are saying these concerns are trivial but I'm not sure that they are. I think the ATF would have a case against anybody with an NFA firearm if they wanted to.

You can call it what you will, but ultimately, when you are asking for interpretations/applications of federal law and the ramifications of same in a particular setting...you are seeking legal advice. All I'm saying is that regardless of what you may receive in terms of information herein, take it with a grain of salt as ultimately, it will be worth precisely what you paid for it.

Also, I'm not trivializing your concerns in any manner. I understand where you are coming from and while I think that you may be putting a bit too much worry/fret/etc. into the mix, your concerns are legitimate insomuch as you perceive them to be.

As to #1 above...possession is HIGHLY subject to interpretation on a case-by-case basis. If you are around persons who are prohibited from legally possessing firearms for whatever reason, it is best to NOT have any firearms around/about, especially NFA items. PERIOD! If you are dumb enough to ignore that, then about the best you can do is to keep them highly secured in a safe or other locked-down manner where the prohibited person cannot have access (meaning the combination to the locked container, the key, etc., etc.) and do everything you can to ensure that you maintain that level of integrity over those items from the prohibited person. Same for the range...if you are that concerned about someone coming into "possession" of your NFA item, politely refuse to allow anyone else to use said items and when you go downrange or for a drink, etc., secure those items under lock/key to ensure that they are at least not in physical possession of your NFA item (again...common sense stuff here...not really "letter of the law" time).

As to #2 above...if you want to spend your entire life worrying about the what ifs should a prosecutor decide to over-charge/over-indict/over-etc., then so be it. I think that your concerns re: simple ownership constituting possess in a far removed circumstance like you defend yourself in the next county with your NFA items locked up at home and you get a 30yr min sentence (assuming a conviction in the first damn place) are wholly misplaced and unsupportable under reasonable caselaw in the majority of jurisdictions. I'm not saying you don't have a case cite out there from somewhere where that actually happened...but again...if that's the sort of catastrophe you envisioning...then perhaps NFA ownership isn't for you?

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Mtn - on a serious note: maybe it isn't for you? At least not at this time. Step away, let it marinate on your brain for a few months / a year or two.

And GF wasn't responding in the manner you thought.

 

[razor488]

ORD - I definitely understand where you're coming from and I appreciate it.

 

[razor488]

I do wonder if it would be worth contacting the ATF directly with these concerns but I doubt it. Honestly what they tell you is worthless anyway. It is all about what the law says and how the U.S. attorney wants to interpret it.

 

[razor488]

" maybe it isn't for you? "

I don't understand.

I guess I am uncomfortable with some of it. My concern is that I don't want to put any family or friends at risk of serious legal issues. Similar situation for me is shooting with a friend or two and sometimes we'll shoot some tannerite. That has some potential to have someone call the law because 'Something just blew up!'. I'm usually the guy with the marking paint, so I'm kinda the official 'ride down to the target to give it a fresh coat guy'. I'm down range painting a target when the sheriff shows up, are my two friends back with the gear in danger of 10 years Fed time? But there is No Answer to that?

Ya the fact that there isn't a clear answer is the frustrating part. I have actually gone to legal seminars on gun laws and even they don't have answers to these NFA questions. I also e-mailed one of the speakers asking him these questions and the best he could come up with was that the ATF is not enforcing it to the extent they probably could.

 

[Unknown]

I don't want to give legal advice because I'm not qualified to do so. I try to balance my knowledge of laws, with common sense, what I know of previous enforcement actions and court decisions. Although I have extensive experience with the criminal justice system and the legal system, I am not an attorney.

I am able to read the applicable laws and sometimes even though I think I understand the law, a court decision on the issue can change things significantly. Just because someone is an attorney doesn't mean they are qualified to give advice on a certain topic. For example, I wouldn't want a real estate attorney to represent me in a case regarding use of deadly force and/or BATFE regulations.

Attorneys have to read and try to understand the laws the same way we do, they usually have access to more recent legal decisions that can significantly alter our understanding on how a law is enforced or interpreted. I would suggest studying the laws yourself, then if you still have questions, start with the free resources (ask BATFE for related decisions), and if you still have questions, hire a qualified attorney.

There are a number of other choices such as not even messing with NFA firearms. But I think that living in fear of every possibility in life could make life VERY boring.

I'm not trying to be a dick, or demean your concerns, because they show that you are thinking intelligently about the issues. I would caution against over thinking the issue once you get sufficient information.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

" maybe it isn't for you? "

I don't understand.

I guess I am uncomfortable with some of it……...But there is No Answer to that?

Are GF14s comments beginning to click yet?

Want to be really uncomfy? Start looking into BATFE opinion letters and how they are not always something you can hang your hat on. In fact, if you want to know how corrupt it is - watch Rangel manipulate the vote and ultimately gavel down the Hughes act wrongfully:



Mean time, while you need to review the matter with your counsel - you're making a mountain out of a mole hill on the possession thing. In the vernacular - if you're present - you're in possession regardless of who is holding it.

For funnzys - from Black's: What is POSSESSION? definition of POSSESSION (Black's Law Dictionary)

If you haven't already - read it all: ATF Online - Publications - Firearms - National Firearms Act Handbook

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

ORD - I am not seeking legal advice, I am simply asking for other people's opinion on taking on these risks.

Some people are saying these concerns are trivial but I'm not sure that they are. I think the ATF would have a case against anybody with an NFA firearm if they wanted to.

If you want to kick a sleeping bear, do it here
Subguns.com NFA Firearms Discussion Board - Message Index
Many a BATF-E agent is a member there, as well as a few from the NFA Tech Branch. I will caution you Do Not say anything about writing a letter an asking over there as you will get your ass handed to you. That is where your question will be answered by the guys an gals who might be the ones coming to your door. Trust me what your worried about is nothing, as if you get a visit over the question you have ask here, you have much bigger issues for sure! The BATF-E has assholes like every agency, company, unit or any group you can name, but more than the bulk are standup guys, trust me! Why is it you only hear bad things about them, who always has a hand in portraying that, B/S. Why is it you never hear about all the dicks they corral up who are putting DD's F/A's an Explosives in the hands of fucking gangs or dirt bags who are intent on fucking up this country?

 

[razor488]

If you want to kick a sleeping bear, do it here
Subguns.com NFA Firearms Discussion Board - Message Index
Many a BATF-E agent is a member there, as well as a few from the NFA Tech Branch. I will caution you Do Not say anything about writing a letter an asking over there as you will get your ass handed to you. That is where your question will be answered by the guys an gals who might be the ones coming to your door. Trust me what your worried about is nothing, as if you get a visit over the question you have ask here, you have much bigger issues for sure! The BATF-E has assholes like every agency, company, unit or any group you can name, but more than the bulk are standup guys, trust me! Why is it you only hear bad things about them, who always has a hand in portraying that, B/S. Why is it you never hear about all the dicks they corral up who are putting DD's F/A's an Explosives in the hands of fucking gangs or dirt bags who are intent on fucking up this country?

What do you mean writing a letter? You mean they would get mad if you said you wanted to write a letter to the ATF asking the questions?

 

[QuietShootr]

Those are legitimate concerns. I'm also interested in 'possession'. I can let my buddy shoot a suppressed rifle if I'm standing there. What if he's 100 yds away and in sight? What if we're both one the same property but separated by 500 yds and is out of sight?

You're overthinking this.

 

[QuietShootr]

Yes, asshole, because a lot of things get ignored until some Dudley Do-Right writes them a letter and makes them say YES or NO in writing.

What do you mean writing a letter? You mean they would get mad if you said you wanted to write a letter to the ATF asking the questions?

 

[QuietShootr]

Unfortunately it's not small stuff. Something as 'innocent' as leaving the shooting benches to grab a coke while your buddy is shooting your suppressed rifle may/might lead to serious trouble.

Horseshit.

 

[razor488]

Yes, asshole, because a lot of things get ignored until some Dudley Do-Right writes them a letter and makes them say YES or NO in writing.

I'm really not trying to ruffle yours or anyone else's feathers here. I just want to abide by the laws that they enforce. Seems like they would appreciate someone trying to not break the law. I'm not sure why you need to call me an asshole.

 

[QuietShootr]

Because the last time some "Good Citizen" started asking questions he just HAD to have a specific answer to, we got fucked out of being able to have a suppressor replaced by the manufacturer. If Ned Flanders hadn't felt the need to start asking questions, the world would have continued spinning on its axis happily. But NO...he had to KNOW.

I'm really not trying to ruffle yours or anyone else's feathers here. I just want to abide by the laws that they enforce. Seems like they would appreciate someone trying to not break the law. I'm not sure why you need to call me an asshole.

 

[Veer_G]

Yes, asshole, because a lot of things get ignored until some Dudley Do-Right writes them a letter and makes them say YES or NO in writing.

I'm really not trying to ruffle yours or anyone else's feathers here. I just want to abide by the laws that they enforce. Seems like they would appreciate someone trying to not break the law. I'm not sure why you need to call me an asshole.

To your last point: Online disinhibition effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In picture form:

The thing to do here is to treat the ATF thing like a game of "Operation" that's hooked into a 220 line. Inasmuch as you can, you don't break the rules. One of them is that felons don't touch firearms and non-prohibited people don't allow or encourage them to. Should you immediately supervise your stuff, NFA or not? Yes. Should you choose wisely in people that you allow to share part or all of your life? Yes. Should you question yourself if you have a nagging doubt about something and you realize that it might, in fact, be downright stupid? If you think it is, it probably is, which means that you steer completely clear of felons and other prohibited types if you want to have an "accessorized" lifestyle. And yes, some things in life may seem unfair or arbitrary. Deal with it.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

What do you mean writing a letter? You mean they would get mad if you said you wanted to write a letter to the ATF asking the questions?

Get a Green book, read the law.
Now you seem to be new at this so I'll indulge you somewhat, in all enforceable laws there is the letter which is somewhat different than intent in the eyes of the Prick(as most call them) enforcing them. Many laws have gray areas that are left to the discretion of the "Prick" for a reason. When some do-good'er requires a letter that letter is a paper trial for any grand jury or court room. Now you have taken away the Pricks ability to blink depending on many things.
Gun owners or want-a-bees of same are their own worst enemys most of the time,...
I suggest you not get into NFA as you seem to be having issues with it w/o even owning one let alone more than one. Remember there have been all of 4 NFA items used in a criminal activity by the legal owner sense 1934,.... BTW 3 were used by Cops an one buy a civi who went off the deep end, if you press ahead don't add to the numbers. The data shows Cops are 75% more likely to use a NFA item improperly, should we stop Cops from having them?

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Oh, BTW while most of you were napping.
Sen. Yee indicted on arms trafficking, public corruption charges - latimes.com

 

[razor488]

Interesting discussion here

Shooting a NFA while still with the dealer

 

[Shoottothrill]

I go to my local indoor range and shoot Full Auto weapons all the time, they rent them there. So far neither I nor anyone at Scottsdale gun club has been arrested for letting me hold one of their NFA weapons. Your totally over thinking this thing. I think as long as the owner is with you its ok for you to shoot his or her NFA weapon whether it be full auto or suppressed.

 

[xs hedspace]

I asked a retired Sheriff's Deputy once, what can they bust me on, if I fire my blackpowder golf ball mortar into this large pond outside of town. His reply? "They'll find something."
BTW, it goes about 450 yds, splashes, pissed off ducks, shoot and scoot.

 

[QuietShootr]

That's only 'interesting' if you just found out about NFA about ten minutes ago.

Interesting discussion here

Shooting a NFA while still with the dealer

 

[Maggot]

The data shows Cops are 75% more likely to use a NFA item improperly, should we stop Cops from having them?

Considering the abuses of power we are seeing in the LEO community I think the answer to this is clearly:

Well, Yes. DOH!

 

[Ring]

the ATF has raided people's homes where one spouse was a legal gun owner, while the other spouse was disqualified from owning a firearm

if the other person has no access to the gun IE: its locked up and they dont have a key, then the courts have ruled that is kosher...

but if not secured, then they "do" have access...

as for a "buddy"... no different then a "buddy" walking into a gun shop or gun show or a shooting range.... that would be his problem, not yours.
#2
a good shoot is a good shoot... dont matter what you use, or how use use it...

 

[wakajawaka]

Get a Green book, read the law.

ATF Online - Publications - Firearms - National Firearms Act Handbook