My options to accurize M14

[taseal]

I'm getting my police dept 2 M14s through an army surplus (section 1033) program. We want to turn these into LE Sniper rifles...

I would have much preferred something like a GAP-10, but these are coming to us for free, so I gotta work with what I got. (I'm also getting us some M16A1s that we will put SBR uppers on)

I'm unfamiliar with the M14 (shot the M1 a few times with a JAE100 stock) so I'm not sure what I got here...

Anyone know if I can put a picatinny rail on it, so I can attach my HDMR on there? putting a scope would be a good start I guess lol...

As long as I can hold 1 moa with this rifle, I will be fine. Since it's for LE use, I don't think I'll be planning to shoot past 300 yards.

JAE stock is probably out of the question as I don't think the dept wants to spend money 'accurizing' it.

Thanks everyone.

Oh and what's the diff between M1A you can buy from Springfield now vs the M14 that the army used?

 

[loper]

The M14 was select fire, and the M1A isn't. The USGI M14 has all GI parts in it, which are prized by people building M1A's or other semi-auto versions of the rifle.

Standard accurizing for the platform includes glass bedding, unitizing the gas cylinder, reaming the flash hider, and a National Match or Sadlak guide rod. All the standard stuff, like barrel condition/quality, trigger jobs, or McMillan stocks help too.

The Sadlak mount is probably the pick of the litter, for scope mounts. The SOCOM M1A has various rail mounting points on the fore-end, for forward accessories.

 

[superjc]

In to hear why/how a different guide rod can increase accuracy. I've heard one of the top ways to accurize them is a solid bedding, or newer metal stock. It stands to reason as any movement (.002") of the action in the stock WILL translate out to larger groups at longer and longer distances. Imagine the beating those M14 stocks took if ever fired in full-auto mode.

 

[JMGlasgow]

Front barrel band tension is also crucial to accurizing. Check out the M14 forum. There is a lot of info there specifically related to accurizing. Also a good trigger job wouldn't hurt.

 

[LongRifle75]

I dont have any personnal experience with accurizing one, they are however exceptional weapons. I hope to own an M1A one day myself. My department has four we got a few years ago and I thought about doing the same thing with them but was told by a couple of people in the LE Sniper community that by the time we spent the money into accurizing one or two of them we could have bought a good bolt gun....... so we never did. Id still like to try it though.

 

[loper]

superjc,

The theory behind the "better" guide rod is that the motion of operating spring is more consistent, causing all the other moving parts to behave in a more consistent manner. All the moving mass in the M14 (or M1 Garrand) design causes problems when it comes to accuracy. I'm not saying it can't be done, it's just difficult.

I don't have any conclusive proof that it (the guide rod) works, since I had everything (gas cylinder, bedding, trigger, and guide rod) done at the same time on my M1A. The guy that did the work for me has been building rifles for the NG service rifle teams around here for years, and does quality work. I asked him for suggestions, and he said I should go for the Sadlak guide rod, so I did.

I do know that the finished product works great. Objectively, you can do better with an AR 10, for less money. I just like the M14. Like LongRifle said, for the same money you can build one hell of a bolt gun. For me, it was a matter of personal preference.

 

[Alcatraz]

I have an M1A with a 4th gen scope Springfield mount and a trijicon accupoint (5-25) that's what I use on mine and have very little problems. If you do get a 4th gen Springfield mount be careful when tightening the second knob it's designed to pull the mount to the left or push it to the right. Found that out the hard way, but its not to hard once you figure it out. Just need to play with the mount a bit.

 

[Shooter45]

taseal,
I have a slight M1A obsession and own a few of them from a Socom, a loaded edition, up to a Fulton Armory Peerless. Depending on your budget there are numerous things you can to in order to maximize accuracy out of that platform. One of the largest I recently discovered was using a Sage chasis. My first M1A was a standard loaded edition purchased about 15 yrs ago back when Springfield was still using GI surplus parts on their civilian models. These GI parts were built to much better tolerances than the majority of current production parts unless you pay for top parts. Here is a list of some of the steps to accurize the M1A platform:

One of the first steps you can do is unitize the gas system and replace the current gas plug with a Sadlak piston.
Installing a Sadlak Guide rod the help minimize the recoil spring from kinking and giving a fluid motion.
Use a Smith or Sadlak mount for optics as they are two of the best for locking up and providing a secure mount for a scope.
Replace the current military fiberglass/wood stock with a more rigid platform from McMillan, Sage, Troy, etc... and bed it if needed.
Since it is a DDM rifle for your department, it will most likely only be utilizing optics but if not, replace the rear sight to a hooded match sight along with a match front sight.

One of the better stocks I've found is the Sage Chasis. It completely changes the feeling and control of the weapon from the original stocks will also providing ample amount of rail space for other accessories and/or optic choices. It has it's own front collar so there is no gas system unitization requirement, it locks the barrel and band into the stock with it's own system. Installing this platform on my original loaded M1A it was producing sub moa groups at 100yds; with open sights!

Accurizing the M1A is expensive but by using just the Sage Chasis, a Smith or Sadlak scope mount, and optic you should be able to get the 1moa accuracy that you are striving for. They can be very picky with ammo depending but that is the least of worries. There is also some very good information on the m14forum.com that will provide very good information and recommendations for all variations of the M1A.

 

[08Cayenne]

Should be a solid M14's, probably good bones with all usgi parts. Need to check ME & TE, and head space. I use Sadlak mounts, have one of each, steel, aluminum and titanium, never had a problem with any of them. If there in decent shape they should hold 1.5 moa. In order to hold 1 moa you would probably need access to an armorer and a lot of practice time. Nothing is cheap to do on these rifles anymore. From the people that I've heard of that got these rifles usually just end up moth balling them. Heavier and different to shoot than the normal rifles LEO is used to. If worse comes to worse you could part them out and probably make some quick cash for what you want to purchase, if your allowed to do this. Post some pics when you receive them. Bruce Dow, a well respected armorer, is down your way, he could probably help you out.

 

[taseal]

Thanks guys...

Remember, these are not 'given' to the dept. they are 'borrowed' from the gov. and if asked back, you must return them. So I'm not going to spend too much money on them. if the dept (or I) end up spending money on them, I might as well get a GAP-10, or just a basic R700 AAC-SD

Can I expect at least 1 MOA out of a stock M14? I might change out the stock, and that's about it. Who makes stocks and how much? I know alum frames are going to cost $$$. macmillan too... my B&C stock for my R700 is nice, but not sure if they make one for M1A.

Thought about a basic JAE100-G3 too, but it will be a year before I can get it!

 

[taseal]

Should be a solid M14's, probably good bones with all usgi parts. Need to check ME & TE, and head space. I use Sadlak mounts, have one of each, steel, aluminum and titanium, never had a problem with any of them. If there in decent shape they should hold 1.5 moa. In order to hold 1 moa you would probably need access to an armorer and a lot of practice time. Nothing is cheap to do on these rifles anymore. From the people that I've heard of that got these rifles usually just end up moth balling them. Heavier and different to shoot than the normal rifles LEO is used to. If worse comes to worse you could part them out and probably make some quick cash for what you want to purchase, if your allowed to do this. Post some pics when you receive them. Bruce Dow, a well respected armorer, is down your way, he could probably help you out.

1.5 doesn't sound too bad, but I would like at least 1 moa. I'm gonna have about a 500 dollar budget to get 1 moa, and that's going to include the scope.

taseal,
I have a slight M1A obsession and own a few of them from a Socom, a loaded edition, up to a Fulton Armory Peerless. Depending on your budget there are numerous things you can to in order to maximize accuracy out of that platform. One of the largest I recently discovered was using a Sage chasis. My first M1A was a standard loaded edition purchased about 15 yrs ago back when Springfield was still using GI surplus parts on their civilian models. These GI parts were built to much better tolerances than the majority of current production parts unless you pay for top parts. Here is a list of some of the steps to accurize the M1A platform:

One of the first steps you can do is unitize the gas system and replace the current gas plug with a Sadlak piston.
Installing a Sadlak Guide rod the help minimize the recoil spring from kinking and giving a fluid motion.
Use a Smith or Sadlak mount for optics as they are two of the best for locking up and providing a secure mount for a scope.
Replace the current military fiberglass/wood stock with a more rigid platform from McMillan, Sage, Troy, etc... and bed it if needed.
Since it is a DDM rifle for your department, it will most likely only be utilizing optics but if not, replace the rear sight to a hooded match sight along with a match front sight.

One of the better stocks I've found is the Sage Chasis. It completely changes the feeling and control of the weapon from the original stocks will also providing ample amount of rail space for other accessories and/or optic choices. It has it's own front collar so there is no gas system unitization requirement, it locks the barrel and band into the stock with it's own system. Installing this platform on my original loaded M1A it was producing sub moa groups at 100yds; with open sights!

Accurizing the M1A is expensive but by using just the Sage Chasis, a Smith or Sadlak scope mount, and optic you should be able to get the 1moa accuracy that you are striving for. They can be very picky with ammo depending but that is the least of worries. There is also some very good information on the m14forum.com that will provide very good information and recommendations for all variations of the M1A.

Thanks bud!

Not sure if I can convince the chief to spend $1K on the rifle to get a sage stock... We're on a very tight budget this year. That's why we're utilizing this program. because the M14s are free. Otherwise I'd get a basic bolt action .308... I gotta make the best use of what I got. I don't even know if I can convince him for a scope. I was thinking of getting a bushnell 10x42 mildot scope for about 150 and calling it a day (and the mount obviously)

What are my options on the lower end of the stock spectrum? (this is if chief says no to ordering a stock, and I gotta buy something myself)


I know it's very little to work with guys, but it's all I have to work on now.

I could always use my personal R700 that can hold .25 moa, but then if I have to use it, it goes in as evidence, and I won't see it for a long time (and it will not come back the way I give it to them)

 

[Shooter45]

If you're only on a $500 budget, I'd look at getting a Sadlak or Smith mount as mentioned. Then look at a fixed Super Sniper around 10x or 12x. Not sure on your actual operating environment, but if it's a police DDM rifle your shots should be under 100yds. If you're out in the country (not sure on your area in Florida) and expect longer shots base your expected engagement range on what magnification level you need.

Take advantage of your position and contact these companies letting them know it's for the department and see what kind of pricing they will give you so you can make the most of your money.

Original M14's with GI parts were built to much better specs than the current models so your rifles may very well be capable of 1 moa accuracy or near that with some good ammo. Gives you a place to start without spending too much money at least and seeing where you are and what you need for the future.

 

[taseal]

If you're only on a $500 budget, I'd look at getting a Sadlak or Smith mount as mentioned. Then look at a fixed Super Sniper around 10x or 12x. Not sure on your actual operating environment, but if it's a police DDM rifle your shots should be under 100yds. If you're out in the country (not sure on your area in Florida) and expect longer shots base your expected engagement range on what magnification level you need.

Take advantage of your position and contact these companies letting them know it's for the department and see what kind of pricing they will give you so you can make the most of your money.

Original M14's with GI parts were built to much better specs than the current models so your rifles may very well be capable of 1 moa accuracy or near that with some good ammo. Gives you a place to start without spending too much money at least and seeing where you are and what you need for the future.

I will check those out. I might put my HDMR on there. I was thinking about getting a good QD mount and use the HDMR on the M14. I haven't been shooting my R700 much anyways... and if I need to swap, then I swap them out.

My area is not rural. it's suburban, but small town. I would assume max shooting distance of 300 yards. and that's pushing it. You know.... set across a rooftop to a bank or something. over 300 is doubtful.

I will put up some pics when it comes in. the gov website says the M14 is a semi, so we will see.

 

[Shooter45]

That's the benefit of the mounts, either Smith or Sadlak. They give your the platform to mount your rings attaching your choice of a scope. Can use Larue or similar quality rings of the correct height.

Also, if you're using the original stocks whether they are fiberglass or wood, you'll also need a cheek rest if using a scope. Those original stocks were designed for using peep sights and that only. You'll be getting a cheek weld on your jaw line if you do not have some type of rest when using a scope. You can either throw on a cheap strap on style, or drill the stock and add one. I'd drill the stock and add one myself as I tried the strap on style cheek rests and didn't like it at all. It constantly shifted and I had to reposition after each shot.

 

[taseal]

That's the benefit of the mounts, either Smith or Sadlak. They give your the platform to mount your rings attaching your choice of a scope. Can use Larue or similar quality rings of the correct height.

Also, if you're using the original stocks whether they are fiberglass or wood, you'll also need a cheek rest if using a scope. Those original stocks were designed for using peep sights and that only. You'll be getting a cheek weld on your jaw line if you do not have some type of rest when using a scope. You can either throw on a cheap strap on style, or drill the stock and add one. I'd drill the stock and add one myself as I tried the strap on style cheek rests and didn't like it at all. It constantly shifted and I had to reposition after each shot.

I will use the strap ones. That's what I use with my Remy 700. I have a method I make good cheek rests

I wish I could upgrade the stock, but it's unlikely I can get a stock approved (due to cost). I'm lucky I'm even getting something like this. there is going to be 2 snipers in the dept (myself and another officer), so we got 2 of them coming.

what ammo do they like?

 

[Shooter45]

It's just like any other rifle and they all have their own tastes. Being it is a military rifle, it was designed for the 147gr ammo or that area. I use 168gr Amax's out of mine and get sub moa in the accurate builds. I've had very good luck with South African and German Surplus but that's not a round you would want for police purposes.
You'll have to try a variety of different ammo to see what it likes specifically but I'd start with some 168's. Especially since your max expected range is 300yds.

 

[taseal]

It's just like any other rifle and they all have their own tastes. Being it is a military rifle, it was designed for the 147gr ammo or that area. I use 168gr Amax's out of mine and get sub moa in the accurate builds. I've had very good luck with South African and German Surplus but that's not a round you would want for police purposes.
You'll have to try a variety of different ammo to see what it likes specifically but I'd start with some 168's. Especially since your max expected range is 300yds.

Yeah, I won't be making ammo for this like I do for my personal rifle... (liability and that's alot of my own time to volunteer)

I will have to test out what works and what doesn't.

I'm really curious if I will be sent a select fire M14 or a Semi M14 from the armory. It is genuine GI M14 :hmm:

 

[bunsen27]

Do yourself and your department a favor and buy the GaP-10, AR-10, or LR-308 pattern rifle to use as a pecision weapon. The M14/M1A is a battle rifle first and foremost. With a lot of time and $$$ you can usually squeeze some acceptable level of precision out of it.

 

[Crus75]

The M14 is a good rifle, but depending on what they send you is the big Q. (model type, barrel condition, trigger, gas system, bolt, etc.) Honestly you may spend your budget simply adding a scope. The M14 rifle is not a great mounting system rifle, BUT the suggestions for mounts from previous posts are solid and will get you where you need to be..
The rifle is a beast and can be used for sniper work, however, you may be more inclined to use a bolt gun for your specific trade.. I don’t want to discourage it, but, if youre getting stuff for free, then the M14 is very capable, it just gets cumbersome imho scoped out with mags, etc. Your looking at 10 lbs plus mag plus scope. Nonetheless, you can do a couple things to accurize, its just not exactly cheap, and this is why I am leary for someone in your position.. if you had a Rem 700 Police or even a 700 SPS Varmint, that may be soemthing better off, but I get it.
When you get them, or if, take em down and clean them thoroughly inside out, then re-lube them , the M14 needs maintenance, and you will need to keep them good and clean. I assume your using govt issue ammo and that’s fine, the gun like 168-gr or 175-gr over 600 yds. For a “everything” round just use 175’s. But, nothing over. The rifle will eat brass for breakfast and that’s one reason for the maintenance part. When you get rifles also check the gas system, if the piston easily slides for and aft, you are good, if not, you may have to ake apart and clean the piston, etc. Which you will have to do anyway eventually ususally around 500-rnds. You can do whats called a shim job on the gas system port, which has to do with port pressure/timing, and if you reload, don’t use anything accept H4895. You can also bore out the flash suppressor as rain sometimes affects accuracy in this area. The operating rod if not a forged piece can sometimes be the initial replacement part as there is some ‘play’ in its mechanics, and sometimes may affect accuracy, if you change out an operating rod to a forged piece, you can spend 200 easily, and firing pins arent cheap either, those will likely be one of the first replacment parts but not for a while, but again its about what you get that is the x factor. So, now I’m typing you may want to move another direction as there is some ‘upkeep’ to be done on M14’s, and good parts are not cheap. Hope this helps..
I just saw your getting GI M14’s, so you should have quality forged parts. I’m sure your going to have some very decent rifles though... good luck!

ok now I got question, are your dept using FMJ's by law? I suspect so, but not sure. A typical good all-round bullet is a Sierra 168-gr HPBT. M14's love these out to 600. just cleaning up notes.. ha.

 

[K-tech]

I simply bedded my standard Springfield M1A and put a Sadlak industries scope mount and a USO 1-6 power on it. I have been getting 1" groups @ 100yds with Portuguese surplus ammo. I personally feel that if you are going to do more than that your better off buying a quality AR-10. M1A's were designed to be a battle rifle and to build them into a precision rifle is going to cost you. What kind accuracy are you looking to get @ 300yds?

 

[BCP]

I'm getting my police dept 2 M14s through an army surplus (section 1033) program. We want to turn these into LE Sniper rifles...

I have a loaded with a sadlak mount and a scope, when I position it properly on sandbags and shoot my best loads I can get near an inch until the barrel warms up. Depending on the rest I use and its position under the fore part of the stock POI and group size can change a bit.

Scope mounts are a pain. I had a springfield then a sadlak neither work 100%. The sadlak holds well but I have ejection problems with it. New ejector spring, cut eejector spring, new ejector, just when I think I have it set up to where it works it stops working and I have to fuck with it again.

All that for me means that it's a FUN gun but not the sort of thing I'm going to want to depend on, at least where a scope and anything less than 2" groups are concerned.

I have read accounts of how they were accurized for military work and it wasn't easy. They would use a high dollar barrel, heavy target stock, bedded, off the top of my head that would be 400-450 for the stock, 400-500+ for the barrel, the labor to do it (150-250?), and then their standard was 10 shots into under MOA @ 300 yards.

Sorry but I don't think you're going to get a sniper rifle out of them. I could be wrong, maybe you'll get one of those mythical sub-moa-all-day out of the box M1As I read about on the net but I doubt it....you may find that the group sizes it produces are frightening....

 

[Name Enough]

My Uncle Sam first gave me an M14 back in 69 and I loved the platform eversince. I have owned four of them (M1A) and currently only have one.
The M-14 was designed as a battle rifle not a sniper rifle. They are rugged and can take a beating.
Here is what I do with a M1A - in the order it gets done with approximate costs.
I use Arms #18 mounts on mine which is the lowest mount out there cost $180.
I shim or weld the gas system cost $10
Install a Sadlack National Match Spring guide and Tubbs Chrome Silicone spring cost $75.
Install a Sadlack National Match gas piston cost $50
Ream the USGI flashider to National Match Cost Spec $40 from Gunsmith

Now you have spent about $350 and you will probably need more than $150 for an optic.
I also really like the Schuster Adjustable Gas Plug another $45.
If you have a GI trigger you may be alright. I have one and it is a good two stage trigger breaking around 4.5 lbs
If you want a stock you need to think in terms of about $750.
Now for the bad news.
Getting 1 MOA was not too difficult but keeping the rifle 1 MOA may get fustrating. You will be tinkering a lot.
I love to tinker with my firearms.
What kind of private rifle did you say you had??

 

[taseal]

Do yourself and your department a favor and buy the GaP-10, AR-10, or LR-308 pattern rifle to use as a pecision weapon. The M14/M1A is a battle rifle first and foremost. With a lot of time and $$$ you can usually squeeze some acceptable level of precision out of it.

I wish buddy... we have other priorities right now that needs the budget more.

Just won't happen. Possibly in 2 or 3 years.

Lets start with the m14. Let's just be glad chief at least said ok to that.

 

[ArmyJerry]

An AR 10 would have been better for your department, send me the 14's and I will send you two AR 10's.

Unitize gas system, trigger job, Basset scope mount, front rails, get a medium weight Criterion installed and you should be good to go. Just keep in mind these are battle rifles, not bug busters. Whoever you issue the rifles to, needs to be read the fraternization policy because they will fall in love with the rifle and never want to give it up, ever, ever ever, it becomes personal, unlike any other weapon I ever owned

I see you are in SE Florida, I am heading over to Markham today and next weekend, you are more than welcome to come over and shoot a mag or two through my rig.

 

[BCP]

Lets start with the m14. Let's just be glad chief at least said ok to that.

Sell him on having them for a hell breaks loose situation like Katrina or LA Riots. You could do that with a scope mount, scope, and then watch some youtube videos on bedding and take a crack at it yourself.

Unless you have money out your ass you will not make them precise enough to use for realistic situations like people being held hostage in a vehicle by a bad guy or whatever.

 

[Crus75]

Whoever you issue the rifles to, needs to be read the fraternization policy because they will fall in love with the rifle and never want to give it up, ever, ever ever, it becomes personal, unlike any other weapon I ever owned

Agree 100% on that..
Not to takethis thread any further than it needs, but yes, it’s a battle rifle. It was not meant for scoping, and though you can scope it and attain very good accuracy these rifles can obtain, it is a battle rifle first. Personally, I don’t mount scope on mine because it just clusters it up and it looks better and functions better without, imho. The iron sights on the M14 are some of the best in the world, and if he’s sniping out to 250-300, your gonna hit what you aim at provided you put the practice in.. recoil isnt even that bad, though if you’re in a situation where you have a hostage being used as a shield, I wouldn’t try it, unless you have room to spare which in most cases it won’t unless the guy doesn’t know where the sniper is and he gets out of position for a few seconds. But I digress, it was meant to hit a human target and not meant to shoot tiny groups. And I will say it does well at that, center mass shots should be confident shots out to 250 in prone or bench or seated even imho. If you’re shooting at 100 with scope, to me its overkill with a M1A. You can make hits on paper plates consistent with practice with irons.
Jut my additional 2 cents.

 

[taseal]

The M14 is a good rifle, but depending on what they send you is the big Q. (model type, barrel condition, trigger, gas system, bolt, etc.) Honestly you may spend your budget simply adding a scope. The M14 rifle is not a great mounting system rifle, BUT the suggestions for mounts from previous posts are solid and will get you where you need to be..
The rifle is a beast and can be used for sniper work, however, you may be more inclined to use a bolt gun for your specific trade.. I don’t want to discourage it, but, if youre getting stuff for free, then the M14 is very capable, it just gets cumbersome imho scoped out with mags, etc. Your looking at 10 lbs plus mag plus scope. Nonetheless, you can do a couple things to accurize, its just not exactly cheap, and this is why I am leary for someone in your position.. if you had a Rem 700 Police or even a 700 SPS Varmint, that may be soemthing better off, but I get it.
When you get them, or if, take em down and clean them thoroughly inside out, then re-lube them , the M14 needs maintenance, and you will need to keep them good and clean. I assume your using govt issue ammo and that’s fine, the gun like 168-gr or 175-gr over 600 yds. For a “everything” round just use 175’s. But, nothing over. The rifle will eat brass for breakfast and that’s one reason for the maintenance part. When you get rifles also check the gas system, if the piston easily slides for and aft, you are good, if not, you may have to ake apart and clean the piston, etc. Which you will have to do anyway eventually ususally around 500-rnds. You can do whats called a shim job on the gas system port, which has to do with port pressure/timing, and if you reload, don’t use anything accept H4895. You can also bore out the flash suppressor as rain sometimes affects accuracy in this area. The operating rod if not a forged piece can sometimes be the initial replacement part as there is some ‘play’ in its mechanics, and sometimes may affect accuracy, if you change out an operating rod to a forged piece, you can spend 200 easily, and firing pins arent cheap either, those will likely be one of the first replacment parts but not for a while, but again its about what you get that is the x factor. So, now I’m typing you may want to move another direction as there is some ‘upkeep’ to be done on M14’s, and good parts are not cheap. Hope this helps..
I just saw your getting GI M14’s, so you should have quality forged parts. I’m sure your going to have some very decent rifles though... good luck!

ok now I got question, are your dept using FMJ's by law? I suspect so, but not sure. A typical good all-round bullet is a Sierra 168-gr HPBT. M14's love these out to 600. just cleaning up notes.. ha.

We aren't limited to FMJ. I will probably pick what we will use for the rifle. I was thinking we use 168 or 175 smk bullets. most common ones out there. if there is a company that makes ammo with amax rounds, I would probably prefer those.

 

[taseal]

I simply bedded my standard Springfield M1A and put a Sadlak industries scope mount and a USO 1-6 power on it. I have been getting 1" groups @ 100yds with Portuguese surplus ammo. I personally feel that if you are going to do more than that your better off buying a quality AR-10. M1A's were designed to be a battle rifle and to build them into a precision rifle is going to cost you. What kind accuracy are you looking to get @ 300yds?

that's all I'm looking for. LE sniping is mostly at around 100 yards. with no more than 300 tops. at 1 moa, I'm looking at a T zone shot no problem. That's why I will be happy with a 1 moa grouping.

 

[taseal]

An AR 10 would have been better for your department, send me the 14's and I will send you two AR 10's.

Unitize gas system, trigger job, Basset scope mount, front rails, get a medium weight Criterion installed and you should be good to go. Just keep in mind these are battle rifles, not bug busters. Whoever you issue the rifles to, needs to be read the fraternization policy because they will fall in love with the rifle and never want to give it up, ever, ever ever, it becomes personal, unlike any other weapon I ever owned

I see you are in SE Florida, I am heading over to Markham today and next weekend, you are more than welcome to come over and shoot a mag or two through my rig.

I got work today/tonight. I am off next weekend if you would like to get together sat or sun. I will shoot you a PM.

I wish I could get a GAP-10, but like I said a few times. it won't happen. Must work with what I have. if I was told 'here is your budget, get us this' then I would have gone GAP-10 with a HDMR. but I was told, "utilize this program, and get xx M16s, and 2 M14s". I don't make the calls

and if they were 'given' to us, I would gladly trade them. but they are 'borrowed' from the gov. you can get criminally prosecuted if you sell/give them. (another reason I don't want to spend too much on them)

My friend has a M1A on a JAE100. I've shot it... Great rifle, but when I shot it, I was inexperienced and couldn't really do anything impressive at 100 yards.

what rifle do you have that you will bring Jerry?

 

[taseal]

Sell him on having them for a hell breaks loose situation like Katrina or LA Riots. You could do that with a scope mount, scope, and then watch some youtube videos on bedding and take a crack at it yourself.

Unless you have money out your ass you will not make them precise enough to use for realistic situations like people being held hostage in a vehicle by a bad guy or whatever.

Well, that's why he said 'get the M14s, they're free'

if I can hold 1 MOA, I can def utilize it for hostage situations.

 

[taseal]

Agree 100% on that..
Not to takethis thread any further than it needs, but yes, it’s a battle rifle. It was not meant for scoping, and though you can scope it and attain very good accuracy these rifles can obtain, it is a battle rifle first. Personally, I don’t mount scope on mine because it just clusters it up and it looks better and functions better without, imho. The iron sights on the M14 are some of the best in the world, and if he’s sniping out to 250-300, your gonna hit what you aim at provided you put the practice in.. recoil isnt even that bad, though if you’re in a situation where you have a hostage being used as a shield, I wouldn’t try it, unless you have room to spare which in most cases it won’t unless the guy doesn’t know where the sniper is and he gets out of position for a few seconds. But I digress, it was meant to hit a human target and not meant to shoot tiny groups. And I will say it does well at that, center mass shots should be confident shots out to 250 in prone or bench or seated even imho. If you’re shooting at 100 with scope, to me its overkill with a M1A. You can make hits on paper plates consistent with practice with irons.
Jut my additional 2 cents.

That's how it is though....

Let me get this M14 first (it's coming. I'm not going to say I changed my mind, I don't want a select fire M14 anymore lol) then perhaps I can fight the battle for a R700. It's no AR-10 or anything, but might still work. I can always use my own scope if I must, or get a Bushy 3200 10x. (great scope for the money)

remember, these are not made for 1000 yards. I can hit a silhouette at 300 yards with open sights (or a red dot) with my army issue M4. I don't think it will be an issue.

Here is my friend's JAE100 M1A.... Must say, it's a hot looking rifle. lol

 

[pawprint2]

Check around with your National Guard, FL has some hard holding shooters, there is a good chance one or more armorers that have built many M14s for Guard teams are still around, and may be willing to help out a PD, for very little$$. The worst that can happen is you'll be told NO, but I'm betting you'll find some real help, from some really goooood M-14 Match builders. Good luck.

 

[taseal]

Check around with your National Guard, FL has some hard holding shooters, there is a good chance one or more armorers that have built many M14s for Guard teams are still around, and may be willing to help out a PD, for very little$$. The worst that can happen is you'll be told NO, but I'm betting you'll find some real help, from some really goooood M-14 Match builders. Good luck.

I'm also in the FL National Guard, and will be speaking to the right people. (almost even made it to the team lol)

 

[pawprint2]

I'm also in the FL National Guard, and will be speaking to the right people. (almost even made it to the team lol)

Hope this helps, also, as I'm sure you know, FL has some World Class Marine Reserve pistol shooters (bulls eye) guys such as Gene Pitts (I believe he was your state champ something like 17 times) and others, you may be able to get an old Marine armorer with m-14 match rifle building experience to square you guys away. If you will PM me and let me know how it went!

 

[ArmyJerry]

Double post

 

[ArmyJerry]

Just back from the range, I just have the basic M1A with muzzle brake and basset mount with a 10x Bushy elite tac. I prefer shooting this rifle with iron sights but I have the scope mounted, can do both without dismounting scope. I will be over there Sat or Sunday next week and again tomorrow(dialing in a new gun with some new hand loads), will have my AR's M1A and some bolt guns. If you have the M16's you might be better off dropping a 20" heavy barrel on a couple and getting some Viper PST's and some 77 grain pills, they will drive tacs, I have one, you are welcome to shoot that also.

For the non Fla members here, we have cut deep into the budgets in this state and on the local level, our state was hit pretty hard in the recession, nobody wants taxes to go up either so they cut everything, cops, fire, teachers included. Of all the places I have lived in the country I have to say our cops are pretty cool compared to the rest, they don't mess with you unless you are messing with someone else of just being a real dumbass.

I got work today/tonight. I am off next weekend if you would like to get together sat or sun. I will shoot you a PM.

I wish I could get a GAP-10, but like I said a few times. it won't happen. Must work with what I have. if I was told 'here is your budget, get us this' then I would have gone GAP-10 with a HDMR. but I was told, "utilize this program, and get xx M16s, and 2 M14s". I don't make the calls

and if they were 'given' to us, I would gladly trade them. but they are 'borrowed' from the gov. you can get criminally prosecuted if you sell/give them. (another reason I don't want to spend too much on them)

My friend has a M1A on a JAE100. I've shot it... Great rifle, but when I shot it, I was inexperienced and couldn't really do anything impressive at 100 yards.

what rifle do you have that you will bring Jerry?

 

[EricCartmann]

Real Deal M14s? Cool!!!!

Considering the Average LE "Sniper Shot" is probably about 60 yards. I would just keep them as is and learn to use the iron sites. Also might want to learn how to use that "select fire" lever, so you do not accidentally shoot full auto when you are trying to do semi.

 

[taseal]

Real Deal M14s? Cool!!!!

Considering the Average LE "Sniper Shot" is probably about 60 yards. I would just keep them as is and learn to use the iron sites. Also might want to learn how to use that "select fire" lever, so you do not accidentally shoot full auto when you are trying to do semi.

Yes. For sure. I will update you guys when it comes in. Have to call state Monday and make sure they got our paperwork

Is there a separate select fire and safety on the m14?

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

 

[ArmyJerry]

Yes there is, they might get rid of it before they send it to you though, not a very good full auto gun unless you are in a hole and the gun is on a bi-pod and sandbagged.

Yes. For sure. I will update you guys when it comes in. Have to call state Monday and make sure they got our paperwork

Is there a separate select fire and safety on the m14?

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

 

[taseal]

Yes there is, they might get rid of it before they send it to you though, not a very good full auto gun unless you are in a hole and the gun is on a bi-pod and sandbagged.

Would be cool. But for the purpose, it won't matter. Still won't mind it in there lol.

Now the M16s I know are full auto.

It's a very impatient waiting game. Lol



Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

 

[taseal]

There is a very small possibility I might be able to score a M21 instead of a M14... I believe its a national match version with an added scope (I will change the scope)

 

[taseal]

What are the different sage stocks? I see mod0, mod1, m39 etc...

Newer generation or something else? And looks like there is a good bit of waiting...

 

[Greg Langelius *]

First, get rid of the wooden stock. No wooden stock will remain stable through seasonal changes, and you will have a wandering zero/group size.

http://www.promagindustries.com/product-p/aam1a.htm, this is an cheap a solution as you will find, and if you go to Amazon, they list at about $227.00. They also allow cheek rest and LOP adjustment. Just a decent overall solution at an affordable price, functionally, the stock gives much the same capabilities as the M-21.

Forget about M-14 and precision. It's a battle rifle, a ready response to heavy firepower, but not a sniper implement. If fitted with a full-auto selector, recognize that full-auto was possible, but not accurate, with the M-14. Pretty much everything after the first round went over the top.

Not cheap: Amega M14-M1A Mount, but dependable, combine this with a decent quality reflex/dot scope, and use the rifle as a firefight/assault rifle with cast iron balls. If you can accept 1MOA to 2MOA accuracy (a realistic and practical goal with the M-14), this is a good approach.

For liability/reliability reasons as well as performance, use FGMM 168gr .308 Match.

The rest, leave alone. Get an M-14 multi-tool, muzzle protector/cleaning rod guide Cleaning Rod Muzzle Guide, Dewey, M14/M1A, gas system cleaning drills, and a gas cylinder wrench, and treat the gas plug with respect, not massive strength. Tools, M14/M1A Service Tools

As long as you understand the M-14's strengths and shortcomings, it will serve you well. Mine did for over a year in combat, back in the mid-60's.

If you must go the precision rifle route, check out the side mount scope mounts on the Sadlak site, but I'd not try to make the M-14 into an M-21. It's happier as the former.

Greg

 

[taseal]

First, get rid of the wooden stock. No wooden stock will remain stable through seasonal changes, and you will have a wandering zero/group size.

http://www.promagindustries.com/product-p/aam1a.htm, this is an cheap a solution as you will find, and if you go to Amazon, they list at about $227.00. They also allow cheek rest and LOP adjustment. Just a decent overall solution at an affordable price, functionally, the stock gives much the same capabilities as the M-21.

Forget about M-14 and precision. It's a battle rifle, a ready response to heavy firepower, but not a sniper implement. If fitted with a full-auto selector, recognize that full-auto was possible, but not accurate, with the M-14. Pretty much everything after the first round went over the top.

Not cheap: Amega M14-M1A Mount, but dependable, combine this with a decent quality reflex/dot scope, and use the rifle as a firefight/assault rifle with cast iron balls. If you can accept 1MOA to 2MOA accuracy (a realistic and practical goal with the M-14), this is a good approach.

For liability/reliability reasons as well as performance, use FGMM 168gr .308 Match.

The rest, leave alone. Get an M-14 multi-tool, muzzle protector/cleaning rod guide Cleaning Rod Muzzle Guide, Dewey, M14/M1A, gas system cleaning drills, and a gas cylinder wrench, and treat the gas plug with respect, not massive strength. Tools, M14/M1A Service Tools

As long as you understand the M-14's strengths and shortcomings, it will serve you well. Mine did for over a year in combat, back in the mid-60's.

If you must go the precision rifle route, check out the side mount scope mounts on the Sadlak site, but I'd not try to make the M-14 into an M-21. It's happier as the former.

Greg

That stock might work. I love the authencity of an 'authentic' rifle (woof or EBR) but I need it to work. That stock looks very nice, but I know promag (afaik) is not known for their stocks lol....

 

[taseal]

It looks like the archangel doesn't accept a bipod attachment? am I seeing that right? or is there a rail at the bottom to attach an Atlas?

 

[kenndapp]

delete....

 

[BCP]

There is a very small possibility I might be able to score a M21 instead of a M14... I believe its a national match version with an added scope (I will change the scope)

There were various m21s over the years you might get one with a mcmillan stock, nice barrel and a loo-poled or you might get wood stock with ancient redfield/leatherwood taped on top.

The archangel promag stock doesn't have a great rep.

 

[Deej]

First get the guns, clean them up and them go shoot them. If you don't have a lot of open sight experience there are some guys out there that will help and then you would know what you are dealing with. With the right target the difference between scope and sights is marginal. If know what are doing and at closer range.

 

[jtv3062]

superjc,

The theory behind the "better" guide rod is that the motion of operating spring is more consistent, causing all the other moving parts to behave in a more consistent manner. All the moving mass in the M14 (or M1 Garrand) design causes problems when it comes to accuracy. I'm not saying it can't be done, it's just difficult.

I don't have any conclusive proof that it (the guide rod) works, since I had everything (gas cylinder, bedding, trigger, and guide rod) done at the same time on my M1A. The guy that did the work for me has been building rifles for the NG service rifle teams around here for years, and does quality work. I asked him for suggestions, and he said I should go for the Sadlak guide rod, so I did.

I do know that the finished product works great. Objectively, you can do better with an AR 10, for less money. I just like the M14. Like LongRifle said, for the same money you can build one hell of a bolt gun. For me, it was a matter of personal preference.

Do you mean the spring guide, And not guide rod?

 

[taseal]

Jumping this thread back to life, because welll... the rifles are here. I have started a new thread, but will use this as a guide

New thread: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...4s-suggestions-i-need-budget.html#post2998858