Gunsmithing Need a certified gunsmith
- Thread starter kyle528
- Start date
What is a certified gunsmith? There is no certification for gunsmiths, you may be thinking licensed 'smiths but the license you get from the ATF has nothing to do with your gunsmithing skills it just certifies you to be able to participate in a gun business.
kyle, you're probably going to have to do your own homework and research. its not that hard to figure out. why don't you pm some of the smith's on this site if you have specific questions rather then just expecting someone to pm you for fun?
i was always told call every smith in your area and see if any will take you as an apprentice. Other then that look into schools, there are a few out there who offer gunsmithing as a certification/degree.
Where are you located in Ohio. What you looking to do. Work for someone or start your own business?
IF your truly willing to listen, I'll share what I know. (at least what I think I know)
Get a chair.
Get a chair.
IF your truly willing to listen, I'll share what I know. (at least what I think I know)
Get a chair.
Are you going to start with licensing, business plans, business structuring, financing, insurance, ATF inspections, how much 1 upset customer can cost vs hundreds of happy customers, ... oh wait. Let's just talk about machines / tooling and how you get filthy rich super quick as a gunsmith! .... wait a second.
I don't want to crush your dreams, but the most accurate thing that sticks in my mind with respect to all of the hassles is the joke: "What's the difference between a large cheese pizza and a gunsmith? A large cheese pizza can feed a family of four".
I maintain my licenses and business as a second job because I truly love firearms. I maintain my machines and spend way too much on tooling because I love building guns as well as computer parts, tractor parts, dozer parts, random parts, etc... In other words, if you go in to gunsmithing, it should be because you love what you are doing (you should be mechanically inclined and strongly enjoy basic math and trigonometry), don't do it "for the money or the fame" because you'll probably get neither.
That's part of it. I was going to take a different tract altogether. Something even more rarely shared in this trade.
oh gawd! dont do it.... hes not ready for that yet. he's just a boy
I'll take a crack at this. I'm offering this to anyone entering this trade from the perspective of making a living to support a family. Take it in that context only. It's my opinion after being engaged in this trade at a number of levels. Take it for what its worth to you and please don't take offense as I have not called anyone out in particular. (xcept for George G. )
You have LRI, GAP, SAC, and a host of others. ALL are after the consumer's dollar. We don't just compete with each other on this site. The list of competitors is almost infinite.
This industry is largely cottage in nature.
THAT MEANS:
Anyone with an FFL and some tools can enter into the trade. They can work out of a 1/2 million dollar building or they can work out of 200 square feet down in the basement. Once you enter this trade, all of those folks become someone your competing against. THEY DO have an advantage. Often this trade is not the primary source of income. It's a hobby to them. They can afford to basically take as long as they want on a job.
You cannot. Get that into your skull right now.
Your not an "artist". "Artists" are often unemployed, poorly groomed, guitarists sitting around in inner city Seattle bumming cigarette money in exchange for shitty Nirvana covers. . .
YOU are a tradesman. You WORK.
Remember this and you'll be 90% of your competitors from day one.
If your entering this as a business treat it as such. Gunsmithing academies teach 1960's practices because a lot of em teaching started back then. They failed to adapt, then they just failed. So, they got teaching jobs so that they can regurgitate the mediocrity that they slipped into.
That's a rude and bold statement. The truth often is. All one has to do is look around and see the names that keep regurgitating. What happened to those shops??? They died a slow miserable death. All the Bench Rest world championships in the world don't mean a thing if you can't cover expenses.
NEVER put "tool and die" maker on a resume. Just don't do it.
I'll bet a million dollars that NEVER happens to George Gardner. It's cause George is a smart muther trucker who runs a tight effin ship. Be insanely jealous of this fact and work your ass off to emulate and try to improve upon it.
It's 2014. You can fight it as long as you want. I encourage you to do so, there's more money for me to try and capture this way. Be a businessman. Don't be a guitarist.
It's the old saying, "Those who can do. Those who can't, teach."
You MUST automate your business. It's far cheaper and easier to control a half dozen CNC's manned by a couple really sharp guys than it is to manage 20 guerrillas. Every guy I know that starts in this and grows eventually gravitates towards automated equipment. You have to if your going to make a living. Time IS MONEY.
Remember, your not an artist. Your a businessman. If you build a great product, price it fairly, and make things right when they go wrong, you'll succeed.
Good luck and welcome to a wonderful industry.
C.
)You have LRI, GAP, SAC, and a host of others. ALL are after the consumer's dollar. We don't just compete with each other on this site. The list of competitors is almost infinite.
This industry is largely cottage in nature.
THAT MEANS:
Anyone with an FFL and some tools can enter into the trade. They can work out of a 1/2 million dollar building or they can work out of 200 square feet down in the basement. Once you enter this trade, all of those folks become someone your competing against. THEY DO have an advantage. Often this trade is not the primary source of income. It's a hobby to them. They can afford to basically take as long as they want on a job.
You cannot. Get that into your skull right now.
Your not an "artist". "Artists" are often unemployed, poorly groomed, guitarists sitting around in inner city Seattle bumming cigarette money in exchange for shitty Nirvana covers. . .
YOU are a tradesman. You WORK.
Remember this and you'll be 90% of your competitors from day one.
If your entering this as a business treat it as such. Gunsmithing academies teach 1960's practices because a lot of em teaching started back then. They failed to adapt, then they just failed. So, they got teaching jobs so that they can regurgitate the mediocrity that they slipped into.
That's a rude and bold statement. The truth often is. All one has to do is look around and see the names that keep regurgitating. What happened to those shops??? They died a slow miserable death. All the Bench Rest world championships in the world don't mean a thing if you can't cover expenses.
NEVER put "tool and die" maker on a resume. Just don't do it.
I'll bet a million dollars that NEVER happens to George Gardner. It's cause George is a smart muther trucker who runs a tight effin ship. Be insanely jealous of this fact and work your ass off to emulate and try to improve upon it.
It's 2014. You can fight it as long as you want. I encourage you to do so, there's more money for me to try and capture this way. Be a businessman. Don't be a guitarist.
It's the old saying, "Those who can do. Those who can't, teach."
You MUST automate your business. It's far cheaper and easier to control a half dozen CNC's manned by a couple really sharp guys than it is to manage 20 guerrillas. Every guy I know that starts in this and grows eventually gravitates towards automated equipment. You have to if your going to make a living. Time IS MONEY.
Remember, your not an artist. Your a businessman. If you build a great product, price it fairly, and make things right when they go wrong, you'll succeed.
Good luck and welcome to a wonderful industry.
C.
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Gunsmiths are unique in that there is no de jure "certification" like doctors, lawyers, etc. A hack with some files and a dremel can open shop.
What sets the best apart from the hacks is their training and knowledge. By that I mean nearly all the top smiths are top machinists (this is a precision industry after all). To be a top machinist you cant just "know" how to do something (which they teach at the local community college cnc class) but you also need to understand why in order to think critically and come up with your own solutions. This generally requires at least a college degree in engineering in my opinion.
What sets the best apart from the hacks is their training and knowledge. By that I mean nearly all the top smiths are top machinists (this is a precision industry after all). To be a top machinist you cant just "know" how to do something (which they teach at the local community college cnc class) but you also need to understand why in order to think critically and come up with your own solutions. This generally requires at least a college degree in engineering in my opinion.
Highschool graduate here. (barely!)
I have a mechanical engineering degree. Honestly, not much of it is applicable to gunsmithing, which is *theoretically* simple stuff. There's not much to analyze or quantify, which is what engineers do. I see people doing a lot of things I would consider "wrong" because they don't know any better, but it's minor stuff like misunderstanding screw torque or temperature effects, not the stuff that really matters when it comes to producing high quality work at a speed fast enough to pay the bills. It's all stuff that can be learned by anyone with the interest.
Compare screwing a tube into a hunk of steel and gluing it to a stock with something like building millions of cars or even one rocket. I'm not saying that gunsmithing is easy, as it's not. But it's conceptually very simple, so formal education isn't terribly useful. Knowledge, persistence and smarts are (because details matter), but I wouldn't worry about engineering degrees.
Compare screwing a tube into a hunk of steel and gluing it to a stock with something like building millions of cars or even one rocket. I'm not saying that gunsmithing is easy, as it's not. But it's conceptually very simple, so formal education isn't terribly useful. Knowledge, persistence and smarts are (because details matter), but I wouldn't worry about engineering degrees.
IF your truly willing to listen, I'll share what I know. (at least what I think I know)
Get a chair.
I have my chair. Do enlighten me I would greatly appreciate it
I know exactly what I am getting into. By no means am I a gunsmith now, and I do things as simple as building uppers for ar-15's and it puts fuel in my truck and feeds my shooting addiction. Now, by no means does building an upper qualify me as anything higher than anyone else, but that's how I'm getting into this. Buy a gun, do something to improve it, sell it, repeat. From what I've heard, that's how most smiths get into business, working on personal guns. I would like to own my own shop someday, but I know I will have to start out as an apprentice, and work my way up the food chain. I know it will be rough starting out, and I know a lot of smiths fail in the first year. This is exactly I am trying to feed up on the knowledge and personal experience of others who have been there and made it through that rough beginning and now have a successful career that will support a family.
There is no nationally recognized "certification" for a Gunsmith per say BUT there is several public colleges that offer 2 year A.S. degrees in the field of Gunsmithing which is as close as it gets.
Lassen Community College in CA
Yavapai Community College in AZ
Trinidad State College in CO
Pennsylvania Gunsmith School (Private School) PA
Those the ones been around a long time there are others out there and TRUST ME go to school FIRST then become a apprentice as it will get you actually working on guns rather than sweeping floors AND no major gun manufacturer will touch your application these days without an A.S. degree.
GOOD LUCK!!!!!!
Lassen Community College in CA
Yavapai Community College in AZ
Trinidad State College in CO
Pennsylvania Gunsmith School (Private School) PA
Those the ones been around a long time there are others out there and TRUST ME go to school FIRST then become a apprentice as it will get you actually working on guns rather than sweeping floors AND no major gun manufacturer will touch your application these days without an A.S. degree.
GOOD LUCK!!!!!!
I am shocked! I've read some of your technical posts over at benchrest where you went toe to toe with some of the well trained folks over there and held your own water so I thought otherwise. I guess you make up for your lack of a formal education with passion.
Reminds me of the time where I was working on a development with a electrical engineer and a electrician. The electrician was substantively more qualified and did most of the work while the engineer ended up being a rubber stamp.
I noticed many of the highly recommended gunsmiths had either a college degree in gunsmith or had prior military experience as an armorer, so to clarify, an engineering degree isn't required. If you plan on designing your own custom actions for general public distribution, however, you better have some formal training.
Think of nurse-physician, electrician-electrical engineer, paralegal-lawyer. Despite having overlapping duties, at the end of the day when your life/limb is on the line you generally want the latter (malpractice insurers have deeper pockets...)
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This I agree with. I won't say it can't be done without training because I know it has been successfully (In fact, I'd bet most of the common action in use today were originally designed by folks without modern training), but action design is something where a degree (or the equivalent knowledge) is actually useful. I would at least employ an engineer to assist in the design.
Education ≠ intelligence
I would apply for a two year program at one of the community colleges that offer gunsmithing. Montgomery Community College in Troy NC is probably the closest to you. I went there, so I'm a bit biased, but I do think its among the best of them. While you are waiting for your space to open up (one or two years), go get an education in machining. There are probably local community colleges that should be able to teach you that. Make sure they are teaching both manual and CNC machine operation. Learn to run a surface grinder. Not because you'll use a surface grinder much as a gunsmith, but because I think it helps teach you to be precise about your work.
Chad is not entirely incorrect about gunsmithing schools, but I do think he's looking at it the wrong way. They are laying down a base of knowledge upon which you decide where to focus your time and energy. One of the other nice things about going to a school is that it opens doors for you. You get to meet a lot of people in the industry. These are the people with the modern techniques you should get to know. That's where you get your current education, but as Chad said, its up to you to seek out that learning.
Good luck, and have fun!
Wes
Chad is not entirely incorrect about gunsmithing schools, but I do think he's looking at it the wrong way. They are laying down a base of knowledge upon which you decide where to focus your time and energy. One of the other nice things about going to a school is that it opens doors for you. You get to meet a lot of people in the industry. These are the people with the modern techniques you should get to know. That's where you get your current education, but as Chad said, its up to you to seek out that learning.
Good luck, and have fun!
Wes
I just walked in to a local GS, introduced myself, and kept coming back. Like herpes. Eventually you're bound to learn something. While I was in the Marines, I read up on machining and "knew" quite a bit, but had no hands on. I kept a mini-lathe in my barracks room, but had no experience on a mill, let alone CNC. In the last few months I've picked up quite a bit of useful info.
Meanwhile, I'm getting a degree in Mechanical Engineering. Necessary for the gun business? No. but it's "free" (Yeah yeah, I did my time.. whatever) from the gubment so I'm going to get the degree and maybe learn something there, too. If nothing else, it will provide a source of income to prop up a secondary smithing hobby.
Meanwhile, I'm getting a degree in Mechanical Engineering. Necessary for the gun business? No. but it's "free" (Yeah yeah, I did my time.. whatever) from the gubment so I'm going to get the degree and maybe learn something there, too. If nothing else, it will provide a source of income to prop up a secondary smithing hobby.
No one has told you to read The Art of War yet? Where the heck is WR?
One thing you should know that doesn't seem to get talked about much is that a good gunsmith needs to be able to teach. I'm not a pro, but just doing a bit of work for friends and family has made that perfectly clear. If you choose to build "custom" rifles, you're going to spend a whole bunch of time teaching people how to reload and possibly even shoot.
One thing you should know that doesn't seem to get talked about much is that a good gunsmith needs to be able to teach. I'm not a pro, but just doing a bit of work for friends and family has made that perfectly clear. If you choose to build "custom" rifles, you're going to spend a whole bunch of time teaching people how to reload and possibly even shoot.
Chad is not entirely incorrect about gunsmithing schools, but I do think he's looking at it the wrong way. They are laying down a base of knowledge upon which you decide where to focus your time and energy. One of the other nice things about going to a school is that it opens doors for you. You get to meet a lot of people in the industry. These are the people with the modern techniques you should get to know. That's where you get your current education, but as Chad said, its up to you to seek out that learning.
Is that base of knowledge worth the tuition? I question it.
Try an experiment. Take the tuition for one full year. Take a kid straight out of HS who has some ambition. Put his ass up in a cheap apartment, put an economical car in his parking spot, and deposit that same tuition fee in his checking account. If this magical person were to show up at my shop day after day and refuse to take "no" for an answer eventually I'm going to give up and put his ass to work. He's going to start with a spray bottle and a mop till there's nothing left to clean. Once I decide he's worth something he's going to be expected to arrive on time and not be texting on his damn cell phone half the day.
I promise in one year he's going to be 5 years ahead of the top shelf 1st year grad out of any school in this country that teaches this stuff.
I'd bet a nice steak dinner if this magical person did this very thing with any marquee shop here in the US (GAP, SAC, LRI, and any other 3 letter shop one can think of) the same thing would happen.
The intangibles that come with that experience can't be overstated enough. He's not going to see the day in/out struggles in a classroom. He's not going to get the ass chewing of his life when he goofs a project in school. Those lessons are tough because in ANY trade they have to be. Gunsmithing is inherently dangerous. Things have to be taken very seriously. I've got 4 bodies in this 3500 square feet. Were all in close proximity at any given moment. What happens if one of us phuks up and gasses up a barreled action only to be distracted by a phone call coming in? What happens when Kalli picks it up to make room for a package?...
Now take a shop like GAP, H/S Precision, etc where they have even more people running around. How much more difficult is it? I know at Dakota Arms and Nesika we watched a guy pepper himself 2x cause he was too dumb to single load a double rifle. (inertia triggers are a bitch ) He shot the face of the test barrel each time and was a bloody mess as a result.
How does a school orchestrate that scenario? Anyone that states "that can't happen in my shop" is just full of shit.
People ='s fuckups. Just accept that and do your best to manage it.
All I'm stating is you have to be on your toes and head on a swivel. Tough to teach that in a school.
Education NEVER replaces experience.
C.
PS: Never forget that the military structures training to the 6th grade level...
Is that base of knowledge worth the tuition? I question it.
Try an experiment. Take the tuition for one full year. Take a kid straight out of HS who has some ambition. Put his ass up in a cheap apartment, put an economical car in his parking spot, and deposit that same tuition fee in his checking account. If this magical person were to show up at my shop day after day and refuse to take "no" for an answer eventually I'm going to give up and put his ass to work. He's going to start with a spray bottle and a mop till there's nothing left to clean. Once I decide he's worth something he's going to be expected to arrive on time and not be texting on his damn cell phone half the day.
I promise in one year he's going to be 5 years ahead of the top shelf 1st year grad out of any school in this country that teaches this stuff.
I'd bet a nice steak dinner if this magical person did this very thing with any marquee shop here in the US (GAP, SAC, LRI, and any other 3 letter shop one can think of) the same thing would happen.
The intangibles that come with that experience can't be overstated enough. He's not going to see the day in/out struggles in a classroom. He's not going to get the ass chewing of his life when he goofs a project in school. Those lessons are tough because in ANY trade they have to be. Gunsmithing is inherently dangerous. Things have to be taken very seriously. I've got 4 bodies in this 3500 square feet. Were all in close proximity at any given moment. What happens if one of us phuks up and gasses up a barreled action only to be distracted by a phone call coming in? What happens when Kalli picks it up to make room for a package?...
Now take a shop like GAP, H/S Precision, etc where they have even more people running around. How much more difficult is it? I know at Dakota Arms and Nesika we watched a guy pepper himself 2x cause he was too dumb to single load a double rifle. (inertia triggers are a bitch
) He shot the face of the test barrel each time and was a bloody mess as a result.How does a school orchestrate that scenario? Anyone that states "that can't happen in my shop" is just full of shit.
People ='s fuckups. Just accept that and do your best to manage it.
All I'm stating is you have to be on your toes and head on a swivel. Tough to teach that in a school.
Education NEVER replaces experience.
C.
PS: Never forget that the military structures training to the 6th grade level...
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No disagreement Chad. Experience trumps education. I've learned just as much in a year outside of school as I have the two years out of school.
I would not say that going to a school is a requirement. Clearly not going to school can work to, because I'd be a fool to say LRI isn't a successful company. But for me, I'd do it again.
On the upside to the OP, it sounds like Chad just kind of offered you a job in the industry. SAC happens to be in the same state as you, too.
Edit: I drove through Sturgis on my way to Idaho, too. If I'm in the area again, you better believe I'm bringing a mop and a notebook.
On the PA school, note that they are a for profit school. You will probably spend more money there than you will at one of the community colleges. I've compared notes with guys that went there. You will be done faster, you don't have to do general education stuff, but you will spend more money for it. YMMV.
Wes
I would not say that going to a school is a requirement. Clearly not going to school can work to, because I'd be a fool to say LRI isn't a successful company. But for me, I'd do it again.
On the upside to the OP, it sounds like Chad just kind of offered you a job in the industry. SAC happens to be in the same state as you, too.
Edit: I drove through Sturgis on my way to Idaho, too. If I'm in the area again, you better believe I'm bringing a mop and a notebook.
On the PA school, note that they are a for profit school. You will probably spend more money there than you will at one of the community colleges. I've compared notes with guys that went there. You will be done faster, you don't have to do general education stuff, but you will spend more money for it. YMMV.
Wes
Whatever you do, don't leave chips on or around the mill... Especially if you've got some parts hanging around the shop.
Ohh, sad panda.
If there is one thing I learned at school, it was cleaning the machines. We did get yelled at about that, among other things.
Wes
If there is one thing I learned at school, it was cleaning the machines. We did get yelled at about that, among other things.
Wes
IF your truly willing to listen, I'll share what I know. (at least what I think I know)
Get a chair.
Wow, I may have to take you up on that someday. It's not that far a drive from the Twin Cities to Sturgis...
John
Not to be a dick, but basic reading comprehension is a requirement. (Signature block...)
Sorry, had to do it.
Kyle, Not sure about your timeline but I would highly recommend spending a week at one of the Summer NRA Gunsmith Schools. They are all great and will give you a taste of what goes on and a look at their programs. Look up those schools and look at their fulltime GS programs. All have some business education integrated but it is small, and as Chad said, they don't do much CNC. Check them out.
Whatever you do, don't leave chips on or around the mill... Especially if you've got some parts hanging around the shop.
We reserve this treatment for Todie unemployed Jarheads that insist on loitering in the shop.
-He's like a tick!
Heed Chad's advice. Don't waste your time on paying tuition for some useless degree that will actually teach you very little about anything. Take it from a guy who now runs a small business in a field completely unrelated to what he went to school for. I have a bachelors degree in Mechanical Engineering from a well respected university. It has been worth little more than the paper it was printed on for what I actually ended up doing. If you want to learn the trade, go do it. Don't waste your time at some educational institution letting them relieve your wallet of cash or worse yet put you into debt with some silly loan. Work, fail, learn. Rinse and repeat. You'll be way ahead of anyone going to college for gunsmithing. That's my advice.
