Need feedback on my groups

[rookie7]

I need feedback on the groups I'm getting with my rifle. I'm not happy with how it (and I) is doing, but I'm experimenting with different loads.

Equipment:

Remington 700 sps varmint .243win - everything is stock
X-mark trigger adjusted down to 3 lbs
EGW 15 moa base
Burris Rings
Nikon Buckmaster 4.5x14x40 mil dot

I was shooting on a public range at 100 yds. The bench was very solid. Some groups were shot using a caldwell lead sled solo, and others were shot using a caldwell benchrest bipod.

The day was cool with no noticeable wind.

The loads I tested today in order from left to right and top to bottom are:

1. 95 grain Nosler ballistic tip - 35 grs of imr 4064 - cci 200 primer - 2" c to c

2. Speer 100 grain btsp - 35 grs of imr 4064 - cci 200 - 1 3/4" c to c

3. Hornady 87gr BTHP - 39 grs of imr 4064 - cci 200 - 1 7/16" c to c

4. Hornady 87 gr bthp - 39 grs imr 4064 - cci 200 - 1 1/8" c to c (and the orange dot fell off)

5. Nosler 70 gr bal tip - 39 grs imr 4064 - cci 200 - 1 5/16"
c to c

6. Hornady 105 gr amax - 38.1grs of win 760 - cci 200 - 4 5/8" c to c

7. Hornady 105 gr amax - 38.1 grs win 760 - cci 200 - 4 3/16" c to c

8. Sierra 100 gr bt spitzer - 35 grs imr 4064 - cci 200 - 2 1/4" c to c

I have shot the 70 gr nosler bal tip with h335 and imr 4350 and got a little better results previously. I also have loaded the hornady 105 amax with 4350 and got similar results.

I think I had an ok day. I have had guns that shot much better so part is shooter error and part is gun.

Just looking for feedback on what you might see. I'm just trying all different powders that I have. My intentions is to try this gun at 1000 yds for fun once I get the right load.

Thanks in advance, and pic to come. I'm waiting on a website to upload it - unless someone has a better suggestion.

 

[Bloody_Tailgate]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

First of all get rid of the lead slead, I can't get any of my rifles to shoot under 1.5" with mine no matter how good I'm shooting that day. Get some good sand bags or a rear sand bag and bipod. Then see what it will do.

 

[rookie7]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

Bloody,

10-4. Image to target is below, thanks.

 

[sst04]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

Is your scope tight? Did you pull those loads out of thin air, or did you work each one up with each bullet? Here is your picture

 

[SScott]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

Wow,
If it were me, I would want to know if the rifle is capable of 1 moa. I would start with some Factory ammo.
Before you spend any more money on ammo, you need to verify that you have the scope set up properly, meaning your eye piece is set up and you have all of the parallex out of you scope for the range you are shooting, (head bob). You mentioned that you adjusted the trigger, depending on how mushy it is, it may or may not be your problem.
And last of all......You might just be a shitty marksman LOL, but hey thats why we are all here, to make ourselves better.
Good luck,
SScott

 

[Alderleet]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

Work on the upper center 2.

Also, why is it that every time i go to the range, i also get some dickball that puts on of their rounds on my target (referring to 17hmr)

I hate that shit.

 

[ToddKS]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

Rookie,

Just FYI, according to the Hornady manual, your 87gr load is 2 grains over max. Might want to back that one off a bit.

You should also consider reducing some variables. Too many bullets, no variation in powder charge?

As for factory ammo, factory ammo is just as big a guess as any of the loads you have already tried. You clearly already have the gear to reload, so you might as well conduct this experiment the cheap way.

If it were me, given the data provided, I would focus on the 87 grain bullet as that seems to be shooting the best. I would back that powder charge off to 34 grains of 4064 and work my way up in .5 grain increments and see what happens. Shoot a couple groups with each .5 grain increment and record your data. You will probably see the groups shrink and the at some point start to get larger. When they start to open up, you have gone past the optimum load for that powder/bullet/primer/OAL combination. In my experience my most accurate load is not usually the fastest possible load.

Also, you might consider switching to a Remington primer instead of the CCI. I personally have had better luck with the Remingtons for accuracy. Primer can make a big difference.

Whatever you do, the key is to manipulate only one variable at a time.

There are many other factors that one could consider, but I would start with these.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

dems sum purdy birdshot groups, what shotty ya yoosin agin?

 

[marduk185]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

are the action screws loose?

 

[TBass]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

One of the definitions of experiment is that it is a controlled test. I agree with ToddKS, you need to take as many variables out as possible to help isolate the issue.

 

[sniperaviator]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

Too many different bullets!
Ask around as to what is most popular for the type shooting you want to do (100 yd benchrest, 1000 yard benchrest, tactical, hunting). Now look up the manufacturers load data and start at the minimum load and load 6 rounds each 1 grain up to a little below maximum. Now go shoot those and see which group the best. You may want to do this again, narrowing it down. Eventually yoiu will find the amount of powder that gives most accurate groups.

Take notes on everything. Brass,Bullet, powder, OAL, temperature, wind, rest, location.

Once you have the powder, you can vary the OAL and see if that makes for smaller groups.

Now after doing that with one bullet, you can do it again with another bullet if you want.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

Too many bullets not enough different powder weight changes.
The 87gr bullets are likely to be the most accurate in your gun no matter the powder. The 105's are a no go. Leave them alone until you rebarrel to a 1-8 twist. The 105's are barely stable and the blow up of your pic show some signs of less than perfect round holes for those groups. You will likely find best accuracy from 70 to 90gr bullets. My best 243 loads use IMR4320 powder and CCI 250 primers.

 

[GorbashUK]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

This is very confusing.
Do some homework, find 1, I repeat 1 bullet that has good results out of your rifle. Buy some of these bullets, now do some more homework and find a decent powder that works well with the chosen bullet and your rifle. Now work up a load, start at lower velocities and work up in 1 gr jumps, find the sweetest group then start working in using 0.2 or 0.3 gr jumps to find that sweet load that gives the tightest group for your rifle. Once you have all that done you can start messing woth your OAL's to really get that group tight.
Ditch the ledsled thing, use a bipod or a decent front rest and a sand filled rear bag.
EASY lol

 

[rookie7]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

I appreciate everyone's input b/c that's why I posted it here (to learn something).

I don't have but a minute b/c I have got to head to work. I'll get back to this thread this evening.

The reason why I used the bullets and powder combination's I did is b/c that is what I have on hand. I have a lot more powder, but just chose 4064 b/c it would work with most of the bullets I have.

I did some research on long range projectiles for the 243, and on here I read more than once that the 9 1/4 factory twist rate out of the rem would stabilize the 105 amax which is why I bought them. I guess not so out of my gun.

Gotta go.

 

[rookie7]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

So yesterday I was pressed for time before I hit the range and I had no ammo. I looked thru my manuals and picked a powder that I have that would work for most of my bullets - imr 4064. I chose a mid level load except for the hornady 87 bthp where 39 grs is .2 under max in my third edition manual. Choosing the same powder and grain wt allowed me to spend minmal time calibrating my powder measure. The reason why I used every variety of bullet I had bc I figured the rifle would find one it liked.

I concur that it likes the 87 gr hornady best so far, but I hate that it won't shoot the amaxs.

I will say that I could see the stock flex and move when I had the rifle on the bipod on the bench. However I am still disappointed bc I expected more to be close to moa and at least one to be sub moa.

I'm not a bubble gummer, but I will go back and check scope mounts etc. The floor plate does seem to bind when tightening down the recoil lug screw. It seems the front of the floor plate fits too tight in the stock inlet.

My goal is to figure out what this gun is capable of before I drop money into it bc I can't afford a smith right now.

You all know what bullets I have and I have the following powders and primers: 4350 4320 4895 h335 w760 w680 tightgroup unique and that is all I can remember for now. In primers I have cci 200 and wolf large rifle.

Thanks

 

[GorbashUK]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

The gun probably will shoot amaxs when you get the load right. Also nobody has asked yet but are you a sub minute shooter? I see loads of guys at my range shooting awesome gear who couldnt hit water if they fell outta a boat. You maybe have to get used to the set up. Good luck anyway.

 

[TonyAngel]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

Rookie, I certainly mean no offense, but are you capable of shooting sub MOA groups? I mean, have you done it before with any rifle?

Again, I mean no offense, but SPS rifles are pretty common due to their low cost and from what I've seen, they are all shooters. At least MOA anyway. My rifle won't shoot over MOA with its worst load, as long as the projectile is appropriate for the barrel's twist.

Have you tried letting someone else shoot your rifle? I often do this during load development when I'm having an off day. We all have them.

Other than the above, follow the advise given by others. You have too many variable flying around. Find ONE projectile that will meet your needs and work with it. Find what you think is the best load for that projectile and record it. Then, if still unsatisfied (or just in the mood to continue to play), pick another projectile and do it over again. Personally, I use a Hornady Auto Charge to throw my powder. I prefer to use stick powders for my precision loads.

4064 is a very good powder, but you might also want to try Varget and Reloader 15 (for the heavier pills). Playing around with the primers could help too. You'd be surprised at the difference a primer can make.

I use CCI benchrest primers. I would like to try the Federals, but my firing pin hole is huge and I get some flow with the CCIs even with loads that don't come close to max, so the Federals will have to wait until I can remedy the situation.

BTW, what scope are you using? Are you sure that you aren't having a parallax problem? Your groups range from promising to all over the place and parallax errors will account for that. I've seen plenty scopes that have a 100 yard setting on the objective and the provided setting wasn't even close to where it needed to be to correct the parallax.

 

[rookie7]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

Tony,

You and two other people asked if I am a minute of angle shooter. I take no offense to that question b/c it is valid.

To answer your question yes I am, but like everybody else I have good and bad days.

I've been shooting for 34 years - got my first BB gun when I was 6. I've been reloading for 26 years - still have my first RCBS single stage press.

I haven't reloaded and shot hardly any in the past 15 years though b/c I got heavily involved in archery around 1994. I put down the rifle and bowhunted only for big game - which I still do.

I want to shoot something at 1000 yds and here it go "ding". The reason why I started reloading was b/c I wanted the most accuracy out of my hunting rifles I could get. Back when I hunted with a gun I wouldn't hunt with a rifle unless it shot moa or sub-moa.

I had a ruger stainless m77mkII in .243 with the skeleton stock that loved 95 grain nosler bal tips. The best it shot with them 7/16" group at 100 yds. Not with a bipod, but with a wooden homemade version similar to the lead sled before we all knew what a lead sled is.

Other rifles I've owned that shot sub-moa were: 2 more ruger m77s in .243, a remington model 700 camo-synthetic (in the original mossy oak) in .7mm/08, a TC Contender in .30/30, and a Winchester model 70 classic stainless in .308. Oh, and I have had 2 remington model 7s in 7mm/08 over the years ( the 18 1/2" barrel versions) and both of them shot sub-moa to moa. All rifles shot well with my handloads.

I'm not bragging, but with the handle "rookie" I thought I'd clarify it a little. I can be stupid - ask my wife - but I'm not an idiot.

I will focus on the hornady 87 grain bthp and load it with the starting loads with all the appropriate powder I have. I'll do 2 sets: one with the cci primers and the other with the wolf. I'll try to pick up a variety of primers when I can. I have THOUSANDS of the cci's, but only 2K of the wolf. I don't want them to go to waste.

Since right now the AMAX isn't going to be my long-range pill what do ya'll recommend? The 105 gr amax has a BC of .500 - which I consider hard to beat.

I've got a spot on my dad's farm where it adjoins my brother-in-laws place where I can lay down on a hill and get an honest 1000 yd shot. I've got a big piece of 1/2" steel waiting to be pounded once I get this right.

I've thought about going ahead and getting a B & C medalist b/c if something did turn out wrong with my rifle I'd still replace it with another 700 sa unless I had it re-barreled.

Can you educate me some more on scope parallex? And a few folks mentioned was it set up right. I put it on it's highest power then slide it back until I got full field of view with my head naturally on the stock. The scope has side focus, and I put it on 100 b/c I was shooting at 100 yds. Again, egw base and burris rings.

Thanks again. I appreciate the education I have received on this site. I'm not sniper, or a tactical guy. Just a fella that was raised on a farm - hunting, fishing - who likes to shoot stuff!

Once myself and some friends were teaching a bowhunter's ed class at Ft. Gillem and the head instructor asked the question "Why do you like to bowhunt?". A soldier looking like he was wired to explode stood up and answered "Because I like to kill shit sir!". Yep, me too.

 

[RJ1670]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

I might have missed it but, what scope are you using?

 

[boudin]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

My SPS (also .243) went from being a 1/2 min shooter to just shy of 3 min when I put it on the bi-pod the first time. I quickly realized the barrel was going to have to be floated before trying that again. Have you taken the stock off your rifle and seen the two pressure pads at the end of the forearm, which contact the barrel? When you rest your rifle out near the end of the forearm, you're going to drastically affect barrel harmonics and there'll be no telling where the shot's going to break. The same goes for shooting off a bag or anything of the like... you'll want to have the rifle supported under the action rather than the barrel, as much as possible to avoid interfering with the movement of the barrel.

The best two loads I've ever worked up for my rifle were:

1) 85 Gr. Sierra Gameking .02" off the lands, 36 Gr. IMR 4064, Fed Gold Match primers, Lapua brass.

2) 100 Gr. Sierra Gameking .01" off the lands, 36 Gr. IMR 4064, Fed Gold Match primers, Lapua brass

I'll be testing some 105 Gr. Amax loads on Thursday, all .01" off the lands, 29.0-31.0 Gr. IMR 4064 in 0.5 Gr. increments, CCI 200 primers, and Lapua brass. I'll let you know if I find a good load.

 

[rookie7]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

RJ,

Nikon Buckmaster 4.5x14x40 mil dot with side focus

 

[RJ1670]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rookie7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RJ,

Nikon Buckmaster 4.5x14x40 mil dot with side focus</div></div>

What about base and rings? And are they torqued properly?

 

[rookie7]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

base is a egw 15 moa, and the rings are burris - I can't remember what model but they have the big knobs on the side. I do not have a torque wrench that reads in pounds per inch so I snugged them by hand/feel

 

[ToddKS]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

Rookie,

For the purpose of this experiment I would remove the bipod from the equation. The fact that you mention the stock flexing when using the bipod indicated stock stiffness may be a problem. Get some good sandbags (front and rear) or a front rest with a rear bag and try that.

Also, +1 on floating the barrel. I had not thought about the famous Remington bump. That needs to be removed.

Beyond that, my original recommendation stands. Focus on the 87 grain bullet with 4064 and see where that goes.

 

[TonyAngel]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

Rookie, it appears that at least a couple of us were responding at the same time when we asked about your shooting skills. Sorry, but I had to ask. We've all seen guys with the best of equipment swearing that they held the gun steady.

Anyway, I mentioned the parallax because I've seen plenty of scopes that have adjustable parallax with labeled settings like 100 yards, 200 yards, etc. and people just dial in without without actually checking to see if the parallax error has been removed using that setting. This could really hurt when you have a new rifle and haven't quite developed the feel for it. Checking for parallax error is easy. I just put the rifle on my bags with the cross hairs on a target. Then, without touching or disturbing the rifle, look through the scope and move your head around a tad bit. If you see the cross hairs moving relative to the target, you are experiencing parallax error. When you have the error removed, the cross hair should stay on the target when you move your head. Parallax is more of a problem for some than others. For those with a super consistent cheek weld, it isn't as big a deal. For a guy just getting the feel for a rifle, it may be a bigger problem.

A while back, I had a Leupold that had to be set on something like 150 yards to take the error out at 100.

For a guy with your shooting experience, it shouldn't be hard to get a good load going. I'd suggest checking your equipment just to be sure that all is in order, settle on a bullet to experiment with and take a friend with you next time. When I'm having a bad day, it's usually a day on which my buddy is shooting like a champ.

Although shooting from a good set of bags is best for load development, I shoot pretty well from a bipod. I just don't do it from a concrete table. I'll only use a bipod if I can get the feet into the dirt and dig them in. When I shoot, I put forward pressure on the legs to keep the bipod bouncing around. Just this past weekend I shot at least a few .5 MOA groups off of a bipod, so it can be done.

Good luck bud. I hope that you're able to get things sorted out with that rifle.

 

[rookie7]

Re: Need feedback on my groups

It's been awhile since I've visited this thread but I have a few positive developments with my rifle.

I bought a B & C varmint/tactical medalist for it, and I got a set of Caldwell Dead Shot sandbags. I like shooting off of the sandbags much more than the lead sled.

I ordered some 95gr SMK and Berger 95gr VLD target.

I used Varget a few weeks ago with the SMKs and they hovered around 1". One group was 3/4" and the others were 1 1/16" to 1 1/4".

Last weekend I shot the Berger's with 33 grains of 4064 and a Remington 9 1/2 primer - using assorted common brass.

Best 4 shot group was 9/16". The rifle is now showing promise, and my confidence in it is increasing.

I will say my shooting is getting a little better too. I'm doing better with follow through and I get a really good check weld with the B & C.

To be honest though, I think I have been shooting this rifle too fast and not allowing enough time between shots.

Last week's group was in a little bit of rain too with the wind blowing from my left to right at 10 to 15 mph.

If someone can post the pic for me I'll get it up of the target.

Thanks