Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

[elfster1234]

I'm seriously getting hit up side the head with PM's and posts about doing a long distance shootout......... but I want to do it right the first time and I'm looking for ideas, advice, and suggestions of how I want to set this up so everyone is happy with it, then I'll most likely take a combination of the best ideas into one BAD A$$ LONG DISTANCE SHOOTOUT...

I don't mind running these shootout threads as they don't take too much time <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">(thank god for copy / paste), </span></span>but if I start a semi-auto long distance shootout..... should it be just for semi-auto or should we let bolt action's in the mix?? I can't run two of them and if we do mix it up, then it will need to go into the range report section most likely.... and to be honest with you all, I don't own a bolt action, hence the reason behind my semi-auto posts.


Also, not everyone has ranges over 100yards plus.. especially ranges over 600yards... So I was thinking a nice mix between the two around 300yards? Maybe something like the 30round 6groups but at 300yards?


What do you all think. Any possible twists you might like to see for the LONG RANGE shootout?

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

I can get to 1200m at local ranges...

I think 600yds would be cool, but I can understand the issue it may be for others.

Admittedly after 800m I need to swap my 1.1-8x CQBSS if I'm shooting something than E type steel.


I'm cool with mixing it up with the bolt guns -- to me the caliber issues are more of a deal than the action. I'll shoot with a bolt gunner in .308/7.62, but at longer ranges, the .260, 6XC etc folks have an advantage.

 

[elfster1234]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

would you like to see something like the same 6group / 30shots, but at 300yards or 600yards type of thing... any suggestions?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can get to 1200m at local ranges...

I think 600yds would be cool, but I can understand the issue it may be for others.

Admittedly after 800m I need to swap my 1.1-8x CQBSS if I'm shooting something than E type steel.


I'm cool with mixing it up with the bolt guns -- to me the caliber issues are more of a deal than the action. I'll shoot with a bolt gunner in .308/7.62, but at longer ranges, the .260, 6XC etc folks have an advantage.

</div></div>

 

[Nukes]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Admittedly after 800m I need to swap my 1.1-8x CQBSS if I'm shooting something than E type steel....</div></div>

Thanks again for your good work on my rifle. It shoots like a dream.

I am curious to hear your thoughts on your Mark 8 1.1-8x CQBSS, especially considering marginal light conditions with the 24mm objective. Knowing of your affinity for the H59 reticle, I assume you are shooting the H27D reticle in the CQBSS.

Do you think this scope is a worthy match (or underpowered) for a 6.5 Grendel in an AR platform.

 

[sinister]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

300 yards isn't really long range.

Somewhere between 500 and 800 yards will be gun/action neutral if your baseline is a 308 and you're not putting out or engaging multiple or moving targets.

Possibly a "Never mind," as I see from the other two threads you're interested in pure cold, consecutive shot group size (like benchresting)?

 

[elfster1234]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

good to know. thanks for the info.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">300 yards isn't really long range.

Somewhere between 500 and 800 yards will be gun/action neutral if your baseline is a 308 and you're not putting out or engaging multiple or moving targets.

Possibly a "Never mind," as I see from the other two threads you're interested in pure cold, consecutive shot group size (like benchresting)? </div></div>

 

[Jon Lester]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

For me, I can do to 1700 here at home by myself, but 600 on a public range, wanting to see your own progress as you go and keeping the barrel cool while Joe Deerhunter and AK Bobby are set on blasting continuous at the 75 berm......May be a tuff spectacle to undertake.

 

[PowerstrokeOBX]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

If you mix it up with bolts have 2 catagories bolt and semi.

I'll volunteer to help organize and do math.

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nukes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I am curious to hear your thoughts on your Mark 8 1.1-8x CQBSS, especially considering marginal light conditions with the 24mm objective. Knowing of your affinity for the H59 reticle, I assume you are shooting the H27D reticle in the CQBSS.

Do you think this scope is a worthy match (or underpowered) for a 6.5 Grendel in an AR platform. </div></div>

What do you want to do, most of the time I run my SR as a 'heavy carbine' the 0-800m arena. Not as a precision gun, so I prefer the CQBSS with the H27D. Marginal Light - I run NV, either NODS and my LA-5, or for static a PVS-30 or PAS-31.

For precision I have a 3-18x Mk6 with the H58, or a 3-15 Premier from David Tubb with his DTR reticle.

 

[Nukes]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

PM sent

 

[308sako]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

I do not think that bolt actions should be going head to head with semi's.

I do think that all rifles should be in a class based upon their caliber, well actually the cartridge they are chambered for.

 

[elfster1234]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

If some of you guys really want to do this, then the input that I could really use would be what targets, ideas on going for points or groups or what not. If we go for target points, then what targets to use in order to keep the thread consistant and how many shots taken. Targets would need to be easy to get and cheap. Stuff like that.


I'm even up for people telling me not to waste my time. I'll take all and any info. I just think it would be fun as some people are asking me to do this.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">So far, my ideas:</span></span>

This is what I'm thinking so far. I think I've got a really smart solution to have one thread while keeping both bolt actions and semi auto segregated on the same forum OP, but it would need to be listed in the range report section of the hide. Something like a semi auto vs bolt action, but not really. Would have semi-auto top ten & bolt action top ten on the same forum OP. All calibers welcome as it is only 500yards and not 1000yards. Yes, bolt actions will have an advantage, but there will be two different top ten listings on the same original posting.. One for bolt. One for semi auto. I can't break it down by caliber I don't think. It would be just too much info to keep track of. Just semi auto vs bolt. This is more fun than anything really.. If anything, it will really show which calibers perform the best as some people that do this all the time already know the answer to this question. Remember peps, this is all in fun anyway.

Next, as someone said... 300yards really is not long range, but not everyone has 1000yard range either... I'm thinking 500yards. Also, using this offical NRA Official High Power Rifle Target MR 500 Yard Slow Fire Paper Package of 25 that you can purchase off midway usa or somthing close to this target with points listed. Will take any suggestions on the type of point rated target. Then making maybe 10 to 15 shots?? (more like 20 to 25 shots??)... Obviously, bullseye will have the most points.

This target is really for example purposes only:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/680430/...r-package-of-50

 

[redirt78]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

That target with a 2.5 or 3" orange sticker in the center might be cool. Cheap, easy to find, easier to make out the bullseye at 500

 

[CanSniper]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

^^^^ I like this elf, would be easy to score and straight forward. I just wonder if 15 shots would be a large enough sample size to eliminate the "just got lucky" factor, especially with a bolt gun. IDK, sounds like alot of fun.

 

[elfster1234]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

I'm thinking about using this cheap set of NRA targets, you can put your own 2" to 3" peal and stick target in the middle, and maybe 20 to 25 shots?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redirt78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That target with a 2.5 or 3" orange sticker in the center might be cool. Cheap, easy to find, easier to make out the bullseye at 500 </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanSniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">^^^^ I like this elf, would be easy to score and straight forward. I just wonder if 15 shots would be a large enough sample size to eliminate the "just got lucky" factor, especially with a bolt gun. IDK, sounds like alot of fun. </div></div>

 

[elfster1234]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

and if the semi auto's actually started to do better than the bolt actions with higher points, then damn!! those bolt action guys need to get their $hit together! LOL.... we can all work as a team! LOL


Not only have top ten per bolt action and semi auto.... BUT will have a grand total point AVERAGE between semiautos vs bolt action.. now that sounds like it could be a good time.

 

[elfster1234]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

so for example, say I take 20 shots...

1st shot = 10points
2nd shot = 6points
3rd shot = 7points
and so on up to 20 total shots. say I end up with 130 total points for pure example.


then, we add up all the points for the semi auto top ten (say we come up with 1450 total top ten points divided by 10 top ten = 145 point average for semi autos.. something like that....

obviously bolt actions would have the same deal... say they only have 9people listed so far, we just divide the total points by 9 for the average points..

 

[Mcarnell82]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

Sounds like a good test. I'll have the 308 ready for this one...

 

[CanSniper]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

I like the NRA targets. Redirt slipped his post in on me. We could always put a sticky on for a aim point if you wanted but the NRA target would be easy to score. I am excited about this one though! My 338 lapua is just screamin to come out and play.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

I don't have a semi-.308 to use, but should towar the end of the year. However, I'd suggest a single NRA target at 600 yards and shoot all 20/30/40 rounds at it. That'll give a better indicator of the accuracy of she shooter and rifle/scope combination. Then consider, do you simple want a group or a score? To me, score tells more what the shooter is capable of. It doesn't matter how consistently a person can miss their target with a tight cluster.

 

[Unknown]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

There really isn't a problem with bolt and semi-auto rifles shooting the same course of fire. Just have the scoring system recognize who shoots which kind of action. Bolt guns shoot against bolt guns, semi-autos against semi-autos. That scoring system has worked really well for us, and saves lots of grief as we no longer have to try to devise different courses of fire for each rifle.

You might want to consider the following groups, but in reality, the ways you can separate groups is nearly endless:

1. Bolt rifles
2. Semi-auto
3. Iron sight

Or you could go even further:
1. Bolt, iron sight
2. Bolt, with optic
3. semi-auto, iron sight
4. semi-auto, optic
5. magnum semi-auto, iron sight
6. magnum bolt, optic
7. magnum semi-auto optic
8. magnum, bolt, iron sight

The second group was put in just to demonstrate how having so many groups can become ridiculous. I suggest having no more than 2-4.

 

[CanSniper]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

I dont think caliber would play to much of a difference at 500 yards, especially since you pretty much get to chose the conditions you get to shoot in. You dont have to shoot your 308 against a 338 Lapua in 30mph cross winds.

Just good old fashioned bolt vs semi

 

[elfster1234]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

so, are you all OK with the NRA 500yard target I have listed above with maybe a 2" to 3" high contrast peel and stick type target in the middle? If so, then I'm going to get this rolling very soon. I think I have a good solid idea so far.

how many total shots then? 20? 25? 30?

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

Distance can always be negated by target size... In WA there's but a handful of ranges that can even get out to 550 yards, but if you're shooting a 1-2 MOA or even sub-MOA target then it levels the playing field whether it's 200, 500, or 1K yards. Just an opinion though...

 

[sinister]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

You can do a smack-talk 500-yard postal match, bolt/self-loader neutral by putting out two NRA 500-yard targets side-by-side.

Left target is ten shots, ten minutes, slow fire for score (ties broken by Xs or group size). This gives a guy lots of time to be clean and deliberate.

The right target is ten shots in 70 seconds including a reload (again, ties broken by X-count and then group size). This mirrors the NRA National Match Course (minus starting from standing).

Group 1 measures wind-reading and finesse. The other does the same with a time restraint. Saves you money from having to buy Shoot-and-Sees as well.

 

[elfster1234]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

i actually like this idea, only problem is how do we know for a fact people are staying under the time clock... i do kinda like the idea tho... hmmmmm, thanks for the suggestion.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can do a smack-talk 500-yard postal match, bolt/self-loader neutral by putting out two NRA 500-yard targets side-by-side.

Left target is ten shots, ten minutes, slow fire for score (ties broken by Xs or group size). This gives a guy lots of time to be clean and deliberate.

The right target is ten shots in 70 seconds including a reload (again, ties broken by DX-count and then group size). This mirrors the NRA National Match Course (minus starting from standing).

Group 1 measures wind-reading and finesse. The other does the same with a time restraint. Saves you money from having to buy Shoot-and-Sees as well. </div></div>

 

[sinister]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

You can't guarantee anything for a postal, write-in, or post-it match. Closest is to have a witness score and sign the target (shooter doesn't/can't score his own -- like any organized match).

Chances of cheating are proportional to the prize or bragging rights.

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

I like Sinister Dave's idea...

 

[elfster1234]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

good points sinister, I'll put some thoughts into it.

what does everyone else think about this? see sinister's post listed above.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't guarantee anything for a postal, write-in, or post-it match. Closest is to have a witness score and sign the target (shooter doesn't/can't score his own -- like any organized match).

Chances of cheating are proportional to the prize or bragging rights. </div></div>

 

[Grump]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

Having just located another 500+ spot to shoot,

and having participated in postal matches in years past,

and considering that the official NRA 500-yard MR target that I'm familiar with is the 600-yard, just with the aiming black out to the 8- instead of the 7-ring,

AND having shot a lifetime high at 600 at Camp Williams one year while wondering just whatinnaheck happened to my zero...

AND considering that the MR at 600 has a 2-MOA 10-ring,

I would suggest using the SR target instead, at 500, or a bit more of a challenge. Black to 9-ring from the 200-yd version or black to the 8-ring for 300-yd version would make no difference to me. I have at least one of each in stock.

However, if you want to have it be an X-count match and be able to compare with the regular Service Rifle matches, go ahead and use the MR target!!!!! I would just suggest that no spotting of hits be allowed. Anyone could check zero first, but once the first round for score goes downrange, NO target inspections except for what you can see through the scope or your spotting scope.

In another thread, I was going to suggest some sort of a 20-shot match. This one is a good idea.

 

[sinister]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However, if you want to have it be an X-count match and be able to compare with the regular Service Rifle matches, go ahead and use the MR target!!!!! I would just suggest that no spotting of hits be allowed. Anyone could check zero first, <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">but once the first round for score goes downrange, NO target inspections except for what you can see through the scope or your spotting scope.</span></span></div></div>
I like the way you think!

SR-Cs would be cheapest, and they may be available from Midway and Brownells:

MR-C and MR-C1 replacement centers are $57.25 per 100 from American, not counting shipping. There may be better deals out there for LE or FFL buyers.

MR-C:

MR-C1:

 

[elfster1234]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

that's what I'm kinda thinking so far.... x-count match with MR target with your note of no spotting of hits / no target inspections but for scope / spotting scope once first round goes down range..

how many rounds do you think? how much time allowed? no timer?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However, if you want to have it be an X-count match and be able to compare with the regular Service Rifle matches, go ahead and use the MR target!!!!! I would just suggest that no spotting of hits be allowed. Anyone could check zero first, <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">but once the first round for score goes downrange, NO target inspections except for what you can see through the scope or your spotting scope.</span></span></div></div>
I like the way you think!

SR-Cs would be cheapest, and they may be available from Midway and Brownells:

MR-C and MR-C1 replacement centers are $57.25 per 100 from American, not counting shipping. There may be better deals out there for LE or FFL buyers.

MR-C:

MR-C1:

</div></div>

 

[Gr4vitas]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

Why wouldn't you use a target we can print out printer paper? Much cheaper than any other option.

 

[Grump]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gr4vitas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why wouldn't you use a target we can print out printer paper? Much cheaper than any other option. </div></div>

Well, there's also the group buy option?

To realistically accommodate varying skill levels and whatever level of bad luck and bad wind calls is surely to happen, 500 yards is about 40% too far for a regular single sheet of paper target. Or you would need to combine that sheet with an IPSC or IDPA silhouette, or a Front Sight training target if you want a real head instead of just a neck on the larger part of the target.

Is this envisioned as a traditional postal match where we buy the target(s) from the stat office? If so, go with MR-1. If we get our own targets, either MR center at the shooter's option since the rings are the same. If not, I guess we would need to find/generate a multi-page "tiled" file for those without easy access to print their own. Lots of ink/toner!

Just remember it's 17.667% easier at 500.

I'd suggest doing it once with an aggregate time limit of 1 minute per shot. If it's popular, do it again with a 1-minute time limit for a 10-round string with a mandatory reload. Or no reload other than dictated by your crummy choice of rifle and mag? Garands reload faster, you know...

 

[Grump]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

Scratch the CoF suggestion above. I like Sinister's idea of two targets, one SF and the other Sustained Fire. It's just not fast enough for me to feel good calling it "rapid" fire, even shaving 10 seconds off the NRA prone CoF.

NRA dropped the from standing part, didn't they, while DCM still has it for Service Rifle??? Been out of that game too long. Me, I totally believe in taking it from standing, just use a shot timer and subtract one highest-value hit for every shot over time. 60 seconds though!

 

[elfster1234]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

well, sounds like everyone really likes sinister's idea and I'm thinking that is what I'll do unless someone else has something else to say, but I would like to go over some stuff with sinister first before I produce the original post in the range report section of the hide. Will be Semi auto top ten, and bolt action top ten, with a somewhat friendly semi auto vs bolt action twist i'm thinking just for shits and giggles, all on the same original post.

*************************************
You can do a smack-talk 500-yard postal match, bolt/self-loader neutral by putting out two NRA 500-yard targets side-by-side.

Left target is ten shots, ten minutes, slow fire for score (ties broken by Xs or group size). This gives a guy lots of time to be clean and deliberate.

The right target is ten shots in 70 seconds including a reload (again, ties broken by X-count and then group size). This mirrors the NRA National Match Course (minus starting from standing).

Group 1 measures wind-reading and finesse. The other does the same with a time restraint. Saves you money from having to buy Shoot-and-Sees as well.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Scratch the CoF suggestion above. I like Sinister's idea of two targets, one SF and the other Sustained Fire. It's just not fast enough for me to feel good calling it "rapid" fire, even shaving 10 seconds off the NRA prone CoF.

NRA dropped the from standing part, didn't they, while DCM still has it for Service Rifle??? Been out of that game too long. Me, I totally believe in taking it from standing, just use a shot timer and subtract one highest-value hit for every shot over time. 60 seconds though! </div></div>

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

I don't think a gas gun should have to reload -- just my 0.02

I mean I have a gas gun so I don't need to do annoying things like reload mags all the time, or cycle a bolt

 

[sinister]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

If you do the left-slow fire and right-rapid/sustained fire you can be gun/action neutral.

Gamesmanship vice combat: gun on the sand bag or bipod, shooter standing. Time starts at "Go," and you get into position and fire. This tests gun's fit to the shooter, natural point of aim, position and breathing, and trigger control. Repeat for the right target with a 70-second time limit.

70 seconds is neutral for stock top-loading 700s, Winchester 70s, Rugers, etc. (no clip-slot loading if you've got a scope since it's in the way). If you've got a 5, 10, or 20 shot magazine you just plug it into the gun and go. Reloads during the rapids on your own (five and five, a ten, or ten shots in a 20-rounder and go until lockback). 70 seconds is also 5.56mm to .338 Lapua neutral allowing recoil / brake management (you should be generating some nice heat mirage at the end of ten 338s).

Sounds easy, right? If you've got a Schmidt-Bender, Premier, Nightforce, Leupold, Vortex, HDMR, etc., it's a snap, right? 500 yards is a decent mid-range distance, you still have to accommodate for winds. Even a really tight shooting rifle stills needs a gunner to point it.

I think you'll have some good scores and a couple of "Shit, that was pretty tough."

Competition gives you an excuse to do load work, practice, and see what works to get and stay dialed in.

Remember, when it's time to go for it, no sighters, no "Gimme" zero shots, and ideally you have someone keeping time and scoring for you.

As far as I know bench resters and F-class don't do rapids, speed work, or magazine changes -- it's all prone, slow fire.

If two or three guys have 200-20X scores then you can break ties by group size in the rapids (putting a monkey on a guy's back to be BOTH fast and accurate).

 

[calling4life]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

This isn't really turning out to be similar to what you had done.

How about a $3 white poster board from WalMart with your choice of aiming dot in the center, be it a dot from a sharpie or a 3" orange circle, just something to dictate POA.

Measure group size, say... One 20 shot string.

Simple, anyone should have easy access to poster board, it's also big enough so even you AR shooters can hit it.

This makes life really easy, it's only one group, the smaller the size the higher you rank, but 20 shots is still enough to test a shooter and his weapon.

Really, making people order x target, get jim, John, and Sally from the range to verify x target is real/ honest, just wreaks of losing participation to me.

You can break it down to bolt/AR, magnum/not, factory/custom in terms of weapon, factory/handloads for ammunition, iron sight/scope... So on

Or just keep it bolt/AR, or even just AR if so desired, this is for fun right?

Simple, easy, still a test

 

[sinister]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

I say give it a try -- say agree to a sheet of poster board and maybe a specified size shoot-and-see you can get at Wally-Mart. It may or may not be a challenge to even see at 500 yards.

Whatever the target it should be uniform, accessible, cheap, but most of all something you can aim at through at least a 9X telescope (the average scope being a 3-9X or a 3.5-10X).

Someone should try it and tell us if it's do-able or too damn small. Benchrest typically only shoots 100 and 200 yards. The typical foot Soldier should be able to hit a nose-picker that close with a carbine and iron sights, hung over.

Shooting for pure tiny groups is benchrest. While commendable for rifle quality, ammo quality, and pure non-distracted shooting ability it kinda strays away from developing practical hunting and sniping shooting capability.

Just my 2 pennies. Your mileage may vary -- I don't mean to ruffle feathers, that's just my opinion. Talk the talk, walk the walk -- I don't own benchrest guns.

 

[Grump]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

I still prefer at round scoring-ring target, to measure the combination of accuracy (scientifically the nearness to the center) and the precision (the all-hallowed group size).

For the type of shooting this site is oriented towards, a bug-hole group 2 MOA off of the desired impact point is just not that good.

Think a 10-round dot drill at distance, just all on the same dot. Except there is some mercy for those just a little bit out, and less mercy for those farther out, but every shot counts towards increasing or decreasing the score.

A time constraint for one string is IMO necessary to make this a good "event". Having shot a lot of 70-second standing-to-prone 10-round strings with a mandatory reload, I STILL think it should be 60 seconds. Or maybe even 50, like the no-limit-on-shots "Rattle Battle" fired with service rifles (but that one starts IN position...OK really for all you can accurately shoot, but still generous for 10 shots). All this argument for a shorter time is even more so if we do NOT mandate a reload.

Reloading under time is a useful skill. If this "event" is not to measure that skill, then let the chips fall with each person's choice of equipment.

I've seen people do 10 shots in 70 seconds with a single-shot. Me, I used to always reload from the belt/mag pouch rather than from off the mat, notwithstanding what the USMC did at Belleau Wood or wherever in WWI.

 

[Wolfish365]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

Signatures of Shooter and Witness. Yardage, Scoring and Date marked by witness. Bolt and semi segregated w/ top 10 scoring and honorable mentions for tightest groups in each category. Make a chart of the top 20 scores regardless of platform to show where semi vs. bolt stands. The all-black targets are sometimes hard to make out past 300 yards. Sounds fun though!

 

[Grump]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

Cheating further away from sniping by allowing any color of marking on or inside or totally covering the 10-ring would be fine with me.

If I were evil, I'd do this same COF with camouflaged IPSC targets. At a live match, I'd even be tempted to put them at unknown distances about 170 yards apart...RF target closer, of course.

I try to not be THAT evil.

 

[elfster1234]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

Ok gang.... so far this is what i'm thinking.... I like sinister's idea and I think a whole bunch of other people do also. Not everyone, but most do from the feedback that i'm getting. I like his 70second rule as listed below so it is as neutral as possible.

Could we do a straight out group size? yes, but we kind of have that already with the other shootout forum (yes, i know it is only 100yards).

Need to finalize time of slow 10shot target,,, finalize time of fast 10shot target... What do you think?

Like sinister said, this will really push <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">not only group size</span></span>, but time, gun's fit to the shooter, natural point of aim, position and breathing, and trigger control. If you haven't done this before (AND yes, this includes myself!!!!), then you need to jump on board and challenge yourself rather than shooting groups all day long.

300yards is not long distance,,,, 800yards plus will put most people out of the game... so far, 500yards is going to be the ticket.... IF you don't have a 500yard range handy, then you will need to find one or you will be SOL (this also goes for me!! I need to find a 500yard range in north west wisconsin!! not that easy, but i'll make it happen!).... Yes, that is where i'm from. I'm a packer fan. Now you know.

each entry will have not only have the combined total points of both slow/fast targets (picture of each!), BUT the group size of the fast target!!! ties will be broken by your caliper group size measurement pic if needed!! main concern will be total points, with the fast target group size as a sideshow and also used for breaking ties if needed (i still need to work some things out here)... general idea... work with me people!! LOL JK..... then will add up semi auto's top ten average points vs bolt action top ten average points (the battle never ends and can go back and forth if the bolt action guys don't get their shit together). All this info i will figure out at the top of the original post in the range report section of sniper'shide.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">NOW, as for the target. This is where i could really use sinister / grump's help / YOUR help!!.. </span></span>Which target to use with sinister's ideas listed below??? This target needs to be set up for points, easy to see at 500yards, cheap, and easy to order (such as midway usa or something and not on back order all the time)... <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">The second we get the target figured out, the second i'll get the OP started in the range report section and this forum post will be deleted. Then the fun begins... LONG DISTANCE, SEMI-AUTO VS BOLT ACTION SHOOTOUT!!!!</span></span>


One thing I've found out in life, you can't make everyone happy. If you want to participate, then you will need to go the extra mile and push yourself to the max in order to particpate. I think this shootout will do the above. This goes for myself as I DO NOT have a 500yard range (but will find one hopeuflly in northwest wisconsin), and will need to purchase targets that I do not have. You cheap asses!!! JK

IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY, better say it now or for ever hold your peace.. LOL


<span style="color: #FF0000">general idea of long distance shootout with sinister's help, but might change a small bit:</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">but once the first round for score goes downrange, NO target inspections except for what you can see through the scope or your spotting scope.</span></span></div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you do the left-slow fire and right-rapid/sustained fire you can be gun/action neutral.

Gamesmanship vice combat: gun on the sand bag or bipod, shooter standing. Time starts at "Go," and you get into position and fire. This tests gun's fit to the shooter, natural point of aim, position and breathing, and trigger control. Repeat for the right target with a 70-second time limit.

70 seconds is neutral for stock top-loading 700s, Winchester 70s, Rugers, etc. (no clip-slot loading if you've got a scope since it's in the way). If you've got a 5, 10, or 20 shot magazine you just plug it into the gun and go. Reloads during the rapids on your own (five and five, a ten, or ten shots in a 20-rounder and go until lockback). 70 seconds is also 5.56mm to .338 Lapua neutral allowing recoil / brake management (you should be generating some nice heat mirage at the end of ten 338s).

Sounds easy, right? If you've got a Schmidt-Bender, Premier, Nightforce, Leupold, Vortex, HDMR, etc., it's a snap, right? 500 yards is a decent mid-range distance, you still have to accommodate for winds. Even a really tight shooting rifle stills needs a gunner to point it.

I think you'll have some good scores and a couple of "Shit, that was pretty tough."

Competition gives you an excuse to do load work, practice, and see what works to get and stay dialed in.

Remember, when it's time to go for it, no sighters, no "Gimme" zero shots, and ideally you have someone keeping time and scoring for you.

As far as I know bench resters and F-class don't do rapids, speed work, or magazine changes -- it's all prone, slow fire.

If two or three guys have 200-20X scores then you can break ties by group size in the rapids (putting a monkey on a guy's back to be BOTH fast and accurate). </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can do a smack-talk 500-yard postal match, bolt/self-loader neutral by putting out two NRA 500-yard targets side-by-side.

Left target is ten shots, ten minutes, slow fire for score (ties broken by Xs or group size). This gives a guy lots of time to be clean and deliberate.

The right target is ten shots in 70 seconds including a reload (again, ties broken by X-count and then group size). This mirrors the NRA National Match Course (minus starting from standing).

Group 1 measures wind-reading and finesse. The other does the same with a time restraint. Saves you money from having to buy Shoot-and-Sees as well. </div></div>

 

[Grump]

Re: Need IDEAS for semi-auto LONG DISTANCE Shootout.

I'm afraid that the best way to make it all consistent would be to have every entrant either use an NRA SR-1 center they can get or already have themselves, or have the match sponsor (you) buy a box and sell them to those who can't access one and don't want to buy a whole box.

The 13-inch aiming bull is easy enough to see at 500 with any reasonable and some unreasonably low-quality sighting optics.

IF there is some desire to not have to "guess" on every hit in the 8-ring (the rings are cut off at the sides of the target center), then use the SR-31 (I think that's the number) 300-yard "rapid fire" center. It's bigger.

Printing anything big enough to be a reasonable aiming point for an accuracy exercise like this at 500 would be a SERIOUS use of ink or toner, and a lot of printers just don't do well with big old fields of black ink like that.