Ok we are getting down to pulling the trigger on ordering the parts and pieces for this build,but I have one more question for you guys... Barrel twist rate... Cheytac recommends a 1:11.5 and Mr Jwoolf speaks highly of a 1:10 and Viersco in that monster he put together runs a 1: 11.5 all the way down to a 1:8.. My blank will come from Krieger and will need a special cut if I need to go tighter than a 1:12. I know the tighter the twist, means a reduction in speed with higher pressure but I get better stablization . My 338LM runs a 1:9 3/4 and likes to eat the 300 smk's , which puts my gut instinct with the 1:10... Any advise? Be gentle ...
Need more 375 ct info..
- Thread starter Jaeger898
- Start date
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
Contact the bullet manufacturer regarding the bullet you expect to use the most and get their recommendation on twist.
BTW, you could go 5R if you went Bartlein (only to .338 with Krieger). But that is a whole nother discussion...
Contact the bullet manufacturer regarding the bullet you expect to use the most and get their recommendation on twist.
BTW, you could go 5R if you went Bartlein (only to .338 with Krieger). But that is a whole nother discussion...
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
I am with ELR, it's all about the bullet.
My 375 is a Lawton 1:10.5 and was intended for 350 SMK's and 370gr Rocky Mtn for hunting.
I am with ELR, it's all about the bullet.
My 375 is a Lawton 1:10.5 and was intended for 350 SMK's and 370gr Rocky Mtn for hunting.
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
I'm with both of them.
You really need to have the bullet picked out then pick the twist it'll shoot.
I think Rock creek also offers a 5r in there 375 cal barrels?
Robert
I'm with both of them.
You really need to have the bullet picked out then pick the twist it'll shoot.
I think Rock creek also offers a 5r in there 375 cal barrels?
Robert
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
+1 all the above. Bullet choice is where it's at.
To add, I would not get Cheytac's help for all the money in the world.
+1 all the above. Bullet choice is where it's at.
To add, I would not get Cheytac's help for all the money in the world.
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
Jaeger,
The tighter twist rates will not limit velocity.
If you must order now then get a 1: 8". You lose nothing by reserving the rpm's necessary for stabilization of the higher BC solids, and jacketed bullets should still be able to hold up against the centrifugal force at the velocities you will be running.
Jaeger,
The tighter twist rates will not limit velocity.
If you must order now then get a 1: 8". You lose nothing by reserving the rpm's necessary for stabilization of the higher BC solids, and jacketed bullets should still be able to hold up against the centrifugal force at the velocities you will be running.
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
Jaeger898:
Four in a row suggest you contact the bullet manufacturers and Noel suggests that if you're pushed you go 1:8.
Here is what the barrel builders tell you in regards faster twist w/o an extra charge (BTW, extra charge = extra time since it is unlikely they will be in stock or scheduled for a multi-barrel run):
Bartlein - 1:12
Broughton - 1:12
Hart - 1:12
Krieger - 1:12 (they have one 1:10 in stock, 28", 1.5 tapering to 1.365 - can you spell HEAVY?)
McGowen - 1:10
Shillen - 1:12
Spencer - 1:10
PLEASE take the time to contact the bullet guys, then spend some time with the barrel guys. Tell each of them your application and see what THEY suggest. If ANY of them suggest 1:8, please let us know who - AND if any are barrel guys, how many .375 1:8 barrels they've shipped in the last 2 years (approximate).
"Possible" and "practical" are NOT synonymous.
Jaeger898:
Four in a row suggest you contact the bullet manufacturers and Noel suggests that if you're pushed you go 1:8.
Here is what the barrel builders tell you in regards faster twist w/o an extra charge (BTW, extra charge = extra time since it is unlikely they will be in stock or scheduled for a multi-barrel run):
Bartlein - 1:12
Broughton - 1:12
Hart - 1:12
Krieger - 1:12 (they have one 1:10 in stock, 28", 1.5 tapering to 1.365 - can you spell HEAVY?)
McGowen - 1:10
Shillen - 1:12
Spencer - 1:10
PLEASE take the time to contact the bullet guys, then spend some time with the barrel guys. Tell each of them your application and see what THEY suggest. If ANY of them suggest 1:8, please let us know who - AND if any are barrel guys, how many .375 1:8 barrels they've shipped in the last 2 years (approximate).
"Possible" and "practical" are NOT synonymous.
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
Thank you for all the input you guys have given.. There isn't a real rush when it comes to getting all the details right on a big build like this, and I would like to spend the money one time...(you know the old saying measure twice cut once) I have actually enjoyed speaking with all the component manufacturer reps...Now it looks like its the bullet guy's turn .... I just would like to get things rolling on the build... It nice to talk and learn but it's more fun to shoot and learn.
Thanks again for the advise
Thank you for all the input you guys have given.. There isn't a real rush when it comes to getting all the details right on a big build like this, and I would like to spend the money one time...(you know the old saying measure twice cut once) I have actually enjoyed speaking with all the component manufacturer reps...Now it looks like its the bullet guy's turn .... I just would like to get things rolling on the build... It nice to talk and learn but it's more fun to shoot and learn.
Thanks again for the advise
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
I think your gut is right unless you want to shoot the lathe turned bullets over 375 gr. I just ordered a McGowan with a 1-10 because for what I want to shoot through it the 1-10 is enough...........unless the new Berger,if and whenever it comes out, requires more?
I think your gut is right unless you want to shoot the lathe turned bullets over 375 gr. I just ordered a McGowan with a 1-10 because for what I want to shoot through it the 1-10 is enough...........unless the new Berger,if and whenever it comes out, requires more?
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
Yeah, that's why I suggested 1:10 spin... it will take you out to all the practical bullets I can find for the 375 and stabilize them all.
If you go with a slower spin, you start to limit your bullet selection.
I think the Lutz Moeller lathe turned bullet requires 1:8 spin but that is a VERY specialized projectile for the 375 and is almost 3" long and a BC of 1.537 with a MV of around 2850fps.... put that into JBM and it won't calculate out far enough to see how far it will stay supersonic!!!!
I'd love to see what Dave could do with this beast in the 375VM!!!
.375 Viking MSG 70 mm long, 26,44 g Mass (408 Grains), BC1000 1,537 for 119 mm long .375 Chey Tac
762 mm long Barrel | 203 mm Twist length or 1 Turn in 8 Inches | Bore 9,30 mm, Groove 9,53 mm
Look at this beast fly!!!!
Yeah, that's why I suggested 1:10 spin... it will take you out to all the practical bullets I can find for the 375 and stabilize them all.
If you go with a slower spin, you start to limit your bullet selection.
I think the Lutz Moeller lathe turned bullet requires 1:8 spin but that is a VERY specialized projectile for the 375 and is almost 3" long and a BC of 1.537 with a MV of around 2850fps.... put that into JBM and it won't calculate out far enough to see how far it will stay supersonic!!!!
I'd love to see what Dave could do with this beast in the 375VM!!!
.375 Viking MSG 70 mm long, 26,44 g Mass (408 Grains), BC1000 1,537 for 119 mm long .375 Chey Tac
762 mm long Barrel | 203 mm Twist length or 1 Turn in 8 Inches | Bore 9,30 mm, Groove 9,53 mm
Look at this beast fly!!!!
A
Augustus
Guest
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
Jwoolf, the bullet you just posted is totally unstable. I ordered 300 of them from Lutz and fired them out of an 8 twist and a 13-6.5 gain twist. The few that got on a 4 ft by 4 ft target at 100 yds made very large football shaped holes from both barrels. These bullets are not functional and the BC posted is a very bad Joke. If you could calculate the actual BC it would be less than a 40 gr promo fired from a 22 rimfire. The LM 119 with the Adams tail produced similar results.
A lot of the info you see on lathe turned solids is computer generated hype. Some have been field tested to good effect. The Cutting Edge bullets are stable out of both my barrels. The Rocky Mounyian bullets turned to dust out of the 8 twist. These were the first generation and I have heard they put thicker jackets on them so they may have solved the problem.
Anyone who doubts my assessment of the Viking can PM me and I will sell a few and they can see for themselves. I would discourage folks from passing Internet BS information to others as fact. The Viking is good for nothing as a viable projectile, it is a wonderful monument to remind us of the failures of computer generated ballistic predictions.
Jwoolf, the bullet you just posted is totally unstable. I ordered 300 of them from Lutz and fired them out of an 8 twist and a 13-6.5 gain twist. The few that got on a 4 ft by 4 ft target at 100 yds made very large football shaped holes from both barrels. These bullets are not functional and the BC posted is a very bad Joke. If you could calculate the actual BC it would be less than a 40 gr promo fired from a 22 rimfire. The LM 119 with the Adams tail produced similar results.
A lot of the info you see on lathe turned solids is computer generated hype. Some have been field tested to good effect. The Cutting Edge bullets are stable out of both my barrels. The Rocky Mounyian bullets turned to dust out of the 8 twist. These were the first generation and I have heard they put thicker jackets on them so they may have solved the problem.
Anyone who doubts my assessment of the Viking can PM me and I will sell a few and they can see for themselves. I would discourage folks from passing Internet BS information to others as fact. The Viking is good for nothing as a viable projectile, it is a wonderful monument to remind us of the failures of computer generated ballistic predictions.
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
There is nothing that anyone can do with that bullet in *any* twist rate. The "Viking" is paradigmatic of the type of nonsense that is passed off as advanced design work, but never gets beyond the drawing board before being offered to the public. The same can be said of its close sibling, the LM 119, or last year's GSC 414.
To further complicate choices in 375 Cheytac, there are projectiles that require twist-rates even faster than 1: 8", and are stellar performers... one of wbich will be available to the general public.
It will pay 375 users to keep a close eye on development in this area in the coming months.
There is nothing that anyone can do with that bullet in *any* twist rate. The "Viking" is paradigmatic of the type of nonsense that is passed off as advanced design work, but never gets beyond the drawing board before being offered to the public. The same can be said of its close sibling, the LM 119, or last year's GSC 414.
To further complicate choices in 375 Cheytac, there are projectiles that require twist-rates even faster than 1: 8", and are stellar performers... one of wbich will be available to the general public.
It will pay 375 users to keep a close eye on development in this area in the coming months.
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
this is great and thanks for both replies on the projectiles.
I didn't personally want a 1:8 spin based on what is available today but, I've got both eyes open.
Yeah, I never thought about shooting any of the vikings but, it's good information to have. I also didn't know Lutz was affiliated with GSC.
And, I'm looking forward to hearing of more bullets being produced for the 375!!!
What may I ask is being used with a 1:8 or faster right now? I just haven't seen anything out there like that yet.
EDIT: I went back and read the bullet testing thread... Noel, I look forward to seeing something on the market for the 375.
Noel, Will a 10 twist stabilize the bullets you're bringing to market?
this is great and thanks for both replies on the projectiles.
I didn't personally want a 1:8 spin based on what is available today but, I've got both eyes open.
Yeah, I never thought about shooting any of the vikings but, it's good information to have. I also didn't know Lutz was affiliated with GSC.
And, I'm looking forward to hearing of more bullets being produced for the 375!!!
What may I ask is being used with a 1:8 or faster right now? I just haven't seen anything out there like that yet.
EDIT: I went back and read the bullet testing thread... Noel, I look forward to seeing something on the market for the 375.
Noel, Will a 10 twist stabilize the bullets you're bringing to market?
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
jwoolf
1. FYI, Lutz Moeller and GSG are definitely NOT affiliated!
2. I did a search on this site (Sniper's Hide) and found NO indication (read that as <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">NO </span></span><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">DATA</span></span>) that there have been any issues with the commerfcially-available, GSC 414 other than long delivery. [Delivery in the USA is being resolved as we speak - read that as they will soon be <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #33CC00">PRODUCED</span></span> in the USA - Anthony will be passing the word when he finds time away from the business of actually making and selling projectiles. Suffice to say, well within 30 days.]
3. As far as the "last year's" GSC 414, its been the same product for over 1.5 years and, BTW, Dave Viers will soon be receiving another shipment - having been able to shoot a 2.7" group with them at 1438 yds during load development for the 375 VM - some time passed now, believe there was discussion on this forum.
Items #1,2,3 - as in doing research, picking up the phone, doing my best to get it straight.
jwoolf
1. FYI, Lutz Moeller and GSG are definitely NOT affiliated!
2. I did a search on this site (Sniper's Hide) and found NO indication (read that as <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">NO </span></span><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">DATA</span></span>) that there have been any issues with the commerfcially-available, GSC 414 other than long delivery. [Delivery in the USA is being resolved as we speak - read that as they will soon be <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #33CC00">PRODUCED</span></span> in the USA - Anthony will be passing the word when he finds time away from the business of actually making and selling projectiles. Suffice to say, well within 30 days.]
3. As far as the "last year's" GSC 414, its been the same product for over 1.5 years and, BTW, Dave Viers will soon be receiving another shipment - having been able to shoot a 2.7" group with them at 1438 yds during load development for the 375 VM - some time passed now, believe there was discussion on this forum.
Items #1,2,3 - as in doing research, picking up the phone, doing my best to get it straight.
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
jwoolf,
The best BC is necessarily linked to the tightest, readily available twist-rate.
For that reason I am designing to the 1:8" twist, which also permits the use of the current crop of jacketed lead bullets.
Best,
Noel
jwoolf,
The best BC is necessarily linked to the tightest, readily available twist-rate.
For that reason I am designing to the 1:8" twist, which also permits the use of the current crop of jacketed lead bullets.
Best,
Noel
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">jwoolf,
The best BC is necessarily linked to the tightest, readily available twist-rate.
For that reason I am designing to the 1:8" twist, which also permits the use of the current crop of jacketed lead bullets.
Best,
Noel </div></div>
Interesting.
I'm anxious to see your new offering. I'm going to need a barrel at some point so, I'm going to keep close eyes on this subject and look forward to seeing the new line of bullets.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">jwoolf,
The best BC is necessarily linked to the tightest, readily available twist-rate.
For that reason I am designing to the 1:8" twist, which also permits the use of the current crop of jacketed lead bullets.
Best,
Noel </div></div>
Interesting.
I'm anxious to see your new offering. I'm going to need a barrel at some point so, I'm going to keep close eyes on this subject and look forward to seeing the new line of bullets.
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
Augustus:
The number of shots and being duplicated...
As stated, Dave was developing loads. How many shots do you take when you are developing loads, 2, 3, 5, 10, 20? Do you bring extra rounds with the SAME load, just in case - when you're doing load development? The numbers speak for themselves. The shooter is not a novice. The post is simply a statement of fact. IF Dave takes the time to shoot some more, we may get some more data. After all, he runs a business, not a fodder factory for SH posts.
Noel:
Which caliber are you talking about when you recommend 1:8, .338 or .375? My understanding is that your "soon-to-be-released" is a.338 - what will be shot at Gunsite. Correct? This thread is about .375.
Augustus:
The number of shots and being duplicated...
As stated, Dave was developing loads. How many shots do you take when you are developing loads, 2, 3, 5, 10, 20? Do you bring extra rounds with the SAME load, just in case - when you're doing load development? The numbers speak for themselves. The shooter is not a novice. The post is simply a statement of fact. IF Dave takes the time to shoot some more, we may get some more data. After all, he runs a business, not a fodder factory for SH posts.
Noel:
Which caliber are you talking about when you recommend 1:8, .338 or .375? My understanding is that your "soon-to-be-released" is a.338 - what will be shot at Gunsite. Correct? This thread is about .375.
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
Ed,
The 1: 8" twist recommendation was made with an awareness that we are discussing 375 caliber. Most of what I have, or will, work on is not going to be discussed in any detail prior to release. I hope that you can understand.
You are going to get mud on your face vouching for the 414. One of my early 338 designs literally did sub-half minute groups at 1,500 yards (with two shot one hole groups occasionally) that opened up to 1.5 moa at 1,770 yards.
You really do not understand the issues that you have elected to debate. Augustus is right
Ed,
The 1: 8" twist recommendation was made with an awareness that we are discussing 375 caliber. Most of what I have, or will, work on is not going to be discussed in any detail prior to release. I hope that you can understand.
You are going to get mud on your face vouching for the 414. One of my early 338 designs literally did sub-half minute groups at 1,500 yards (with two shot one hole groups occasionally) that opened up to 1.5 moa at 1,770 yards.
You really do not understand the issues that you have elected to debate. Augustus is right
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
Noel:
None of the data is mine but I have zero reason to distrust the sources.
I am not debating anyone. You gratuitously dropped in the bit about the GSC 414 when the point at hand was an LM product, and I gratuitously dropped in the info I researched.
We'll wait to see who can "validate" the numbers with data that "all" at least will recognize as not tainted by parocial interests.
BTW, its Oscar, not Ed. Right at the top of my home page. Ed was in my working days, as my profile says, I'm now retired. Thanks.
Noel:
None of the data is mine but I have zero reason to distrust the sources.
I am not debating anyone. You gratuitously dropped in the bit about the GSC 414 when the point at hand was an LM product, and I gratuitously dropped in the info I researched.
We'll wait to see who can "validate" the numbers with data that "all" at least will recognize as not tainted by parocial interests.
BTW, its Oscar, not Ed. Right at the top of my home page. Ed was in my working days, as my profile says, I'm now retired. Thanks.
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
Now we'll wait and see if the product teases you keep popping in actually have a related COMMERCIAL product...and if that COMMERCIAL product actually does what you keep "implying" it will. Facts and data please stand up and be counted.
Nuff said.
Now we'll wait and see if the product teases you keep popping in actually have a related COMMERCIAL product...and if that COMMERCIAL product actually does what you keep "implying" it will. Facts and data please stand up and be counted.
Nuff said.
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
Well, I'm still learning what my rifle likes and, I really haven't been able to get out and shoot much with my traveling for work and purchasing a new house and, I'm getting sick now so, this weekend is probably out.
I do have some LeHigh 330s and some of the predator 350s....
I keep hearing great things about the cutting edge projectiles... I should probably get a batch of the 375gr cutting edge bullets... my 1:10 should stabilize them.
I need time more than anything now... I have a bunch of charge weights loaded now with the 330s and haven't been able to shoot them yet to get a really good idea of what I can do with those bullets. I have a lot of work to do and cash to spend before I find what this beast will do.
Well, I'm still learning what my rifle likes and, I really haven't been able to get out and shoot much with my traveling for work and purchasing a new house and, I'm getting sick now so, this weekend is probably out.
I do have some LeHigh 330s and some of the predator 350s....
I keep hearing great things about the cutting edge projectiles... I should probably get a batch of the 375gr cutting edge bullets... my 1:10 should stabilize them.
I need time more than anything now... I have a bunch of charge weights loaded now with the 330s and haven't been able to shoot them yet to get a really good idea of what I can do with those bullets. I have a lot of work to do and cash to spend before I find what this beast will do.
A
Augustus
Guest
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
The cutting edge 400 gr is very consistent out of my 13-6.5 barrel. It also is stable out of the 8 twist but the accuracy was not as good. Your 10 twist would probably do well with the 350 gr and It would be interesting to see how it handles the 375 gr.
I have BC numbers that work for me on both the 375 and 400 gr. If you start to test these out of your rifle, PM me and I will give you the load, velocity, accuracy and BC data
By the way none of this data will be based on two shots, it takes many more than that for me to develop good data that will stand the test of time and multiple shooters. I reakon I'm just not as cultured as some.
The cutting edge 400 gr is very consistent out of my 13-6.5 barrel. It also is stable out of the 8 twist but the accuracy was not as good. Your 10 twist would probably do well with the 350 gr and It would be interesting to see how it handles the 375 gr.
I have BC numbers that work for me on both the 375 and 400 gr. If you start to test these out of your rifle, PM me and I will give you the load, velocity, accuracy and BC data
By the way none of this data will be based on two shots, it takes many more than that for me to develop good data that will stand the test of time and multiple shooters. I reakon I'm just not as cultured as some.
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The cutting edge 400 gr is very consistent out of my 13-6.5 barrel. It also is stable out of the 8 twist but the accuracy was not as good. Your 10 twist would probably do well with the 350 gr and It would be interesting to see how it handles the 375 gr.
I have BC numbers that work for me on both the 375 and 400 gr. If you start to test these out of your rifle, PM me and I will give you the load, velocity, accuracy and BC data
By the way none of this data will be based on two shots, it takes many more than that for me to develop good data that will stand the test of time and multiple shooters. I reakon I'm just not as cultured as some.
</div></div>
Cutting Edge says that my 10 twist will stabilize the 375gr bullet but, as you say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Time will tell.
I'd be VERY interested in seeing your BC calculations and loads on the 375gr pill... also, how you're determining seating depths. You've obviously spent some time and money working with it.
Everyone's rifle is different but, everyone's BC should be close to the same leaving at the same velocity... my spin will be different, however. I honestly don't know if spin will affect BC ( as long as the bullet is stable )but, I'd bet your numbers will work pretty well for me or, at least get me into the ballpark.
Thank you, Sir!
I'm really interested in hearing if your actual BC is close that that advertised by them. We all know most mfgrs boost their advertised BC numbers to look better than they actually are.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The cutting edge 400 gr is very consistent out of my 13-6.5 barrel. It also is stable out of the 8 twist but the accuracy was not as good. Your 10 twist would probably do well with the 350 gr and It would be interesting to see how it handles the 375 gr.
I have BC numbers that work for me on both the 375 and 400 gr. If you start to test these out of your rifle, PM me and I will give you the load, velocity, accuracy and BC data
By the way none of this data will be based on two shots, it takes many more than that for me to develop good data that will stand the test of time and multiple shooters. I reakon I'm just not as cultured as some.
</div></div>
Cutting Edge says that my 10 twist will stabilize the 375gr bullet but, as you say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Time will tell.
I'd be VERY interested in seeing your BC calculations and loads on the 375gr pill... also, how you're determining seating depths. You've obviously spent some time and money working with it.
Everyone's rifle is different but, everyone's BC should be close to the same leaving at the same velocity... my spin will be different, however. I honestly don't know if spin will affect BC ( as long as the bullet is stable )but, I'd bet your numbers will work pretty well for me or, at least get me into the ballpark.
Thank you, Sir!
I'm really interested in hearing if your actual BC is close that that advertised by them. We all know most mfgrs boost their advertised BC numbers to look better than they actually are.
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
Dynamic Research LLC also makes a 350 grain solid for the 375. The velocity with 130 gr of RL 25 from a Barker Machine Works 375 CT was 3135 Avg with a 10 shot string. The accuracy was .30 MOA. This was only at 100 yards, but as soon as the snow breaks and we can get up in the mountains we will stretch it out..
Dynamic Research LLC also makes a 350 grain solid for the 375. The velocity with 130 gr of RL 25 from a Barker Machine Works 375 CT was 3135 Avg with a 10 shot string. The accuracy was .30 MOA. This was only at 100 yards, but as soon as the snow breaks and we can get up in the mountains we will stretch it out..
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
I can't wait to shoot some of those... I haven't yet but, I will soon! I have some on the shelf now.
I can't wait to shoot some of those... I haven't yet but, I will soon! I have some on the shelf now.
Re: Need more 375 ct info..
Jwoolf.
Let me know how they do for you. If you could get me the accoustic data for the 375 so I can see how they do. Thanks, Steve
Jwoolf.
Let me know how they do for you. If you could get me the accoustic data for the 375 so I can see how they do. Thanks, Steve
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