New .308 needed

[mcass]

Ok, newer shooter and looking for some advice. I currently have a Remington R-25 in .308 with a Nikon m-308 scope and mount which I have used for deer hunting and shooting for fun out to about 200 yds. The things I don't like about it:
Weight- bare I have it at 9.75 on my scale
Stock
Cheap paint job (camo, scratches like crazy)
Feels poorly balanced compared to other guns I have picked up... very front heavy, even with optics and a full 20 rd mag, and without bipod.



I am wanting to graduate to learning longer distance shooting, say out to 1000 yards, and want to take a long range shooting course. I also would love a lighter rifle. I can sell my r-25 for 800-900$ without the optics. More if I include them if I don't have the best setup for my budget.

So the advice I need- I could spend up to 2000 or so, including the sale of my old gun, on a new gun to meet those goals. If so, what would you recommend? I have looked at the new gen 2 dpms recon, and holding them side by side it is much lighter. I also looked at the M&P 10 (which I understand I would have to change out the handguard to a free float for better accuracy with a bipod?), and the Sig 716. Also should I keep that scope, or sell for a couple of hundred dollars, knowing that would make my budget ~2200 or so including optics. Finally, should I consider keeping what I have and changing out parts? I know this is possible on most ARs, but from what I have seen, more complicated on this brand in particular?

Thanks for any advice.

 

[jasonfaz]

Your bare R25 weighs in at 9.75 lbs.Do you have the std 20" barreled stock R25 or is it different in some way? R25s are listed at 7.75 lbs and I believe the lightest DPMS G2 is the AP4 at 7.25 lbs. If you're looking to lighten it up a bit you could easily find parts to replace those on your current rig. The R25 is a high profile DPMS receiver design, so you could get an 8.5 ounce Fortis rail and swap it with your current aluminum tube. You could cut your barrel from 20" to 16" (like the AP4 length) and re-crown or thread.

The Sig is 9.3 pounds without mag or optic. If you don't like the weight of current set up you sure as hell won't like that one.

If you're looking to go lightweight I would suggest you look at something other than the AR-10/SR25 platform and think about going with a bolt gun. Additionally, while you wouldn't want a semi auto to be ridiculously muzzle heavy (over 75/25 ratio) you might consider how the forward weight helps reduce muzzle rise and keeps you on target. Have you ever felt the recoil impulse on a featherweight 308? It's not the softest shooting set up in the world.

My advice would be to upgrade your current rig based on what would have the greatest effect on what you don't like about it the most. There are a lot of things you can do to it. If the weight is the big issue then I'd suggest getting rid of if it and eval'ing bolt guns that fit within your weight threshold.

 

[jasonfaz]

I forgot to mention that the DPMS G2 Recon is listed at 8.5 lbs compared to the 7.75lbs the R25 is listed at. Still curious to hear how your bare R25 weighs in so high...

 

[TheJ]

Maybe "bare" is with optic?

 

[USACS]

You can build or buy a different upper for the rifle. The rifle is DPMS LR308 compatible since, you know, it is a DPMS LR308.

Also might want to consider going to an optic that is better suited for long range. You can start with the SWFA SS line of fixed, or look at their 3-15x42.

 

[elfster1234]

Pretty much any scoped 308 AR is going to be a heavy bitch. Even the new G2 dpms. With that said, if you want a light weight 308 AR its going to be hard to beat the new dpms 308 g2 recon especially for the price. If not worried about the weight then i would kick around the idea of the G2 sass

Ok, newer shooter and looking for some advice. I currently have a Remington R-25 in .308 with a Nikon m-308 scope and mount which I have used for deer hunting and shooting for fun out to about 200 yds. The things I don't like about it:
Weight- bare I have it at 9.75 on my scale
Stock
Cheap paint job (camo, scratches like crazy)
Feels poorly balanced compared to other guns I have picked up... very front heavy, even with optics and a full 20 rd mag, and without bipod.



I am wanting to graduate to learning longer distance shooting, say out to 1000 yards, and want to take a long range shooting course. I also would love a lighter rifle. I can sell my r-25 for 800-900$ without the optics. More if I include them if I don't have the best setup for my budget.

So the advice I need- I could spend up to 2000 or so, including the sale of my old gun, on a new gun to meet those goals. If so, what would you recommend? I have looked at the new gen 2 dpms recon, and holding them side by side it is much lighter. I also looked at the M&P 10 (which I understand I would have to change out the handguard to a free float for better accuracy with a bipod?), and the Sig 716. Also should I keep that scope, or sell for a couple of hundred dollars, knowing that would make my budget ~2200 or so including optics. Finally, should I consider keeping what I have and changing out parts? I know this is possible on most ARs, but from what I have seen, more complicated on this brand in particular?

Thanks for any advice.

 

[mcass]

re:

Just weighed it again... bare meant completely stock gun, no scope or mount, with a 4 round empty clip in. Took the clip out and it was 9.1 lbs. I'm not sure where they got their numbers for 7.5, but based on seeing other people discuss their weight, it matches mine. maybe the 7.5 is for the 7mm-08 version? they all list the same weight... but it is definitely inaccurate. I held it and the recon at the same time, substantial weight difference to feel as well. I had looked at some of the discussions on swapping handguards, and it looked like people kept running into significant issues with the parts actually working like a dpms normally would. In regards to swapping parts, I was/am worried that once added to the ~8-900 value of the gun, that I might end up with substantially more money into it to get it lighter, without substantially improving the quality.

Your bare R25 weighs in at 9.75 lbs.Do you have the std 20" barreled stock R25 or is it different in some way? R25s are listed at 7.75 lbs and I believe the lightest DPMS G2 is the AP4 at 7.25 lbs. If you're looking to lighten it up a bit you could easily find parts to replace those on your current rig. The R25 is a high profile DPMS receiver design, so you could get an 8.5 ounce Fortis rail and swap it with your current aluminum tube. You could cut your barrel from 20" to 16" (like the AP4 length) and re-crown or thread.

The Sig is 9.3 pounds without mag or optic. If you don't like the weight of current set up you sure as hell won't like that one.

If you're looking to go lightweight I would suggest you look at something other than the AR-10/SR25 platform and think about going with a bolt gun. Additionally, while you wouldn't want a semi auto to be ridiculously muzzle heavy (over 75/25 ratio) you might consider how the forward weight helps reduce muzzle rise and keeps you on target. Have you ever felt the recoil impulse on a featherweight 308? It's not the softest shooting set up in the world.

My advice would be to upgrade your current rig based on what would have the greatest effect on what you don't like about it the most. There are a lot of things you can do to it. If the weight is the big issue then I'd suggest getting rid of if it and eval'ing bolt guns that fit within your weight threshold.

 

[mcass]

Seems to be what I am noticing... some of the companies seem a little loose with their weights on their specs page. Since I haven't ever shot long distance, I am not sure what the diff would be between the sass and the recon in terms of accuracy. I understand to a degree that the longer barrel will provide slightly better velocity, which could provide better accuracy, but is the rifle itself overall more accurate? And please keep in mind, that at this point, a slingshot could outshoot me, so I am nowhere even near the limits of accuracy on the gun I have. Just looking to get something that will meet the needs above, and that I can grow into. If in the end I need a heavier gun to be able to make those type of shots in that price range, then I would sacrifice weight for accuracy

 

[Trochlea]

rifle precision (read: repeatability) is largely a function of you barrel and bolt. Longer barrels give you higher speeds which fights the effect of gravity and wind better than the same bullet at a lower speed. Heavier doesn't mean better but longer barrels are generally heavier (given the same contour) and also more precise because of velocity. the length vs velocity debate is different for each cartridge and person, it has been argued that it is as short as 20 inches for a 308 smei auto. If weight is that big of a concern, you might listen to Jason and consider a bolt gun. Although to be honest, if a slingshot is more accurate than you, your upgrade budget would be better spent on ammunition, a dope book to take meaningful shots, and gas money to the range. you can likely do some more growing with your current system. My first upgrade would be the scope to a mil/mil or moa/moa scope. While not terrible glass a bdc or or nikoplex reticle is not a versatile system for long range shooting.
How are you measuring your accuracy?
As a side note, what kind of ammunition are you shooting? what kind of groups are you getting at 100 yards? How are you measuring accuracy? Are you shooting at targets at 100 yards or steel at longer ranges?

 

[Guest]

My POF P308 with UBR Stock and Leupold Mark4 3.5-10x40 in NF UL rings weighs 11.6lbs. I thought that was pretty light for a .308 semi. If you want to go lighter than you are now with it scoped then you need to go down to a AR15 Recce setup.

 

[jasonfaz]

Here's the thing, the G2 may have been lighter (I've heard numerous times the Rem website is off and the R25 weighs in at 8.75 not 7.75lbs) but regardless, the minute you throw an optic on it and a mag in you won't be able to tell much of a difference and if sure as hell won't do anything for accuracy.

If I were in your shoes and I wanted to reduce weight as much as possible, improve my accuracy and do so with either an $1100 budget or a $2k budget including the sale of the rifle, I would stick with the R25.

The barrel is isn't all that bad. A 20" button rifled 1-10" twist, CHF barrel isn't necessarily a JP, Krieger or other super match barrel, but it should be capable of very decent accuracy well past the ranges you're shooting. Assuming your barrel is fluted, you're limited on having it cut down to save on weight. Even if it wasn't I would recommend replacing the handguard first and stock second to address weight savings. You should be able to drop a pound off of weight if not more.

For accuracy improvement there are two things you need. One would be a good trigger. Lots of info here on this forum regarding the slew of good options out there. That will help dramatically with the "accuracy" issue.

The only other thing would be optic. You should sell the Nikon and mount and add the proceeds to your budget. I would probably focus on the optic first and get the nicest glass you can afford. Leave enough budget for a good trigger and get to the weight reduction aspects when you can down the road. That's what I'd do if I were you...

 

[mcass]

accuracy

Shooting at paper at 100 yds I can group at about an inch to inch and quarter with a bipod after shooting around 5-8 rounds (when shooting regularly). Beyond that distance haven't really shot enough to know, but I was on paper (12x12) at 250 yds. I was using the BDC software from Nikon dope sheet for the ammo I was using (hunting grade ammo) Remington and federal.

I say slingshot because of the paper I have seen on this website, wouldn't even consider myself in the same class.

rifle precision (read: repeatability) is largely a function of you barrel and bolt. Longer barrels give you higher speeds which fights the effect of gravity and wind better than the same bullet at a lower speed. Heavier doesn't mean better but longer barrels are generally heavier (given the same contour) and also more precise because of velocity. the length vs velocity debate is different for each cartridge and person, it has been argued that it is as short as 20 inches for a 308 smei auto. If weight is that big of a concern, you might listen to Jason and consider a bolt gun. Although to be honest, if a slingshot is more accurate than you, your upgrade budget would be better spent on ammunition, a dope book to take meaningful shots, and gas money to the range. you can likely do some more growing with your current system. My first upgrade would be the scope to a mil/mil or moa/moa scope. While not terrible glass a bdc or or nikoplex reticle is not a versatile system for long range shooting.
How are you measuring your accuracy?
As a side note, what kind of ammunition are you shooting? what kind of groups are you getting at 100 yards? How are you measuring accuracy? Are you shooting at targets at 100 yards or steel at longer ranges?

 

[Guest]

1-1.25" from your semi .308 is really good. Put a Geissele or Timney Competition trigger in your gun and and call it a day.

 

[mcass]

Suggestions for a stock and hand guard?

Here's the thing, the G2 may have been lighter (I've heard numerous times the Rem website is off and the R25 weighs in at 8.75 not 7.75lbs) but regardless, the minute you throw an optic on it and a mag in you won't be able to tell much of a difference and if sure as hell won't do anything for accuracy.

If I were in your shoes and I wanted to reduce weight as much as possible, improve my accuracy and do so with either an $1100 budget or a $2k budget including the sale of the rifle, I would stick with the R25.

The barrel is isn't all that bad. A 20" button rifled 1-10" twist, CHF barrel isn't necessarily a JP, Krieger or other super match barrel, but it should be capable of very decent accuracy well past the ranges you're shooting. Assuming your barrel is fluted, you're limited on having it cut down to save on weight. Even if it wasn't I would recommend replacing the handguard first and stock second to address weight savings. You should be able to drop a pound off of weight if not more.

For accuracy improvement there are two things you need. One would be a good trigger. Lots of info here on this forum regarding the slew of good options out there. That will help dramatically with the "accuracy" issue.

The only other thing would be optic. You should sell the Nikon and mount and add the proceeds to your budget. I would probably focus on the optic first and get the nicest glass you can afford. Leave enough budget for a good trigger and get to the weight reduction aspects when you can down the road. That's what I'd do if I were you...

 

[Trochlea]

carbon fiber hand guards are gonna save some weight. Dpms makes a lower quality one, Lancer and carbon arms make a little higher quality set up. your buttstock is an a2 which is not all that heavy, but a Magpul moe rifle stock is pretty light. I would weigh yours and compare. as other have said, 1.25 inch groups aint bad from a factory set up especially semiauto. If you are pressed to spend money my upgrades would be scope (sell the nikon) -> trigger (Geissele) -> hand guard/stock. if you are set on doing more, I would start fresh on a complete custom or just go big with a Gap. If you are set on getting tiny groups, ill echo other and urge you to use the money from upgrades to invest in a bolt action.

 

[Guest]

Troy Alpha rail is extremely light, solid, and comes with a couple short and long rails you can add where and if you want. I prefer it without rails or a small rail at bottom front to attach Atlas bipod. Have one on my AR15 Recce rifle and love it. It weighs practically nothing, well under 1lb.

 

[jasonfaz]

For the handguard I'd go with the 14" Fortis Switch. It's 10 ounces. A hair over 12 oz with barrel nut. It's a fantastic upgrade.

My stock suggestion will be pretty subjective based on what I personally prefer for the same type of shooting you do. I should also mention that I don't particularly consider the weight aspect (within reason of course) a top priority on any of my AR10 set ups outside of one 12" 308 that I'm in the process of building. I also shoot most of mine from prone rather often (hunting rigs) and can not stand wobble in my stock when shooting in that position - especially with a monopod. Hence, I like the magpul line up with the locking capability. Zero wobble, super solid just like it'd feel running an A2 or other fixed stock. For max in weight reduction you'd want a CTR. The STR also is pretty light and offers some people a better cheek weld. Price difference is negligible. You'll have to get a 7 position collapsible buffer tube, and carbine length buffer. The most cost effective route might be a POF 7 position buffer tube ($45) that will allow you to run a standard 3.25" AR-15 buffer, and Spikes ST-T2 buffer (DSG Arms had them for $29 a couple days ago), and I'd recommend either a Wolff XP carbine spring or a SpringCo M4 Extra Power spring (red spring). Springs are $15 and $20 respectively. You'll also need a castle nut and end plate to secure the stock & buffer tube to the receiver. Any will do. There are probably more effective buffer weights you could be using but they'd come at a pretty good bump in cost. I'd stick with the ST-T2 or an ST-T3 for now. Again, throw your stock, buffer tube, rifle buffer and spring on eBay or something and put that coin towards the new stock set up. Shouldn't end up being all that huge of an out of pocket for you at the end of the day...

 

[jasonfaz]

Here's the Fortis Switch. It's by far the best hand guard out there for the high profile DPMS receiver set. In my opinion of course....

 

[Guest]

+1 for the CTR when weight is an issue. I'm a UBR fan but have a few CTR's on rifles that weight is a concern.

 

[Trochlea]

Here's the Fortis Switch. It's by far the best hand guard out there for the high profile DPMS receiver set. In my opinion of course....

Not to derail, but why the switch over the fortis rev? Do you find yourrself taking the hand guard off a lot? like the looks, but is it worth the extra cost?

 

[jasonfaz]

The REV is a 5.56/AR15 platform rail. The Switch is a high profile DPMS pattern 308 handguard.

BUT, now that you've mentioned that, it brings up another good point. A lot of people are jumping on the DPMS G2 bandwagon because it can take AR15 handguards - which are traditionally lighter, slimmer, etc. The Switch fucked things up a bit in that regard as the 14" Switch is actually lighter than the 14" REV. The profiles are completely different as well. The REV feels like you're holding a 2x4. It's extremely uncomfortable and awkward. The Switch is much more rounded and feels a hell of a lot more natural gripping. I think the message isn't very clear when it comes to the benefit of the rail. No, I don't take it on and off. However, should one have an adj gas block underneath that they can't get to you certainly could in seconds without disturbing anything on the gun. That wasn't my reason to buy it though. It was 1. Keymod, 2. Light as fuck. 3. Finally something near 15" in length.

I was holding out for the Midwest Industries one initially, but this came out first for the DPMS high profile uppers...

 

[BCP]

I'd say you're better off getting a bolt rifle for your 1000 yard dreams. As for your R25 the biggest weight offender is the barrel it is too damned heavy. If you swapped out the barrel for a lighter profile 16-18" and then added a telescoping buttstock it would be a bit lighter, probably still front heavy though. Don't like the color = krylon it.

As an aside you could shoot 1000 yards right now with your R25. There's nothing wrong with it per se other than the sometimes-shitty factory triggers they come with. Not saying you are going to outshoot the BR guys but with the right load and some patience you should do okay for a beginner.

 

[jasonfaz]

...and to Padom. I think the same exact thing. I love the UBR, but it's on the border line in terms of weight. With respect to weight, let me make an attempt at discouraging anyone who thinks they're going to be running a complete AR10/SR25 with optic and mag under 8 pounds. It just ain't happen'in. At least not in a way that the gun will be in any way enjoyable to shoot.

Here's a project I'm currently working on. I wanted a "lightER" weight 308 that was handy and versatile as hell that I felt comfortable suppressing and confident in accuracy potential out to 500-600 yards. I've been machining on this bitch for two months, doing all sorts of shit. It's only about 1/3 of the way done and currently looks like shit, but it will be the shiznit when I'm done. I'll Cerakote it kryptek, throw a Mark 6 and an MK-13 on it, then call it a day. It's sitting next to an 11.5" 5.56. So it's similar in size dimensionally. There are no internals in the lower, but everything else is there including empty mag. It's STILL 7 lbs 9oz. Optic will push it over 9lbs. With lower done it'll be a 9.5lb 12" 308. Btw - a loaded mag weighs almost a pound and a half (assuming 20 rd mag, 180 gr projos - mag in pic has 15 rounds in it). That's a full, complete set up weighing 11lbs. It's never going to be light...

 

[mcass]

Appreciate everyone's input. Here's the take homes I got:

.308 rifles are heavy, and by the time I add my optics back on, full clip, and bipod, may not matter that the rifles were a 1lb diff.
Getting a significantly better rifle to replace the .308 would be well more than my budget
If I am going to change to a better stock, I will probably add some weight to get better comfort and a better cheekweld, as well as adjustability
If I want to remove weight, it will probably be in the handguard, and maybe the barrel.

The interesting thing I did learn during this exercise, is that changing to a higher quality optic may add as much as double to triple the weight of the scope... so I guess I need to quit worrying about weight as much, and worry more about reliability/repeatability.

Thanks for all of your help!

Here's the Fortis Switch. It's by far the best hand guard out there for the high profile DPMS receiver set. In my opinion of course....

 

[mcass]

So thanks for all the good advice. Things I have learned from this:
-.308 semis are heavy.
-adding better optics will make it heavy enough to not worry about the difference between a r-25 and a recon. My Nikon scope specs at 19oz, the nice vortex scopes at 38.
-adding a better stock is probably a good choice for better comfort, and maybe cheek weld, but I will likely pay a little in weight. The UBR (or I had looked at a prs)
-change the hand guard
-I may be able to save some weight at the barrel
-paint the crappy camo

Thanks again for all the replies.