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New ATF definition of firearm

_Windrider_

Shiner of shoes
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Full Member
Minuteman
  • Jun 26, 2012
    9,667
    12,767
    Orlando, FL
    It’s here ladies and gents.

    take a gander at this steaming pile of dog shit

     
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    Just to be clear:
    Merrick Brian Garland is an American attorney and former jurist serving as the 86th United States attorney general since March 2021.
     
    So does that mean they are going to start requiring a 4473 for uppers now?
    What about stocks, or a Sage chassis for an M14? Doesn't the "trigger mechanism" go in those, not into the receiver?

    It does say "More than one externally visible part may house or hold a fire control component on a particular firearm, such as with a split or modular frame or receiver. Under these circumstances, ATF may determine whether a specific part or parts of the weapon is the frame or receiver, which may include an internal frame or chassis at least partially exposed to the exterior to allow identification." but we all know that the ATF will say one thing for one person and something else entirely for another person on the same day, so that doesn't help shit.

    But if that's the case, enough of a stink needs to be made that A. uppers (in most cases) shouldn't count and B. a chassis or a stock shouldn't count.

    (And when I say "in most cases", I mean in the case of rifles such as the FAL or the SCAR where the upper has always been the "firearm" part of it and the lower isn't. Because FN is weird.)
     
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    Rather than fight the Feds.... May be easier to start legislation to make your state a Second Amendment Sanctuary... Or, do both.

     
    Regardless, everyone needs to leave comments on this rule. It seemed to help the last round of BS. I would suggest some whom speak legalese or have industry experience post some key points we can include that will help sway this our way. I will check back tomorrow myself to see if there are any I can incorporate in my response. Thanks in advance.
     
    3. Split or modular frame or receiver

    This second supplement explains that ATF may determine “in the case of a firearm with more than one part that provides housing or a structure designed to hold or integrate one or more fire control or essential components” whether one or more specific part(s) of a weapon is the frame or receiver, which may include an internal frame or chassis at least partially exposed to the exterior to allow identification. It then sets forth the factors ATF considers in making this determination: “(a) which component the manufacturer intended to be the frame or receiver; (b) which component the firearms industry commonly considers to be the frame or receiver with respect to the same or similar firearms; (c) how the component fits within the overall design of the firearm when assembled; (d) the design and function of the fire control components to be housed or integrated; (e) whether the component may permanently, conspicuously, and legibly be identified with a serial number and other markings in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed; (f) whether classifying the particular component is consistent with the legislative intent of the Act and this part; and (g) whether classifying the component as the frame or receiver is consistent with the Director’s prior classifications.” No single factor is controlling. It would further make clear that “[f]rames or receivers of different weapons that are combined to create a similar weapon each retain their respective classifications as frames or receivers provided they retain their original design and configuration.” This supplement to the general definition addresses one of the core problems of the current definition of “firearm frame or receiver;” namely, that a majority of firearms now use a split or modular design in which more than one part houses a different fire control component and/or incorporates a striker instead of a hammer. It would make clear that even though a firearm, including a silencer, may have more than one part that falls within the definition of “frame or receiver,” ATF may classify a specific part or parts to be the “frame or receiver” of a particular weapon. For this reason, manufacturers may wish to submit samples to ATF for classification of one or more particular components as the frame or receiver so that they need only mark a specific part or parts of a weapon, rather than all qualifying parts (see Section II.H.10 of the preamble) or obtain a marking variance (see Section II.H.6 of the preamble). However, this supplemental definition would also make clear that ATF would not classify an internal frame or chassis as a “frame or receiver” unless it is at least partially exposed to the exterior to allow identification so that licensees accepting them into inventory can quickly record the identifying markings, and law enforcement officers who recover the weapon can easily see the identifying markings for tracing purposes. One important goal of this rule is to ensure that it does not affect existing ATF classifications of firearms that specify a single component as the frame or receiver. Application of the rule, as proposed, would not alter these prior ATF classifications. To provide more clarity, this supplement to the definition would include a nonexclusive list of common weapons with a split/multi-piece frame or receiver configuration for which ATF has previously determined a specific part to be the frame or receiver. If a manufacturer produces or an importer imports a firearm falling within one of these designs as they exist as of the date of publication of a final rule, it can refer to this list to know which part is the frame or receiver. The manufacturer or importer can then mark without needing to ask ATF for a classification. The nonexclusive list identifies the frame or receiver for the following firearms: (i) Colt 1911-type, Beretta/Browning/FN Herstal/Heckler & Koch/Ruger/Sig Sauer/Smith & Wesson/Taurus hammer fired semiautomatic pistols; (ii) Glock-type striker fired semiautomatic pistols; (iii) Sig Sauer P320-type semiautomatic pistols; (iv) certain locking block rail system semiautomatic pistols; (v) AR-15-type and Beretta AR-70-type firearms; (vi) Steyr AUG-type firearms; (vii) Thompson M1A1-type machineguns and semiautomatic variants, and L1A1, FN FAL, FN FNC, MP 38, MP 40, and SIG 550 type firearms, and HK-type machineguns and semiautomatic variants; (viii) Vickers/Maxim, Browning 1919, and M2-type machineguns, and box-type machineguns and semiautomatic variants thereof; and (ix) Sten, Sterling, and Kel-tec Sub-2000-type firearms. However, if there is a present or future split or modular design for a firearm that is not comparable to an existing classification, then the definition of “frame or receiver” would advise that more than one part is the frame or receiver subject to marking and other requirements, unless a specific classification or marking variance is obtained from ATF, as described above.


    ^ So does this mean that since an AR's lower is already defined as the "firearm" part of the weapon, the upper won't suddenly become a serial-requiring "firearm" too? That's how it reads to me?
     

    Please take the time to read the whole 15 page proposal. YES, it will end up serializing and registering all upper receivers. If you think otherwise, you are not paying attention. YES, this will result in slide parts and possibly even barrels in some cases. This is not some innocuous feel good legislation folks! Take it seriously or deal with the results.

    Wake up!
     

    Please take the time to read the whole 15 page proposal. YES, it will end up serializing and registering all upper receivers. If you think otherwise, you are not paying attention. YES, this will result in slide parts and possibly even barrels in some cases. This is not some innocuous feel good legislation folks! Take it seriously or deal with the results.

    Wake up!
    OMG, yer right. What are we supposed to so about it? I'm woke to this issue...but impotent (as are the rest of US) to rectify this. Call my "Representation" and announce my displeasure?

    They have already told me I'm impotent as they are owned /operated by people who want me disarmed and have *Oodles* more money than all of US put together. Still...what's yer Plan?

    VooDoo
     
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    Please take the time to read the whole 15 page proposal. YES, it will end up serializing and registering all upper receivers. If you think otherwise, you are not paying attention. YES, this will result in slide parts and possibly even barrels in some cases. This is not some innocuous feel good legislation folks! Take it seriously or deal with the results.

    Wake up!
    Respectfully, Lash, I'm not sure I see where you're getting that part. Do you mean this:

    1. New Definition of Firearm Frame or Receiver

    The proposed definition of this term would maintain current classifications and current marking requirements of firearm frames or receivers, except that the licensed manufacturer or importer must mark on new designs or configurations either: their name or recognized abbreviation), and city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where they maintain their place of business; or their name (or recognized abbreviation) and their abbreviated FFL number, on each part defined as a frame or receiver, along with the serial number. To ensure traceability if the parts are separated, there would no longer be an option only to mark the FFL’s name, city, and state on the slide or barrel. More specifically—

    •The proposed definitions would take into account the fact that modern firearms do not house all the components as defined in the current definition. These definitions account for firearms such as split frames or multi-piece firearms;


    The proposed definition would recognize the current classifications of a firearm “frame or receiver.” It is intended to encompass the majority, if not all, of existing regulated firearms, and no new marking requirements would be required for these existing designs and configurations;

    •After this proposed rule is finalized, markings on new designs or configurations of firearms manufactured or imported may be accomplished by marking each frame or receiver with the licensee’s name, city, and state, and serial number, or with the licensee’s name and abbreviated license number prefix and number (serial number) in the manner prescribed by existing marking requirements;

    •Markings would need to be accomplished within 7 days of completion of the active manufacturing process for the complete weapon (or frame or receiver of such weapon if not being sold as a complete weapon); and

    •The proposed rule would require acquisition and disposition record changes to accommodate recording multiple frames or receivers that have different serial numbers if the original frames or receivers (with the same serial number) become separated and are reassembled with frames or receivers bearing different serial numbers


    (^ pp. 58, 59, 60)

    That's what's being proposed, no? If that's the case and current classifications, as listed in an addendum (and in my earlier post) to the document, clearly show the lower (and just the lower) of an AR-type rifle labeled as the "frame/receiver" (i.e., the firearm), then that doesn't mean they're gonna end up serializing/registering all upper receivers. Unless I'm missing some key point there, and I admit I could be. Seems to me that only "new" designs would require it, and how many new designs that aren't derived from the AR or any of the preexisting classifications are coming out these days? Not saying they won't come out, and I'm not saying this is feel-good anything, but I am saying that I'm not sure I see the same thing here that you're seeing.

    The only part, maybe, is the "new configuration" part but I didn't see anywhere they explained it. They do list "alternatives considered" which did include full serializing but that was decided against.
     
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    Claiming to end crime by eliminating “ghost guns” (their wording/their definition).

    In the end, No common criminal is going to go to the trouble of purchasing a partially finished frame, acquire the tools to finish the frame, then acquire the tools and parts to assemble the firearm.

    Gun control. Not about eliminating crime. Gun Control, Controlling the serfs to assure that they properly serve and worship the rulers. Control being the key word.
     
    Respectfully, Lash, I'm not sure I see where you're getting that part. Do you mean this:

    1. New Definition of Firearm Frame or Receiver

    The proposed definition of this term would maintain current classifications and current marking requirements of firearm frames or receivers, except that the licensed manufacturer or importer must mark on new designs or configurations either: their name or recognized abbreviation), and city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where they maintain their place of business; or their name (or recognized abbreviation) and their abbreviated FFL number, on each part defined as a frame or receiver, along with the serial number. To ensure traceability if the parts are separated, there would no longer be an option only to mark the FFL’s name, city, and state on the slide or barrel. More specifically—

    •The proposed definitions would take into account the fact that modern firearms do not house all the components as defined in the current definition. These definitions account for firearms such as split frames or multi-piece firearms;


    The proposed definition would recognize the current classifications of a firearm “frame or receiver.” It is intended to encompass the majority, if not all, of existing regulated firearms, and no new marking requirements would be required for these existing designs and configurations;

    •After this proposed rule is finalized, markings on new designs or configurations of firearms manufactured or imported may be accomplished by marking each frame or receiver with the licensee’s name, city, and state, and serial number, or with the licensee’s name and abbreviated license number prefix and number (serial number) in the manner prescribed by existing marking requirements;

    •Markings would need to be accomplished within 7 days of completion of the active manufacturing process for the complete weapon (or frame or receiver of such weapon if not being sold as a complete weapon); and

    •The proposed rule would require acquisition and disposition record changes to accommodate recording multiple frames or receivers that have different serial numbers if the original frames or receivers (with the same serial number) become separated and are reassembled with frames or receivers bearing different serial numbers


    (^ pp. 58, 59, 60)

    That's what's being proposed, no? If that's the case and current classifications, as listed in an addendum (and in my earlier post) to the document, clearly show the lower (and just the lower) of an AR-type rifle labeled as the "frame/receiver" (i.e., the firearm), then that doesn't mean they're gonna end up serializing/registering all upper receivers. Unless I'm missing some key point there, and I admit I could be. Seems to me that only "new" designs would require it, and how many new designs that aren't derived from the AR or any of the preexisting classifications are coming out these days? Not saying they won't come out, and I'm not saying this is feel-good anything, but I am saying that I'm not sure I see the same thing here that you're seeing.

    The only part, maybe, is the "new configuration" part but I didn't see anywhere they explained it. They do list "alternatives considered" which did include full serializing but that was decided against.
    A considered reply requires a considered reply in return. I’m headed to bed, but will go back through it in the morning. It’s obvious that the intent is to redefine what is and is not a frame/receiver. Don’t be led astray by wording specifically couched to mislead you into a false sense that is a minor clarification to existing regs.

    Edit: and no, that section is there to lull FFLs into a ‘so what’ attitude of compliance.

    I’ll get back with you.
     
    I'm guessing this is what Bidens plan was for targeting the kit builders. Who would have thought in 2021 a chunk of metal would require an FFL. I'm guessing a brace announcement will follow.
     
    I'm guessing this is what Bidens plan was for targeting the kit builders. Who would have thought in 2021 a chunk of metal would require an FFL. I'm guessing a brace announcement will follow.
    Something like this could become an unintended bureaucratic nightmare. Koala, you said it “a chunk of metal.” Each and every piece of steel, aluminum and titanium might be required to have a “registered” serial number, that is maintained throughout its lifetime. (And beyond) Every piece of steel in “our ‘mandated’ electric” cars, our appliances, our tools, even down to a socket in a tool set. How does one maintain the serial number of a broken socket that is recycled, or worse, just thrown away.

    These people are beyond stupid in their (blind) quest for power.

    Folks, there ain’t enough trees in the Universe to supply the pulp needed for the paper needed to record/track all of this shit.
     

    Please take the time to read the whole 15 page proposal. YES, it will end up serializing and registering all upper receivers. If you think otherwise, you are not paying attention. YES, this will result in slide parts and possibly even barrels in some cases. This is not some innocuous feel good legislation folks! Take it seriously or deal with the results.

    Wake up!


    This is also talks about consolidation of records, length of time, type of records, and manor which records are held.

    Put those two together and its a registry ready made for every gun not just produced, but that has ever been through a gun smiths logs. The next one will be forcing all FFL's to hand in their records.
     
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    Just how many negative responses do you think it will take for the ATF to not adopt these new standards, 1,000 or 100,000 or 1,000,000 or 5,000,000?

    Probably there's isn't enough people on this Earth for anything we say that will negate any of these "recommendations" from the ATF.

    Does any of those words in these recommendations say what they want to do with those products that are already in the hands of honest, law abiding citizens?
     
    I'm guessing this is what Bidens plan was for targeting the kit builders. Who would have thought in 2021 a chunk of metal would require an FFL. I'm guessing a brace announcement will follow.
    I doubt Biden has his own plan for anything other than eating pudding and watching kiddy porn.

    The alphabet agencies along with most LE groups are the ones writing down "laws" for that dumbfuck to sign.

    He probably had no idea what a kit build was until it was explained to him two weeks ago and won't remember what they are next week.
     
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    How about we all write them in the comments and say no, like for real. Are they really this stupid? How many firearms, serialized or not have the serial numbers on them once in the wrong hands? Let’s be real here. How does this stop anything? It doesn’t. This is complete bullshit. Nope. But I’m sure all the manufacturers and everyone else will fall right in line. Most guns used in crimes are stolen. Ain’t no gangbangers making fucking ghost guns in their mamas house.
     
    OMG, yer right. What are we supposed to so about it? I'm woke to this issue...but impotent (as are the rest of US) to rectify this. Call my "Representation" and announce my displeasure?

    They have already told me I'm impotent as they are owned /operated by people who want me disarmed and have *Oodles* more money than all of US put together. Still...what's yer Plan?

    VooDoo
    If you can't beat em... Join em.
     
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    Can you imagine how many antique firearms will now be illegal. I've got a bunch that wer manufactured by big name companies and none oof them have a serial number. Remember, this was a law until 1968.
     
    Those idiots at the ATF (or "AFT" depending on what president you ask) can never make up their mind...
     
    What’s really irking me about all this.....the manufacturers are dead fucking silent. They should be supporting civilians instead of keeping quiet to preserve military and police contracts.

    all firearms manufacturers, ammo makers, and any accessory manufacturers should stand up and say WE WILL NOT SELL ONE ANYTHING TO ANY .GOV OR .MIL IF THIS SHIT DOESN'T CHANGE.

    instead we get radio fucking silence. Not even static just, a dead channel.
     
    So does that mean they are going to start requiring a 4473 for uppers now?
    That's kinda how I read it
    OMG, yer right. What are we supposed to so about it? I'm woke to this issue...but impotent (as are the rest of US) to rectify this. Call my "Representation" and announce my displeasure?

    They have already told me I'm impotent as they are owned /operated by people who want me disarmed and have *Oodles* more money than all of US put together. Still...what's yer Plan?

    VooDoo
    My feelings exactly. It sucks, but since when do they GAF what I think?

    How about this? I'm going to go on living my life the way I have been till somebody tries to stop me by force and then we'll see how that works out for everyone involved 🤷🏼‍♂️🖕
     

    Please take the time to read the whole 15 page proposal. YES, it will end up serializing and registering all upper receivers. If you think otherwise, you are not paying attention. YES, this will result in slide parts and possibly even barrels in some cases. This is not some innocuous feel good legislation folks! Take it seriously or deal with the results.

    Wake up!
    Not right away, but after 3 or 4 more interpretations yes barrels slides damn near everything is going to have to be serialized. And it's a home built firearm run have to take it to someone who is going to serialise our property and then transfer back to us on a lovely little recently modified ATF form that keeps all the pertinent information about the owner in the firearm on the same front page so that the agent can take a picture during a "compliance inspection" and have all the information they need. A registry by any other name...

    October 26, 2001 we officially became post constitutional America, in March 2020 we became pre Communist America, and they they both started during Republican administrations. Democrats just finish what they start.
     
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    So does that mean they are going to start requiring a 4473 for uppers now?
    IOW, lets know who has the guns.

    But don't worry, gun registration won't lead to disarming American citizens for China's invasion, felony convictions and turning patriots into overnight felons that can't vote.
     
    Based upon my read of the 115-page proposal over breakfast:

    - "Privately made firearms" (PMF) need to be marked within seven (7) days of manufacture. Transfer of the PMF back to the owner would not require a 4473, but would be logged in the licensee's records. This would appear to be the single most impactful outcome of the proposal.

    - The AR15 "frame or receiver" debate gets closed (presumably to address the loophole exposed by recent attempts to prosecute "ghost gun" manufacturing). I do not read this as requiring marking of both the upper and lower receiver at this time.

    - An attempt is make to redefine "readily convertible" receivers, frames, and firearms. Pretty sure this is aimed straight at Polymer80 and other companies which sell kits containing 80% receivers and drill jigs. It's also clear that it's a big no-no to sell an 80% along with other components.

    - The rule clarifies that those who are engaged in the business of marking PMFs can be licensed as Type 1 FFLs (dealer/gunsmith), not Type 7 (manufacturer)

    - Silencers will need to be marked on the outer tubes, not endcaps. It looks like modular silencers (ex.: Q Erector) may need to be marked on each individual module. There is a lot of other babbling on the classification of individual silencer components as "firearms", and the proposal then states that these parts won't need to be individually marked by manufacturers... which I had thought was already the case?

    - A proposal is offered to mark various firearms (PMFs, imports, etc.) with an abbreviated form of the licensee's FFL number in lieu of the town and state.

    - 4473 gets some revisions and clarifications.

    - The process for requesting an ATF opinion on the status of an 80% receiver and armor-piercing ammo is clarified. As an aside, I'm not sure why this reg

    That's what I see, but maybe I'm missing something due to insufficient caffeine.
     
    Something like this could become an unintended bureaucratic nightmare. Koala, you said it “a chunk of metal.” Each and every piece of steel, aluminum and titanium might be required to have a “registered” serial number, that is maintained throughout its lifetime. (And beyond) Every piece of steel in “our ‘mandated’ electric” cars, our appliances, our tools, even down to a socket in a tool set. How does one maintain the serial number of a broken socket that is recycled, or worse, just thrown away.

    These people are beyond stupid in their (blind) quest for power.

    Folks, there ain’t enough trees in the Universe to supply the pulp needed for the paper needed to record/track all of this shit.
    You should look up the spore trackers they have now. They can spray a plant or peice of steel or whatever and then scan the spores for info. They said they can literally track every leaf on a head of lettuce now.
     
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    These guys are getting recidulous. As long as there are Democrats in office or within a position of any sort of power for that matter, it's only going to get worse.
     
    Problem is that there is A LOT left to interpretation (probably as intended) and also we have to ask the question WHO gets to make that interpretation because it really won’t matter what the rule states if they warp it to whatever they want.
     
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    Respectfully, Lash, I'm not sure I see where you're getting that part. Do you mean this:

    1. New Definition of Firearm Frame or Receiver

    The proposed definition of this term would maintain current classifications and current marking requirements of firearm frames or receivers, except that the licensed manufacturer or importer must mark on new designs or configurations either: their name or recognized abbreviation), and city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where they maintain their place of business; or their name (or recognized abbreviation) and their abbreviated FFL number, on each part defined as a frame or receiver, along with the serial number. To ensure traceability if the parts are separated, there would no longer be an option only to mark the FFL’s name, city, and state on the slide or barrel. More specifically—

    •The proposed definitions would take into account the fact that modern firearms do not house all the components as defined in the current definition. These definitions account for firearms such as split frames or multi-piece firearms;


    The proposed definition would recognize the current classifications of a firearm “frame or receiver.” It is intended to encompass the majority, if not all, of existing regulated firearms, and no new marking requirements would be required for these existing designs and configurations;

    •After this proposed rule is finalized, markings on new designs or configurations of firearms manufactured or imported may be accomplished by marking each frame or receiver with the licensee’s name, city, and state, and serial number, or with the licensee’s name and abbreviated license number prefix and number (serial number) in the manner prescribed by existing marking requirements;

    •Markings would need to be accomplished within 7 days of completion of the active manufacturing process for the complete weapon (or frame or receiver of such weapon if not being sold as a complete weapon); and

    •The proposed rule would require acquisition and disposition record changes to accommodate recording multiple frames or receivers that have different serial numbers if the original frames or receivers (with the same serial number) become separated and are reassembled with frames or receivers bearing different serial numbers


    (^ pp. 58, 59, 60)

    That's what's being proposed, no? If that's the case and current classifications, as listed in an addendum (and in my earlier post) to the document, clearly show the lower (and just the lower) of an AR-type rifle labeled as the "frame/receiver" (i.e., the firearm), then that doesn't mean they're gonna end up serializing/registering all upper receivers. Unless I'm missing some key point there, and I admit I could be. Seems to me that only "new" designs would require it, and how many new designs that aren't derived from the AR or any of the preexisting classifications are coming out these days? Not saying they won't come out, and I'm not saying this is feel-good anything, but I am saying that I'm not sure I see the same thing here that you're seeing.

    The only part, maybe, is the "new configuration" part but I didn't see anywhere they explained it. They do list "alternatives considered" which did include full serializing but that was decided against.
    Here you go Son:
    ———-
    From the ATF’s summary . . .

    Under the proposed rule, a “frame or receiver” is any externally visible housing or holding structure for one or more fire control components. A “fire control component” is one necessary for the firearm to initiate, complete, or continue the firing sequence, including, but not limited to, any of the following: hammer, bolt, bolt carrier, breechblock, cylinder, trigger mechanism, firing pin, striker, or slide rails.

    Any firearm part falling within the new definition
    that is identified with a serial number must be presumed, absent an official determination by ATF or other reliable evidence to the contrary, to be a frame or receiver.


    Tell me exactly how an AR upper does NOT fit the above description. Here, I’ll repeat this line in case you missed it the first time:
    “but not limited to, any of the following: hammer, bolt, bolt carrier, breechblock, cylinder, trigger mechanism, firing pin, striker, or slide rails.”

    By my count, at least six, if not seven of the above items are contained in the upper receiver.

    In the DOJ summary statement:

    To help law enforcement trace guns used in a crime, the rule would require that manufacturers include a serial number on the firearm “frame or receiver”

    Now consider which agency will be loosely interpreting these new rules. Do you really believe that Obiden appointed his favorite gun grabber to oversee the ATF and do nothing?
     
    I was glad to see this pass. I wish they would have stuck with the original wording but Asa said it was a no go in that form. Not hating on LE by any stretch but the part about criminal penalties for those that assisted the Feds would have added a little bite to the bark. Most likely it was a paper tiger but I think it sent a message. I'll still take it. At least it's something...
     
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    So now I have to register my fucking Pop Tarts?!?

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