New Barrel, Load Development help please....

[want2learn]

I never achieved the type of accuracy i'd hoped from my last barrel (name brand high quality barrel, good quality factory rifle)....i've been working diligently on technique..both shooting as well as reloading. I believe that i've established a good foundation. I understand that the rate limiting step might well be me. That said, i'll be starting anew with a brand new barrel in a brand new caliber...this time the 6.5 Cr.

I have two questions:

1) does one begin load development immediately after fitting a new barrel...... or does one shoot some set number of rounds to season/mature the barrel prior to beginning load development?

2)in the absence of a chronograph....is it reasonable to assume that a tight horizontal shot pattern on a target might correlate well with a favorable velocity node?

thank you

 

[spife7980]

I will do some basic load development in the new brass in the new barrel to get me something that shoots well while forming cases. Once everything is formed I will narrow down on it in the .1gr increments to really see whats happening.

Generally by ~100 rounds you can start the load development in earnest without too many concerns, it can still speed up later but itll be less dramatic than when new. I use 200 pieces of brass for a barrel usually (especially on something with the barrel life of a creed) so its for sure sped up by that point.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Get a chrono. It’ll make your life and load development much easier.

 

[Pilotscrappy]

Get a chrono. It’ll make your life and load development much easier.

This

While you probably could do a rudimentary ocw test by checking group size , a chronograph will make it so so much easier when you have real data numbers you can use and analyze with a spreadsheet etc.

I picked up a cheap Caldwell chronograph for like 50 bucks off Craigslist and it does the job just fine.

 

[Jordanwickham]

Verticle dispersion is somewhat diagnostic of velocity inconsistency. Really should Chrono at some point if you're looking for precision.

 

[want2learn]

thanks.....makes a lot of sense, i'm saving up for a chronograph

I hope Black Friday will bring some good sales.

This past 2 months ended up being pretty expensive.....had wanted to get a new rifle but mine is ok, figured it's probably best that i learn to make this one work. As such, I purchased a new barrel as well as some reloading components, an expander die and Mr. Galli's book.

I also just purchased a fishing rod for a friend with the help of the forum. All good.

 

[Jordanwickham]

thanks.....makes a lot of sense, i'm saving up for a chronograph

I hope Black Friday will bring some good sales.

This past 2 months ended up being pretty expensive.....had wanted to get a new rifle but mine is ok, figured it's probably best that i learn to make this one work. As such, I purchased a new barrel as well as some reloading components, an expander die and Mr. Galli's book.

I also just purchased a fishing rod for a friend with the help of the forum. All good.

You can get a load worked up without one but you want to atleast borrow one or buddy up with someone that has one and ask to use it just to see what your load is doing.

 

[BBVDD]

How far are you shooting? At 100yds some of my worst s/d had really good groupings.
You will need to shoot much further than 100 to be able to single out a node without a chrono.

 

[want2learn]

thank you, that makes a lot of sense.

...i guess what trouble me even more is that my groupings of .5 to .6 MOA (sometimes a bit better, sometimes a bit worse.) are obtained at 100 yards, no multiple shots through a single hole.

This despite working very hard on technique and reloading. I have a barrel from a well respected barrel maker, a satisfactory rifle which i skim bedded to the factory stock. I can identify no significant tension on the action and i've closely followed the manufacturer's directions regarding torque values. The barrel is free floating and appears clean without significant carbon or copper. The trigger is adjusted as best i can given the stock trigger allowance. I've checked the scope and ring torque settings. The rail is a fixed unit with the receiver.

i will try to get to a 200 yard range in the coming weeks.

i just measured and drew up a paper target that should allow me to asses the quality and reproducibility of my scope turret adjustments at that range.

currently unfortunately i don't have access to longer range venues .

I ordered a new barrel in a different caliber....I'm hoping my performance will prove more favorable with this new endeavor. It's certainly possible i'm just not a good rifle shot....and yet, i shoot pretty respectful small and tight groups from several of my pistols? it's so interesting.

 

[Dthomas3523]

thank you, that makes a lot of sense.

...i guess what trouble me even more is that my groupings of .5 to .6 MOA (sometimes a bit better, sometimes a bit worse.) are obtained at 100 yards, no multiple shots through a single hole.

This despite working very hard on technique and reloading. I have a barrel from a well respected barrel maker, a satisfactory rifle which i skim bedded to the factory stock. I can identify no significant tension on the action and i've closely followed the manufacturer's directions regarding torque values. The barrel is free floating and appears clean without significant carbon or copper. The trigger is adjusted as best i can given the stock trigger allowance. I've checked the scope and ring torque settings. The rail is a fixed unit with the receiver.

i will try to get to a 200 yard range in the coming weeks.

i just measured and drew up a paper target that should allow me to asses the quality and reproducibility of my scope turret adjustments at that range.

currently unfortunately i don't have access to longer range venues .

I ordered a new barrel in a different caliber....I'm hoping my performance will prove more favorable with this new endeavor. It's certainly possible i'm just not a good rifle shot....and yet, i shoot pretty respectful small and tight groups from several of my pistols? it's so interesting.

How much have you messed with seating depth? If the shooter and the rifle is doing their job, seating depth is going to dictate your group size.

 

[want2learn]

thanks, i've been reading and learning a lot from your posts..... and as such purchased an expander die and mandrel.

on a load that seems promising i recently seated projectiles at several sequential depths.

....i hope to test out your suggestion in the coming week.

 

[Jrb572]

I had good luck with my 185 juggernaut .308 load using this from 6.5 guys. I am waiting on some ELDMs for my .260 barrel and I am going to see if I will work as well again this time.

10 Round Load Development Ladder Test

Identifying a consistent and accurate load for your precision rifle while improving the overall efficiency of the load development process is a laudable goal. The 6.5 Guys met with Scott Satterlee …

www.65guys.com

 

[GIXXER2000]

I get 50 rounds down the tube then start with load development.

 

[want2learn]

thanks...grateful for the info and help

 

[Sig Marine]

Since I don’t buy factory ammunition, I start right from the “get-go”. I find a load range for the caliber using the brass, powder and bullet I intend to use and load up 10 rounds of a charge weight that’s near the middle of the lower half to zero the scope. I then load up a pressure test to find my limit and from that information, load and shoot an OCW. I choose a load based on my results, load 10 rounds to chrono and then go shoot. I will retest and tune the load after the barrel speeds up but rarely have to change the load by more than 0.1 grains or 0.2.

Just did a load work up for a .300 PRC with only 77 rounds down the barrel and got 2982 fps with an ES of 22 and SD of 6.6 and have every confidence it will shoot well out past a mile. Numbers will get better after the brass becomes more consistent by fire forming but for now, no need to waste barrel life waiting for the barrel to speed up or the brass to fire form. Just my method, YMMV

 

[Steel head]

I load 100 of the new brass with a mild load.
Then barrel will probably be sped up and brass is once fired.
Do a speed test looking for a speed node/nodes and or a ES node.
Then do a jump test.
All I’m looking for is a load with acceptable sd/es and capable of 1/2 or a bit more groups.

Go shooting because that load will be plenty good for anything except bench rest or high level F class.

 

[want2learn]

i'll update when i get the new barrel.

learning a lot for everyone, thanks.

i've got to focus my efforts better...hoping for benchrest groups while using a more PRS like set up. Likely expecting too much too soon as i work to get better at reloading, improving shooting technique all while purchasing and integrating new tools and devices. I will keep working at it.

 

[Sig Marine]

Purpose and budget. In this case the purpose is shooting steel and the budget is, not only money but, time. I think having a rifle and load that will shoot 0.5 MOA is more than adequate for what you are trying to accomplish. While some may disagree, I think most will agree that you will miss more shots from wind than having a 0.5 MOA system.

Getting a decent load for your purposes doesn't require going down the "hole". Having a method that produces consistent ammunition doesn't have to be complicated, time consuming or expensive. Use good brass, find through research what bullets/powder work well in your caliber, start with a jump most find successful and start from there. Chasing the "perfect" load is a waste of time, money and barrel life. There are too many combinations of; brass, bullets, powder, primers, seating depths, neck tensions, etc. to test while trying to find the one load that is the absolute best. Find one that shoots at least 0.5 MOA with decent ES/SD and then spend your time working on fundamentals, shooting off of obstacles and learning to shoot in the wind.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Most think higher levels of ammo take a ton of time to get. They don’t if you have the proper equipment and process. But you have to be realistic.

If you’re throwing off a not so great scale (won’t argue what a good and not good scale is), your ES will be too much to be consistent at distance.

If you’re not get consistent neck tension (and most aren’t even really measuring it), your groups will open up.

If the shooter and/or rifle system isn’t capable of shooting .2’s, you’ll never see .2’s.

Now, if you have all the boxes above checked, you can make any load shoot .2 or .3 @ 100yds simply with seating depth. Charge weight doesn’t matter much (hence close distance BR shooters using powder throws successfully). So if that’s all you want, that’s easy.

If you have good loading equipment, a good chrono, good rifle, and good shooter, you can make a .3 rifle with <25 ES and <10 sd very easy. And you can do it with 50-100rnds of load development.

 

[want2learn]

thank you both....i guess i was missing the forest for the tree.

 

[Dthomas3523]

It’s also a journey. And you don’t let your progress hold you up.

Say you have a match coming up (practical type match) and your goal is <20 es and <10sd with .3 groups. You’re still learning and tweaking your process. You end up with 40es 18sd and .7 groups.

You damn well should still go to that match. That’s plenty good and better than some factory ammo at times. I’ve seen guys miss matches over that type of shit.

Shoot the match and next week go back and work on your ammo some more. There’s nothing wrong with chasing perfect ammo as long as it’s not taking away from becoming the best marksman you can be. (Unless your real hobby is loading, in that case, focus on that)

 

[smoothy8500]

currently unfortunately i don't have access to longer range.

you have access to MCCS range at Camp Pendleton with your Dbids card, giving you up to 400 yards for ladder test. I can meet you and bring a chrono.

 

[want2learn]

smoothy8500, you're the best....

i had consulted with a close friend's son who is stationed at Camp Pendleton. He informed me that range access was closed for civilians due to precautions for covid which i could totally understand.....so i didn't persue it further. The club website didn't list any events either...or perhaps i missed it?

Regardless, this is fantastic news....please email or pm me if you're free this week or next weekend. that would be fantastic.

 

[Jordanwickham]

smoothy8500, you're the best....

i had consulted with a close friend's son who is stationed at Camp Pendleton. He informed me that range access was closed for civilians due to precautions for covid which i could totally understand.....so i didn't persue it further. The club website didn't list any events either...or perhaps i missed it?

Regardless, this is fantastic news....please email or pm me if you're free this week or next weekend. that would be fantastic.

Good stuff

 

[Jabot]

It’s also a journey. And you don’t let your progress hold you up.

Say you have a match coming up (practical type match) and your goal is <20 es and <10sd with .3 groups. You’re still learning and tweaking your process. You end up with 40es 18sd and .7 groups.

You damn well should still go to that match. That’s plenty good and better than some factory ammo at times. I’ve seen guys miss matches over that type of shit.

Shoot the match and next week go back and work on your ammo some more. There’s nothing wrong with chasing perfect ammo as long as it’s not taking away from becoming the best marksman you can be. (Unless your real hobby is loading, in that case, focus on that)

Good info there .I won a match with a gun shooting 1 moa .not saying it is something I would like to live with it just happened to be what I was stuck with at that moment. Shoot your gun have fun and then go back work on reloading and fundamentals, good luck

 

[want2learn]

Thanks Jabot...will do.
Mr. Galli's book should be here in the coming week, looking forward to devouring it.

 

[smoothy8500]

Good info there .I won a match with a gun shooting 1 moa .not saying it is something I would like to live with it just happened to be what I was stuck with

That's why I like NRA F-Class, that 4MOA target and a leisurely 20 rounds in 22 minutes (and you get sighters) is quite forgiving with 1 MOA ammunition.

 

[want2learn]

I do have a .223 AR with a W.O.A. barrel , i think it was the SPR barrel...i can pull the scope and bipod off the other rifle so i should be good to go with that set up. I should take it out again, work up a load for it and zero it. I'll see if i can get some dies. I haven't shot the AR in a very long time.

 

[Steel head]

I do have a .223 AR with a W.O.A. barrel , i think it was the SPR barrel...i can pull the scope and bipod off the other rifle so i should be good to go with that set up. I should take it out again, work up a load for it and zero it. I'll see if i can get some dies. I haven't shot the AR in a very long time.

I shot mine for the first time in ages on Thursday

was kinda fun to bang steel with with the pea shooter.

 

[want2learn]

It's so funny, right after dinner i'm going to see if i can get it out, give it a good cleaning and then i'll shop for some dies.

 

[Steel head]

<<<<<goes to find the 77smk’s and 8208XBR I have somewhere.

 

[clcustom1911]

I never achieved the type of accuracy i'd hoped from my last barrel (name brand high quality barrel, good quality factory rifle)....i've been working diligently on technique..both shooting as well as reloading. I believe that i've established a good foundation. I understand that the rate limiting step might well be me. That said, i'll be starting anew with a brand new barrel in a brand new caliber...this time the 6.5 Cr.

I have two questions:

1) does one begin load development immediately after fitting a new barrel...... or does one shoot some set number of rounds to season/mature the barrel prior to beginning load development?

2)in the absence of a chronograph....is it reasonable to assume that a tight horizontal shot pattern on a target might correlate well with a favorable velocity node?

thank you

What bullet weight are you wanting to use? 140 class?

41-41.5 of H4350 or Reloder 16 in whatever brass and between 0.020-0.060 off the lands should be a rather fantastic place to start. You may just be able to "set it and forget it"

Of course dont do it just because I say it, that's unsafe. Load 5 each at 41, 41.2, 41.4, 41.6 and see where they lay.

 

[want2learn]

i've tried working up a variety of loads of 6.5x47L using Varget with Lapua 120gn and 123 gn...as well as Berger 140s. I was able to get them all to .5 or .7 MOA groups with a little work.... but unfortunately could not consistently secure much smaller groupings.

I've tried so many ways to figure out distance to the lands but each and every time i tried some method i got widely varying depths (...i purchased the Hornady tool, i cut up the neck of a case, i even tried color coating a cartridge without powder and primer and gently closed the bolt to see if i could get a consistent reading to little avail).

I have a Sig SSG3000 and parts are near impossible to come by in the US.....didn't look like an easy way to remove the extractor from the bolt so i didn't push it.

What i finally ended up doing was seating a projectile very long in an empty case and slowly closed the bolt. I calculated that the COTB i ended up with was the maximal length for that projectile. I seated identical loads at -0.010 to -0.040 from that value, they all chambered easily. I hope to try these rounds shortly.

The reality is i'm getting a new barrel chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor very shortly, waiting on my seating die....so i'll start the process all over with this new caliber. It's a 27inch, 1:8 twist barrel. I purchased some 144gn Lapua scenars. I've got a pound of Varget and a pound of H4350. I appreciate the information.

 

[Jabot]

I assume u mean take the ejector out to make it easier to find the lands

 

[want2learn]

yes, sorry