New powder clumping?

timelinex

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
  • May 7, 2011
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    Scottsdale,Az
    Is it normal to have powder a bit clumpy?

    My 8lb jug of retumbo always has a few clumps in it when I pour it out into my chargemaster. It's been like that since I opened it new. It was bought a year or so ago and kept in a climate controlled house. Also keep in mind that it's Phoenix, Arizona so humidity is always low.

    I always just stirred it it around to break the clumps and called it a day. Recently I noticed that the rifle that uses it, while accurate at close range, has some serious SD issues (like 30 for SD with 5 round groups!). I never thought much of the clumping but my friend said that's not normal and could cause inconsistent burn.

    Any opinions on this?
     
    Last edited:
    Is it normal to have powder a bit clumpy?

    My 8lb jug of retumbo always has a few clumps in it when I pour it out into my chargemaster. It's been like that since I opened it new. It was bought a year or so ago and kept in a climate controlled house. Also keep in mind that it's Phoenix, Arizona so humidity is always low.

    I always just stirred it it around to break the clumps and called it a day. Recently I noticed that the rifle that uses it, while accurate at close range, has some serious SD issues (like 30 for SD with 5 round groups!). I never thought much of the clumping but my friend said that's not normal and could cause inconsistent burn.

    Any opinions on this?

    I have noticed same over past two months twice with one keg of Retumbo. I have two kegs but have not cracked second as of yet. I am trying to remember if I had same clump with prior 5 or 6 one pound Retumbo. I believe I did but not close to golf ball size.

    When I first noticed or hit me was out of a pretty new keg of Retumbo. Clump appeared to be size of a golf ball or larger. I gave keg a few good up/down shakes and that cleared it up. I can say for sure I have only seen this with Retumbo and no other powder, H1000, 7828, RS Magnum.

    I have not had any large SD's in the few times I have measured my fps. I would say a high SD with Retumbo this year was in low 20's. On average I have been around 14 to 16 - best were 8 - 11's.

    Not sure if any of above helps. Just when I read your Subject it brought back the memory of the golf ball size clump. Then, when I saw you mentioned Retumbo I got really interested.

    Just a little more information in case you are wondering:
    FED215M and CCi 250 and always Lapua Brass
    All Lapua brass started out Virgin this year.
    I had Retumbo Kegs for a few months before I cracked first keg.
    I purchased kegs around April or May 2014

    Safe shooting...
     
    High SD is more likely a primer or brass sorting/ prep issue.
    Not much primer choices for 338lm I don't think.... I use 215M's. As far as brass prep, we are talking about lapua brass with everything done (and annealing every reload) except neck turning.

    I weight charges with a chargemaster and confirm on the scott parker tuned M5 scale. The rifle is an AX338 with thunderbeast suppressor. Accuracy is good, SD #'s are horrible. The reason that I started looking into the chrono numbers in the first place is because at 1000 accuracy was still gread, 1500 was still decent, But by a mile the elevation changes was really bad. I initially thought it was from the barrel overheating or the suppressor overheating or a bunch of other things. I ruled out each one by one by testing and also by asking knowledgeable people on here on their experiences with the specific scenario of overheating or suppressor(LL and zack with TBAC). When I got to testing the chrono numbers with my magnetospeed, which has always been right on with my other rifles, the picture the numbers painted is synonymous with my results at long range.

    Interestingly, I tried a 5 round group of corbon factory 300gr ammo and it produced a 2/3moa group which is great for factory ammo, but the SD was bad too at 35! (2727,2782,2757,2820,2748).

    With these bad SD numbers, its not that there is one 'flier' FPS wise, but they are spread it pretty evenly.

    I'm not sure what to try next. I'm thinking I might try loading up a couple with my friends retumb and primers, and then also try loading with h1000.
     
    Not much primer choices for 338lm I don't think.... I use 215M's. As far as brass prep, we are talking about lapua brass with everything done (and annealing every reload) except neck turning.

    I weight charges with a chargemaster and confirm on the scott parker tuned M5 scale.

    With these bad SD numbers, its not that there is one 'flier' FPS wise, but they are spread it pretty evenly.

    I'm not sure what to try next. I'm thinking I might try loading up a couple with my friends retumb and primers, and then also try loading with h1000.

    Hey Timelinex,

    Not sure if any of following may make sense to your situation.

    I know you previously mentioned you double check your RCBS with second scale.

    I found my RCBS CM does not throw consistent charges. At least for me.
    In example below my CM said charge was 24.7 but yet my Sarorius AY 123 says other, 24.60. Granted this is a .223 powder charge but still 0.1 grains off. So my thought is IF my .338 LM powder charge even varies from 92.05 to 92.15 that one grain spread just be cause for high SD??? Maybe???
    ScaleSetUpSmall.jpg


    * I went with above setup when I was experiencing high ES' two years ago. Once I went this route, along with other changes made my ES dropped significantly.
    * IF I get real anal and stick with 92.10 and 92.12 powder charges my SD's drop to 8 to 11 and this is without neck turned brass.
    * When I sort my hand loads by ease of bullet seating SD decreases. <<< Does this make sense?
    * maybe various neck tension is helping in SD issue?

    I am just trying to throw thoughts out at you to see if maybe something throws a spark.

    Another thought I just had. Have you considered purchasing another box of 100 Lapua Brass? Probably a long shot, I am wondering if annealing brass after each firing maybe causing inconsistent neck tension??? I am wondering what your results would be if you broke a new lot of 100 into say 5 lots of 20 and went from there. Not sure if this makes any sense to try.

    I spoke with another guy on here who had his custom .338 LM built by same Gun Builder as I and he wound up changing from Retumbo to H1000 and his groups to one mile tightened up. He has a thread on here displaying a 5 shot 8 inch group at a mile. I do not know if he had SD or ES issues. I do know he had VERTICAL issues with Retumbo at 1000 yards. H1000 rectified his VERTICAl issue.

    Have you tested your scale with following or similar?
    Example:
    1. Throw charge via CM (92.1)
    2. Double check above on your Scott Parker tuned M5 << I assume will confirm
    Q1: How many kernels do you have to remove from SP scale to reach 92.0 grains from 92.1?
    Q2: How many kernels do you have to remove from SP scale to reach 92.2 grains from 92.1
    Q3: What does your SP scale read when you take a confirmed 92.1 charge MINUS two kernels?
    Q4: What does your SP scale read when you take a confirmed 92.1 charge ADD two kernels?
    Not sure if you follow my thought and where I am going with above.

    Safe shooting
     
    Just shake the bottle or jug before pouring it into the powder dispenser. Will cure any clumping which is perfectly normal for almost all powders at one time or another. If the clumps won't break up with a good shake, you have a problem with that powder and I wouldn't be loading it.
     
    Just shake the bottle or jug before pouring it into the powder dispenser. Will cure any clumping which is perfectly normal for almost all powders at one time or another. If the clumps won't break up with a good shake, you have a problem with that powder and I wouldn't be loading it.

    I have some WSF that clumps.
    A decent shake and all is good.
     
    Im checking with a Scott Parker tuned be scale, so I'm not too worried about the accuracy of the chargemaster.

    I'm going out today and doing a couple new things. I'm shooting my load with 5 shots at 1 full grain less and 5 with cci primers. Then I'm doing a pressure test with h1000 powder from 88gr to 93gr with both my 285s and 300gr bergers.
     
    I'm curious, what is your current Retumbo charge? Same charge you are finding high SD's.

    I am curious to hear your results with 285 and Berger pressure test. I have two kegs of H1000 along with same bullets above but have not tested much. Turned out my custom is very accurate with 300 SMK's over 92.11 Retumbo sparked by either 215M or CCI 250's.

    Furthest pressure test I completed with H1000 and 300 OTM's was 92.20 at full mag feed. No pressure signs at all. Have not tried 285's and H1000.

    sent via Tapatalk
     
    I had great results out of my savage 110ba (believe it or not) with retumbo and 300gr bergers. Load was just a tad over a half minute load with a single digit ES. 'upgraded' to the ax and have had a bit of trouble finding it's sweet spot. My first try was with 300gr bergers and retumbo. That wouldn't group for anything. Then the 285s I stuck with grouped great until I joined how it fell apart at long range and chronod it. That's where I was at now with it.

    Went out today and I think I have some good news. The rifle might just prefer h1000. Changing the charge to the next lower node with retumbo didn't help SD. Changing the primers to cci, wasn't great accuracy but had better spreads(12 SD, but only did one 5 round group) . If I wanted to stay with retumbo I would look in to doing an OCW with these new primers and see where it takes me.

    What really shined was the h1000 pressure testing with both 300gr bergers and 285gr. Both of them showed atleast 1 great node, where a full grain, or more, had impacts all within 1/2" AND very closer velocities. Nothing concrete yet since there isn't enough round down range, but its a gleam of hope! The only downside is it looks like it be sacrificing about 50fps compared to the retumbo, but consistency is worth it.
     
    a8aty3yn.jpg


    Here's the berger h1000 test of 89gr,89.5gr,90.0gr and 90.5gr. Velocities are on there of 2759,2757,2757,2783. So 89.7gr or so looks like it might be a nice and cozy center of the node. Obviously more testing will be needed to confirm.

    The bolt lift was starting to be a bit harder, but nothing I wouldn't expect from my LR rig.
     
    Retumbo & H1000 are ADI AR2225 & AR2217, neither are sold in 4Kg bulk packs AR2218 (50BMG), AR2209 (H4350), AR2208, (Varget), AR2206H (H4895) are, apparently it may be due to clumbing...who knows, just break them up & go for it.
     
    Retumbo & H1000 are ADI AR2225 & AR2217, neither are sold in 4Kg bulk packs AR2218 (50BMG), AR2209 (H4350), AR2208, (Varget), AR2206H (H4895) are, apparently it may be due to clumbing...who knows, just break them up & go for it.

    If you would not mind, what is availability like in your neck of woods for below mentioned powders in both 8lb/4Kg and 1lb/0.5Kg? I am not familiar with weight size your containers are sold.

    AR2225 (Retumbo)
    AR2217 (H1000)
    AR2209 (H4350)
    AR2208 (Varget) and <<<< Especially this in 8lb/4Kg
    AR2206H (H4895)
     
    If you would not mind, what is availability like in your neck of woods for below mentioned powders in both 8lb/4Kg and 1lb/0.5Kg? I am not familiar with weight size your containers are sold.

    AR2225 (Retumbo)
    AR2217 (H1000)
    AR2209 (H4350)
    AR2208 (Varget) and <<<< Especially this in 8lb/4Kg
    AR2206H (H4895)

    I forgot AR2213SC (H4831SC)

    Can get AR2206H, AR2207 (H4198), AR2208, AR2209, AR2218 in 4Kgs, 8.8lbs
    Also H4831SC, H1000 in 8lbs
    Most are still available in 1lb & 0.5Kgs
    We are getting short of powder here too, the shipment from the US was supposed to be here in Jan/Feb this year, might be Jan/Feb next year at the rate we are going...
    We still have the ADI powder available.
     
    a8aty3yn.jpg


    Here's the berger h1000 test of 89gr,89.5gr,90.0gr and 90.5gr. Velocities are on there of 2759,2757,2757,2783. So 89.7gr or so looks like it might be a nice and cozy center of the node. Obviously more testing will be needed to confirm.

    The bolt lift was starting to be a bit harder, but nothing I wouldn't expect from my LR rig.

    * Not sure what happened to my original post as I just realized it is not here.

    I find your velocities appealing based on your charges and barrel length. I do not recall obtaining anything close with my 110 BA 338 two years ago using same components.
     
    * Not sure what happened to my original post as I just realized it is not here.

    I find your velocities appealing based on your charges and barrel length. I do not recall obtaining anything close with my 110 BA 338 two years ago using same components.

    With my 110ba I did 92.0gr of retumbo with the 300gr bergers for a whopping 2805. The barrel was surprisingly fast. My friends AI and surgeon with similar loads do something like 2775 and 2727. My ax with similar did in the 2700s as well.
     
    Loaded up 18 rounds of 89.5gr h1000 behind the bergers and went to the range today. Success! 1/2moa groups and single digit ES's every group.

    Im not sure if it's the batch of retumbo or if my rifle just liked h1000 test much better, but I'm a very happy camper.

    Now I just need to find somewhere to buy more h1000!