New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

[Aer454]

I've been looking around the net and stumbled across this awesome site and had to sign up! Was happy to see a few people from my area too (Western Washington.)

I've probably put around 50,000 .22 rounds through different guns growing up, and maybe a 10th of that through mini 14's, SKS's, etc.. I still have my old Marlin 22 that my dad bought me when I was 13 (24 now,) but I'm wanting to pick up something for long range target shooting. I've recently read that it's generally not advised for a new shooter to go for a large caliber gun at first. The article I read suggested something along the lines of becomming fluent with a .22, then a .308 or the like, before moving on to the big stuff. That way, the shooter learns proper shooting techniques and not to flinch and all that, and sort of progress their way up to the larger stuff, which I of course understand and agree with. But I'm the kind of guy that likes to know what step 3 is before taking step 1 and 2.

I've been looking at a lot of the ballistics on the different cartridges out there, as that seems to be one of the crucial steps in deciding what rifle to buy. On paper, the .300 weatherby mag seems like one of the best choices out there if I'm not going to self-load RUM rounds. Yet I see little mention of it on most long-range targeting forums. Why? Also, in reference to what I was talking about earlier, on the 'working your way up' to the bigger cartridges, there is a .270 Weatherby Mag that, as far as muzzel velocity and 200yard velocity is concerned, very closely matches the .300 Weatherby... Theoretically, would shooting those two rifles keep the shooter more 'dialed in' to each gun? I do a lot of archery and while I know it's comparing apples to oranges, I know when I go from my 75# bow to my friends 55# I have to considerably change my 'eye' to compensate for the different "lob" of the arrow, and it takes a few shots to get back into the groove with my own bow... would the same concept apply to the rifle if the shooter had a gun that shot a very high velocity round like the .300 Weatherby and also shot a slow .30-30?

Lastly and much more to the point, can anyone give me some thoughts on the .300 Weatherby Mag for long-range target shooting? Only reason I'm sort of fixed on that particular cartridge is because of what I see on paper. I'd like to get a couple different rifles, namely a Remy 700 in the .300 Weatherby Mag, Mini-14 because I've always liked them, and a smaller caliber bolt action like a .270 or something.. So... any suggestions/advice for a relatively new shooter for their first mid/long-range rifle set up? Any advice would be appreciated.

-Bill

 

[doc76251]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

Welcome Bill.

As you've noted there is a lot of good info here. On to your questions.

The 300WBY is a nice cartridge if you are going to be shooting 20 rounds a year. Ballistically it rocks but isn't the most cost effective cartridge out there. Weatherby brass or ammo for that matter is insanely expensive.

Most of us here get a lot of our information because we're broke and have to figure stuff out on our own, on the cheap.

There is nothing small about the 270 except the diameter for the bullet. It is essentially a 30-06 necked down to .270 and it comes in a long action.

If you want a big gun to have a big gun then buy what you wish. If you want to buy a rifle to train on and teach yourself about long range shooting get a .308 and start reloading.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Aer454]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

Thanks for the info, Doc.

Why get into reloading? I know next to nothing about it. What are the advantages?

How much does a 20round box of .300 Weatherby Mag cost? I never really thought about the cost of shooting *after* already having your set up.

And also, the .270 is basically a faster, flatter-flying round than the .308? Just lighter? Interesting.

Thanks again for the info, I'll start looking more heavily at the .308's that are out there.

 

[hue001t]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

i recently got into reloading and i think the main reasons i did it were that my groups shrank instantly due to the fact you can tune the load to your rifle as well as money after you buy the initial tools to reload its pretty inexpensive. like 130$ and i can make 100 rounds(that's while reusing the brass) if i were to buy 100 rounds it cost generally 200$ but the groups will suffer quite a bit.

 

[Willys46]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

My .02,
THe 300 WBY is a great Hunting gun. It is expensive to shoot ($40.00/20) and that may be to cheap and LOTS of recoil. I love the cartirge and Ballistics, but the cons out way the pros for "target shooting".

IF you looking to get into longer range, like everyone will tell you get a 308. Cheaper to shoot, less recoil, and you have to "learn" how to shoot in conditions.

As for the 270, another Great hunting cartrige. The 270 is getting a better bullet selection but you better off staying in the 30cal range.

If I was starting over and wanted a small gun and a larger gun combination i would look at the 308--300win mag, 7mm08--7 Rem mag. Other good choices for small are 243 and 260.

I like to kee them in the same caliber to save on the bullets I have to buy.

Reloading saves money and you can tailor load a round for your gun. If you plan on shooting alot, its a must!

One more thing, do not just get hung up on ballistics. It dose not matter really which one shoots flatter you are going to have to compensate for bullet drop anyway. Flatter is nice but not the only thing to look at.

Willys

 

[prplhaz72]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

I mostly reload to save money. While it does cost some money to initially get the reloading equipment. And the more you learn about it, it seems like the more tools you need and want to make more accurate bullets. But still when you consider paying $30+ for a box of match .308 and can load one for less than half that it does not take long to pay for all that equipment.

And as others have stated you can make ammo tailored to your rifle so it is more accurate, which is always a good thing

 

[steve123]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

Aer454,

If shooting out to 600Y and don't reload then 223 rem with heavy bullets will suffice.

Mini 14's are notoriously inaccurate but fun plinkers.

AR-15 would be the better choice.Buy a used one with a 1 in 7-8 twist match barrel and it will cover allot of bases for you.

300 Weatherby will hurt to shoot in a sporter weight rifle unless you have a muzzle brake,ammo is expensive and they are hard on barrels.Meaning a short barrel life.Just better choices is all.

I'd advise spending wisely.I would spend my $ on one good bolt rifle.6.5x55 Sweed or 6.5 Creedmoor.They would be great choices if you don't want to reload.Good barrel life,medium recoil,high BC bullets.Also there's always 308win but I personally prefer other cartridges instead.

For long range shooting the Ballistic Coefficient of the bullet is preferable to outright speed.BC equates to more retained velocity/energy and less wind drift.

Steve

 

[Hummer]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

I have never seen a long range gun on the 1000 yard line at Perry in 300 Weatherby Mag.

I have seen hundreds of 300 Win Mags and 6.5/284s in the Any Rifle catagory. 6.5/284 wins most 1000 yard competition now days but the record is held with a 300 Win mag by Kovalchek 200-19Xs. X ring is 10 inches at 1000. Both are barrel eaters. Figure on changing barrels about 500 rounds.

Both require meticulous handloading. In fact anything you shoot will require same.

A 308 Win is the best deal because you can shoot all the 1000 yard and Palma Match courses with it. If it is going to be a one gun thing, best go with 308 and you need to make a decision if you are going to try for a Palma Team go with slow twist and 155 gr. bullets.

If you are going to shoot steel gongs, hunt etc I would go with 12 twist barrel, 26" Palma Light or Palma Medium contour with a tight chamber.

Clean it often with bronze brush just as soon after shooting as possible. Try not to shoot a cold dirty barrel, the carbon residue from burned propellant gets hard when cold and becomes an abrasive. Keep scrubbing with bronze brush and wet patches till patches come out clean. Doing so will allow your tube to last much longer. Get good quality barrel as well.

 

[Aer454]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

All great advice, thank you. I know the mini 14 wouldn't be hitting MOA at 400 yards or anything, but it's always seemed like a great "bush" rifle to have on hand while hiking around the woods. Fun to plink with, with some practice and good optics it seems reasonable to be able to hit 6" targets out to 300 yards or so, no?

As for the recoil, I've yet to shoot anything that bothered me really. Only thing that came close was shooting 3 1/2" nitro mag's through my uncle's 12g but I was also 14 at the time. I don't know if it's because I have descent form and/or my size (6'2", 245lbs) and simple weight vs intertia comes into play. But I'm not really concerned with getting hit from a large caliber 20 rounds every month or two. Unless of course, I have no idea what I'm getting into and will get a rude awakening haha.

As for the cost, I would like to learn how to shoot and get good out to like 800-1000 yards. Like anything, it would take frequent practice to start seeing the results I want, but I doubt I would be going out shooting much more than 8-10 times a year. If I were to have a few rifles when going out, I think it'd be realistic to guess throwing a box (20) through my long range rifle to keep up on my form/skill and kill 500 rounds of .22 and a box or two through the smaller stuff. I guess as for the cost, I'm not really concerned with it. Handloading seems like it would both save money, and help further one's "education" in the shooting experience overall. But I don't think I'll ever get into doing it. I'd rather just spend an extra $20 and get a box all set to go. =P

As several of you have mentioned the .308 would be a great way to go. It's a cartridge I'm familiar with and with proper gear and practice it sounds like I could eventually start hitting targets out to the longer ranges. I don't know much about the 7mm or the other cartridges someone else mentioned though I'll look into them more.


Lastly - as for the BC of the cartridge being a more important factor over speed, where do I find this info? Most of the time when I look for ballistic info, it doesn't contain the bullets BC rating. And what is considered a good BC rating? While checking out the .300 WBY ballistics on their website, I seen some of the ammo for it was down below 300 and some were just above 500. Is that good/bad? What does the BC number tell me, what should I look for?

Thanks again everyone for all the responces! Giving me a lot ot think about and I'm enjoying learning! ^.^

-Bill

 

[Aer454]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

Forgot to mention that I don't have any interest in competition shooting. Only person I'll be competing with is myself. And I'll definitely be owning several rifles. Ideally giving me a range from a .223 plinker like the mini-14 to a long range, to mid-sized hunters and a heavy hitter for long-rangeing and something I can pack with me for safety while bowhunting bear w/ my uncle (300 WBY was going to be filling the last two slots)

 

[steve123]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

Aer454,

Here is a good place to play around with BC's and such.They have a bullet list that lists BC's once inputted.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/calculations/calculations.html

.3 BC's=hohum,.4 BC's=OK,.5 BC's=good,.6 BC's=really good.

It takes a 208+grain 30cal to get up into the same BC as a 140 grain 6.5 or 162 gr 7mm.

There's nothing wrong with 300WBY for the purposes you've stated.

Most of us here on the Hide here are dedicated long range shooters so 20 rounds every once in a while is not our cup of tea.

Try your 22 at 200 yards for some fun.It teaches you some wind reading skills and is a great challenge on pop cans.

Steve

 

[Aer454]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

Thanks for the BC info, I'll check it out. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be out shooting a lot more than that. But full time work & college, plus the wife and kid sort of put a restraint on time lol.

I'll start looking around for a local range. Always just went out into the hills on the old logging roads growing up. I was checking out some threads on rimfire rifles and I think I might pick up a Mark II to get started with. It's not the long ranger stuff I want to get into, but a good 22 that I can work with would be a good place to start learning the basics and see if this is something I want to get hardcore into.

 

[Victory]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

Aer454,

All the wiz bang rounds are good for the guys that have been shooting for years and have really mastered the art of reading the wind.

Until this skill is truly understood, I wouldn't waste my time on any round that I couldn't afford to shoot a lot of.

Also, if you spend the afternoon shooting and trying to rule out variables as to why you are not shooting as accurately as you would like, I wouldn't want to be shooting a high recoiling round. That is just another variable to figure out and master.

Cheers

 

[captnmo]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

Welcome Bill,
Check out this thread for those us in Western Washington.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=960995&nt=16&page=1

I'm just starting into this addiction and have started with .308 for long-range stuff. I got a Savage 10FCP in an HS Precision stock and it's a great rifle. They're said to be one of the best low-end, out of the box shooters out there. I also am happy with starting with the .308 because it's a very well-known round and readily available. But that's all I know, I'm not much farther along than you so I'm not going to try to give you any advice because it's probably all wrong.

I'm also just starting my reloading set. Just went to the store and they were asking for $41.00 for a box of 20 .308 in 168 grain...rediculous! So I don't think there's much of any round out there you're going to be able to buy cheap unless it's .22....by the way, shooting a heavy .22 is a good way to build your basic skills. Been doing that with my grandfather for years and I don't feel so awkward when I pick up the Savage.

Anyway, welcome! A great bunch of guys here. A lot of knowledge and a lot of B.S. All of it's fun though.

 

[Aer454]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

Haha, thanks for the welcome and the link! I've always wanted a new .22, never really cared for my old marlin. Cost isn't really a concern, though the point still stands. The driving difference between a lamborgini diablo and a volvo is night and day. But to a 10 year old kid that doesn't know how to drive, the difference isn't even noticed. With that, spending $41 bucks for a 20 box for 5,000 rounds to learn to shoot doesn't make a lot of sense either.

I'm pretty fond of the Remy 700's, I think I'm gonna pick one up in .308 sometime soon.

 

[PeteCamp]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

Welcome Bill...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With that, spending $41 bucks for a 20 box for 5,000 rounds to learn to shoot doesn't make a lot of sense either. </div></div>

I just checked Midway and prices for 300 WBY range from $40/20 at the bottom to $90/20 plus at the other end. Real expensive afternoon. There won't be many of them either. You'll be changing barrels pretty quick.

I would second all that's been said here. A good, 22LR outfitted to mimic a bigger long range rifle is a great way to learn. The Savage MKII BV is a good one. Even better is the CZ 452 for a bit more money. Another excellent value, though little known, is the Winchester Wildcat Varmit barrel model. It is really a Russian Toz 78 rifle and very accurate. Can be found for around $250 retail. Anyway, you can shoot these at 100-200 yards and gain a tremendous education in long range shooting that applies directly to larger calibers.

BTW I don't know about newer models, but neither one of the two Mini-14's I've owned would achieve 6" at 300 yards. YMMV

 

[Aer454]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

The 6" thought was just a guess. Main idea behind the mini would be a ranged plinker. I'll check out the CZ 452 you mentioned. Any suggestions on the next step up from the .22 after gaining some profeciency?

 

[PeteCamp]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

Well, the suggestions made here would be the basic next step up: .308 would be my suggestion. I have never really "stepped up" from the 22LR trainer - more like "stepped down". Ammo prices being what they are - and reloading is not exactly cheap either, I shoot more 22LR than anything nowadays. I have lots of rifles to shoot, but none that I can go out and shoot 200 rounds without major pocketbook damage.

There are really several paths you could choose. Learning and having fun doing it makes the 22 trainer concept worthwhile. I take the larger calibers out once in a while, but try to keep sharp for those days with the little one.

You can check out the CZ forum over on Rimfire Central and also on the Rimfire section here.

 

[captnmo]

Re: New to the forum & have a couple Q's.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aer454</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm pretty fond of the Remy 700's, I think I'm gonna pick one up in .308 sometime soon. </div></div>

There's nothing wrong with the Remy 700's. Obviously a hugely popular rifle and can be used in endless applications. Even the best military snipers rely on them. There are many pros and some cons. From my limited experience and mostly from what I've learned from research, is that a Savage is probably the better out-of-the-box shooter. But Savage has their weaknesses too.

You'll also have to evaluate just how much time and money you plan on spending modifying your rifle, if any at all. Just be sure to do a lot of reading. Good luck!