New to the forum, making a transition in reloading

[Western Living]

I'm new to the forum and I decided to start some conversations here because threads from this forum would often come up in search results when I was looking for knowledge.

I have been reloading on a progressive press for the last couple years. I had gone that path because I was reloading a higher volume of mostly handgun ammo. As I progressed, my revolver was showing signs of higher precision than I expected. I became OC in the details of reloading for it. Then both my sons pulled Mule Deer tags this year. That made me get into reloading a bottle-neck rifle cartridge. I am reloading that on the progressive press too, but I am looking at transitioning to a single stage press and I have questions about equipment and procedures.

I bought the deer rifle a couple years ago, but none of us won tags until this season. It's a bolt-action chambered for 6.5 Grendel. When I started reloading for it, I bought a Redding Type S Bushing Neck die, with the Redding Body die and Redding seater. The brass expands in the chamber to an OD of .300. That's the SAAMI spec. I have only Starline brass. I was using a bushing to squeeze it down in one step, and I was getting inconsistent diameters. Redding reports, "...a given neck sizing bushing will produce a case neck diameter that can be several thousandths of an inch smaller than the actual diameter of the bushing. This idiosyncrasy occurs when the neck diameter of the fired case is a great deal larger than the diameter of the neck sizing bushing, such as occurs when factory chambers are on the large side of the tolerance range and the brass is on the thin side. Typically, we have not noticed any problems until the case neck is reduced more than 0.008-0.010." Because I was trying to resize the neck 0.014", I was needing to use a bushing several thou larger and I would get inconsistent results. I bought a second bushing to do it in two-steps, but I guessed the size wrong and it doesn't give me enough neck tension. I also have some concerns about losing concentricity when resizing the neck so far without a mandrel on the ID. I bought a Lee Collet die and that's what I'm using on the necks for now.

What Concentricity Tool?
I need a concentricity gauge or tool. I just looked in my tool boxes and I don't even have a dial gauge. I found a couple odometers, but no dial gauge. I believe this is a necessity to check the concentricity of necks on cases and seated bullets on loaded cartridges. I'm leaning towards the Sinclair concentricity gauge. Is there a reason a different one is a better choice? I'm skeptical of the dial indicator they sell with it. Should I just get the fixture and buy a Starrett or Mitutoyo? Once I can measure this, I will see whether what I am doing on the necks is working, and whether the Redding seater is doing a satisfactory job or not.

Shoulder Bump Die or Not?
I have a bump gauge or comparator, but it turns out none of my dies move the shoulder. The LCD doesn't, and neither will the Type S Bushing Neck or Body-only die. Grendel is a low pressure cartridge (52,000psi) and it doesn't stretch or expand much even after several firings (so far there is no sign that I will ever need to trim). After 4 or 5 firings with neck-only sizing, I occasionally get a case that is harder to chamber and then I just run the cases through the body die. Will I ever need to move the shoulders? If I should resize the shoulder, which die should I use? Forster full-length and set it to bump 0.002"? I am sure this works well, but since I already have other good dies, I'm not just looking for a good way to do it, but for anything necessary that I'm neglecting and a solution to that. Erik Cortina thinks this is the biggest mistake in my current process. How do I not just fix it, but fix it in the best possible way?

 

[axarob44]

That body die you have will size the shoulder as well as the rest of the case, all but the neck. You're going to have to screw the body die down more on the shell holder. Screw it down to the shell holder,lower the ram and screw it down a bit at a time until it moves the shoulder the amount you want using the comparator to measure progress.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

axarob is right about shoulder bump with the body die.

Skip the concentricity tool. Most around here measure for a while, then stop when they conclude it doesnt have much impact on precision unless you're pretty far off.

I think most here full length resize. I also think you're using the wrong method to choose your bushing. You want to measure the OD of a loaded round, not a fired one. From there, subtract desired neck tension, and maybe a thou for brass springback, and that should be your bushing size. But I'm not a bushing guy, so someone with more experience can jump on that one, if you want to go to the full length bushing route.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Don’t even worry with the concentricity gauge. I haven’t met anyone who can show a difference on paper from no runout to a lot of runout. I see zero difference in my virgin necked down 6x47 that is .007 or more runout and my fired brass which loads at about .001 runout. It’s meaningless.

Either figure out the bushing size like the above poster suggests or go a little bit smaller and use a mandrel to expand back up to the desired tension. Using a mandrel will give you similar results as neck turning and many report switching to mandrels has made the most impact on their loading (the other being a scale like an fx120).

 

[Western Living]

When you write about expanding mandrels, are those Wilson? Sinclair? or the mandrel button that is pulled out of a case neck after the bushing die sizes it? Or the mandrel in a Lee collet die?

As for the bushing size, I'm a little confused why this isn't a more common problem. There is no question that Redding instructs to measure the loaded cartridge neck and select a bushing one or two thou smaller. That accounts for the brass thickness, some potential spring back, and should provide just the right amount of neck tension. But Redding also claims, "...a given neck sizing bushing will produce a case neck diameter that can be several thousandths of an inch smaller than the actual diameter of the bushing." Well, there goes their "method." It flat doesn't work. The brass comes out of their bushing several thousandths smaller than the bushing. So if I select a bushing one or two thousandths smaller than the loaded case, my brass comes out 4 or 5 thousandths smaller. Even Redding says it will. It's exactly what I see. If I use a .288" bushing, the neck OD comes out .284".

Now Redding says this will happen if the brass is sized too far in one step. That also agrees with my experience. If I size with a .290" bushing, it comes out .288". If I then size with a .288" bushing, it does not get any smaller. It's only when I size from .300" in one step that I see this "idiosyncrasy" that Redding advises to expect when brass is sized more than .008 or 0.010". But the chamber spec for most 6.5mm cartridges are pretty close to .300". My Grendel is a straight .300". Swede tapers from .2992 to .2965. Creedmoor tapers from .297 to .296". So even the tightest dimension on the Creedmoor is going to get necked-down ten thou unless the brass is exceptionally thick or the chamber was made with a custom reamer. Ok, so the Grendel chamber is on the loose side compared to 6.5x47 which is about 5 thou tighter, but my Starline brass isn't the thinnest.

So is the solution to find a bushing that will get my right where I want to be in one step, or just accept that I need size the necks in two steps? What I've read from others is that concentricity will suffer if sizing that far with a single bushing in one-step. If concentricity doesn't matter, maybe this doesn't either.

 

[spife7980]

When you write about expanding mandrels, are those Wilson? Sinclair? or the mandrel button that is pulled out of a case neck after the bushing die sizes it? Or the mandrel in a Lee collet die?

When people mention mandrels they are talking about a separate mandrel. They remove the expander ball on the thing rod from inside the die and then in a new die and a second step they use the expander mandrel and die body. Forcing brass up around the solid mandrel provides for better results than pulling a ball through the neck and stretching the cases.

Sinclair, PMA and 21st century all have die bodies and mandrels that are interchangeable with one another.



SO yeah, bushings can give different outcomes, that depends on your brass condition and how easily it accepts the new dimensions more so than the bushing label. It usually wont be multiple thousandths off. My .289 bushing give me a .290 neck in reality. What you need to decide is if you want to use the bushing only or if you want to expand as well. If you want to expand then you need to get a bushing a couple thou smaller so that the mandrel actually has brass small enough to touch in a meaningful way. If the bushing closes it down to a diameter thats larger than the mandrel then the mandrel obviously wont do anything as its floating freely in space.

 

[Western Living]

So the Lee Collet Die has a pushed expander mandrel like that (as opposed to the pulled ball/button). The difference is Lee only offers one size mandrel and the die also has the collet fingers which could be removed. The collet itself is kind of like an OD bushing, but it's spring-loaded against the mandrel and it has a few gaps. Lee advises turning the case on the shellholder and pushing it up into the collet a second time presumably to improve the roundness of the result which might otherwise look a little like the four lobes of the collet.

I might be overthinking this, but at some point I'll be buying dies for another cartridge and I'd like to have a good idea of what to get and what to skip so I don't have to buy more than I need again. I've been reading another recent thread where there was a request for what dies to buy for a 6.5 Creedmoor. There's advice in there, but I found that some of recommendations aren't made for other cartridges. I have another older rifle here that they don't even make a Lee Collet die for. Forster also tends to focus mostly on what's popular. Redding does make bushing dies for many cartridges, and of course the expanding mandrels aren't cartridge-specific.

 

[Western Living]

That body die you have will size the shoulder as well as the rest of the case, all but the neck. You're going to have to screw the body die down more on the shell holder. Screw it down to the shell holder,lower the ram and screw it down a bit at a time until it moves the shoulder the amount you want using the comparator to measure progress.

I've screwed it all the way down to the shellplate. The shellplate is not thick. The comparator still shows no bump. The only explanation I can think of is that the cases are not expanding enough to take or need a bump. I didn't notice hard chambering until about 5 firings. That was before I had the comparator so I couldn't measure them then. Since they've been body-sized, I might have to fire them several times again before the body die will bump it again.

I need to take the firing pin out of the bolt and check how the once-fired brass is chambering. I don't have the rifle at the moment, but I should be able to check it in about a week.

The people who say they always bump it back 2 thou -- I wonder if they bump it back from the once-fired shoulder dimension, or from the dimension of brass fully expanded against the chamber shoulder. It seems to me if they bump once-fired brass, that may not be necessary. If they only bump it back from the chamber shoulder, then maybe they're not really bumping it at all until it's been fired a few times.

 

[spife7980]

So the Lee Collet Die has a pushed expander mandrel like that (as opposed to the pulled ball/button). The difference is Lee only offers one size mandrel and the die also has the collet fingers which could be removed. The collet itself is kind of like an OD bushing, but it's spring-loaded against the mandrel and it has a few gaps. Lee advises turning the case on the shellholder and pushing it up into the collet a second time presumably to improve the roundness of the result which might otherwise look a little like the four lobes of the collet.

I might be overthinking this, but at some point I'll be buying dies for another cartridge and I'd like to have a good idea of what to get and what to skip so I don't have to buy more than I need again. I've been reading another recent thread where there was a request for what dies to buy for a 6.5 Creedmoor. There's advice in there, but I found that some of recommendations aren't made for other cartridges. I have another older rifle here that they don't even make a Lee Collet die for. Forster also tends to focus mostly on what's popular. Redding does make bushing dies for many cartridges, and of course the expanding mandrels aren't cartridge-specific.

The collet die is a different thing altogether but people report great results because just like with the separate mandrel because you arent tugging on the pliable brass, it has more compressive strength than tensile. But the mandrel and lee die both are only part of the neck sizing operation, it leaves the whole shoulder and body untouched still.

Youll find what works for you quickly enough, I wouldnt sweat any of the choices.

 

[axarob44]

Once you hit the shell plate, drop the ram/shell plate and screw the die in more until you get shoulder bump. A little bit at a time. Measure as you screw in more. You're just not getting the case in far enough to push the shoulder back.

 

[acudaowner]

if it works for you who cares what anyone else thinks about it . Personally I wanna use my progressive to do almost everything faster and finish my loads on my single stage for that more precise finish . Only I will know if I am successful or not . and the only person whom I need to make happy with my reloads is me . my 2 cents worth about that of a plugged nickel best of luck to you with your efforts you can do it .