newbie needs .223 help

jLorenzo

jLorenzo

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Minuteman
Feb 20, 2017
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#1
Just started reloading. Hornady classic press, have a 18" AR .223 wylde chamber. I was using some LC 223 brass from some remanufactured black hills with 77s, I succesfully loaded .308 using once fired Federal brass from gmmm. The bullets (Hornady 75 bthp) wouldnt seat in the neck, I would slowly adjust the die but most didnt seat, some did. I ended up smooshing a few of pieces of brass trying to get the neck tension needed. Is there a difference in 223 and 556 brass? Like dont load 223 brass using 556 powder charges? Is it my .223 wylde chamber causing the 223 brass to grow and not seat the bullet tightly? Was using 23gr of Varget just to start. A grain under hornadys max 223 load but it was under the service rifle 223 section in the Hornady book. I was using RCBS 308 dies and a new set of Hornady dies for 223. I also over lubed the 308 sizing die and got a case stuck in the die, any way to get it out?
Thanks im just starting out with all this.
 
#2
Check this out for removing your stuck case: https://rifleshooter.com/2015/09/how-to-remove-a-stuck-case-from-a-sizing-die/. BTW sticking comes from under-lubing not over-lubing. You can also use washers as a replacement for the bushing in a do it yourself fashion rather than buying a kit.

In regards to your 223 issue, it sounds like you may have purchased bushing dies, if so you need to buy a bushing in order to size the neck down from the fired dimension.
 
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#5
About 12 different question in no particular order, fun.

“Smooshing a few pieces of brass”... when you tried to seat there was so much tension that instead of opening wider and letting the bullet slide in the whole neck pushed in making an accordion out of the shoulders? Clarify what’s actually happening.

The different chambers (neck diameter and freebore) has no bearing on the bullet seating into the neck of a sized case.

What is the outside diameter of your loaded necks? And what is the diameter of the empty sized brass? And how are you adjusting a die during seating and altering neck tension? If your die body is too low you could be crimping the case closed before the bullet seats I guess. Adjust it like the instructions that came with it say to.


23 grains shouldn’t be too much unless you have other issues but that wouldn’t really show up in the seating operation.

Over lubing didn’t get your die suddenly under lubed and stuck. They make extraction kits.

I’m any case. Measure the case head diameter, shoulder diameter, neck diameter, shoulder to face length and overall length for fired, sized and seated. That’s the answer to figuring out where it’s fucked up.
I make a chart like this, fired>sized(>expanded for the neck)
29AC13CA-7C20-471E-8CD7-FF94D8D6D0D7.jpeg
 
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#6
I will do what Spife says. I only adjusted the die after the bullets either stayed in the die or just sat in the neck having not been seated after coming out of the die. One setting on the die would seat a bullet fine then the next one I would have problems and have to adjust.

The stuck case happened after I sprayed one shot up inside the die. Guessing too much lube caused a vaccum.

This is what happened after slowly making small adjustments after either bullet staying in die or case coming back out of die with bullet loosely sitting in the neck.
2018-09-17 19.45.48.jpg
2018-09-17 19.46.45.jpg
 
#7
One piece was 1.7630 which is over max case length
Outside neck diameter of loaded case .2575
I do need to read the instructions that came with the Hornady dies. Got the RCBS used and had no problems other than the stuck case.
 
#8
When you say the outside diameter of a loaded case was .2575, is that of one of the rounds in the pictures that is basically held due to the crimping action of the die? That would indicate your case neck thickness is about .1722, which is thicker than my LC brass. What is the outside dimension of a resized case? What is the dimension of a fired but unsized case neck? How thick are your case neck walls?

Until you check the dies, I'm still guessing you have bushing style dies and the necks did not get sized during the resizing process as you did not have a bushing in it.

On seating, it looks like you kept screwing the seating die body down until the bullet held, which is likely due only to the crimping action of the die at the bullet/mouth junction as evidenced in your photos. It looks like you screwed the die in so far that the shoulder of the die body buckled the case shoulder.

Take 5, check your dies, and read the instructions on both the resizing and seating dies.
 
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#9
Campguy308 said:
Explain what you mean by not seating. If you squished some cases, your seating die isn't adjusted right
Click to expand...
Agreed. If you are properly sizing your cases then "squishing" them when seating the bullet then your seating die is not set up correctly. Re-read and follow the instructions that came with your die set.
 
#10
remaction said:
When you say the outside diameter of a loaded case was .2575, is that of one of the rounds in the pictures that is basically held due to the crimping action of the die? That would indicate your case neck thickness is about .1722, which is thicker than my LC brass. What is the outside dimension of a resized case? What is the dimension of a fired but unsized case neck? How thick are your case neck walls?

Until you check the dies, I'm still guessing you have bushing style dies and the necks did not get sized during the resizing process as you did not have a bushing in it.

On seating, it looks like you kept screwing the seating die body down until the bullet held, which is likely due only to the crimping action of the die at the bullet/mouth junction as evidenced in your photos. It looks like you screwed the die in so far that the shoulder of the die body buckled the case shoulder.

Take 5, check your dies, and read the instructions on both the resizing and seating dies.
Click to expand...
That is one of the pictured rounds at .2575
 
#11
And the O.D. of an unfired and un-resized brass?
Did you check your resizing die to see if it is a bushing die?
If you take the time to answer all of the questions we can get to the bottom of things quicker. Help us help you.
I'm guessing the neck, except for the crimped area, may not be touching the bullet.
Here are some various chamber specs for 223 Wylde chambers (none of them are as large as .2575 so it's doubtful the neck is being resized):
REAMER6.png
 
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#12
remaction said:
When you say the outside diameter of a loaded case was .2575, is that of one of the rounds in the pictures that is basically held due to the crimping action of the die? That would indicate your case neck thickness is about .1722, which is thicker than my LC brass. What is the outside dimension of a resized case? What is the dimension of a fired but unsized case neck? How thick are your case neck walls?

Until you check the dies, I'm still guessing you have bushing style dies and the necks did not get sized during the resizing process as you did not have a bushing in it.

On seating, it looks like you kept screwing the seating die body down until the bullet held, which is likely due only to the crimping action of the die at the bullet/mouth junction as evidenced in your photos. It looks like you screwed the die in so far that the shoulder of the die body buckled the case shoulder.

Take 5, check your dies, and read the instructions on both the resizing and seating dies.
Click to expand...
Im not at home right now but does this mean I will need to buy a bushing? The hornady die I bought had a floating "bushing" inside.
 
#13
jLorenzo said:
Im not at home right now but does this mean I will need to buy a bushing? The hornady die I bought had a floating "bushing" inside.
Click to expand...
Yes, the bushing die needs a bushing in it.
They dont come from the factory with a bushing as they have no idea what diameter bushing you would want.
What diameter does your bushing say on it since you say it came with one (though in the first post you said it was new: so it wouldnt have one in it)? Should be stamped on it.
iipsrv__98760.1502922107.400.559.jpg




Still. Take all of the proper measurements (case head diameter, shoulder diameter, neck diameter, shoulder length, for both new, fired, sized) and relay them. Also, tell us exactly what you have. These details are important. I assumed you had a hornady custom series, turns out you have the match dies. Thats a big detail.
 
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#14
Ill have to check when I get home. The thing inside the die is sort of shaped like a bullet. It was a brand new .223 Hornady die set.

spife7980 said:
Yes, the bushing die needs a bushing in it.
They dont come from the factory with a bushing as they have no idea what diameter bushing you would want.
What diameter does your bushing say on it since you say it came with one (though in the first post you said it was new: so it wouldnt have one in it)? Should be stamped on it.
iipsrv__98760.1502922107.400.559.jpg
Click to expand...
 
#16
Need to get a stuck case removal kit, some lock n load bushings and the die bushing today.
Would it be safe to fire the rounds I loaded or no? If so can I pull the bullets somehow and reuse the primed brass and maybe the bullets?
 
#17
jLorenzo said:
Ill have to check when I get home. The thing inside the die is sort of shaped like a bullet. It was a brand new .223 Hornady die set.
Click to expand...
Is this what youre talking about?
hornady-223-expander.jpg

If so thats not a bushing. Its the opposite of a bushing, its the expander. A bushing makes the case mouth smaller. That expander makes them larger, it should measure ~.222" in diameter. After the case is sized down by a bushing that expander is dragged back out through the case mouth opening it up to the proper dimension.
 
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#18
jLorenzo said:
Need to get a stuck case removal kit, some lock n load bushings and the die bushing today.
Would it be safe to fire the rounds I loaded or no? If so can I pull the bullets somehow and reuse the primed brass and maybe the bullets?
Click to expand...
If you have a match series die and have no bushing in it I have no idea how you got the case sized to hold the bullet to start with much less whether its safe to shoot or not. Im going to say no to be on the safe side based on whats been communicated thus far.

If you have any unfired ammo measure the neck diameter and get a bushing that is .004 under that. Dragging the above mention expander through the necks will open them back up but the bushing first needs to size it down for anything to work.

A bullet is .224 plus the thickness of your case necks x2 (to account for each side) will help figure out what bushing you need. Subtract .004 from the loaded diameter to figure out your proper bushing.

For brass that has a neck .011 thick
.224+.011+.011=.246-.004=.242 bushing

For .012 thick necks
.224+.012+.012=.248-.004=.244" bushing

For .013 necks
.224+.013+.013=.250-.004=.246 bushing.

Above you said your loaded diameter is .257
.257-.224=.033/2=.0165" for brass thickness and thats really thick. I have my doubts that its actually that thick as the measurment is greater than the chamber should physically allow the brass to grow.
 
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#19
Follow Spife's advice. The only thing I can add is that you should NOT measure one of your improperly resized and loaded rounds to obtain the neck diameter of a loaded round, as based on your previous measurement of .2575 you will not get an accurate measurement. If you do not have any of the Black Hills ammo left that you could measure (that you indicated the brass is from) then I would suggest measuring the neck wall thickness of several fired cases and let us know what they are. My LC brass has neck walls in the .011-.015 range and loaded rounds are .246-.247.
 
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#20
.242 is the safe option then if you can’t measure an unfired round based on remactions lc brass data.
That will guarantee that the brass is getting sized properly and even in the worst case the bushing would still be saving you the additional brass work of a traditional full length die so... yay.
 
#21
Im going to take some measurements of Hornady Black 75gr because it shoots great out of my gun, yes that is the part im talking about. Odd the full die set wouldnt come with a necessary part to complete reloading. I didnt have to buy any bushings with the RCBS 308 dies I have.
The head is begining to ache already, gonna take a day and come back to the 223. Have been succesfully cranking out some .308 though.
 
#22
jLorenzo said:
Im going to take some measurements of Hornady Black 75gr because it shoots great out of my gun, yes that is the part im talking about. Odd the full die set wouldnt come with a necessary part to complete reloading. I didnt have to buy any bushings with the RCBS 308 dies I have.
The head is begining to ache already, gonna take a day and come back to the 223. Have been succesfully cranking out some .308 though.
Click to expand...

The .308 dies must not be bushing style dies. Standard dies, like your 308 dies, rely on the expander mandrel to bring the case neck up to the correct size for holding the bullet after the sizing process. The die itself undersizes the neck and the expander brings it back up to the correct size for seating.

Bushing dies allow better control of the neck sizing, such that if done correctly, you only resize the neck just enough to hold the bullet at whatever tension you desire (based on the bushing size you buy). In this manner. the brass does not get worked as much and therefore does not become hardened as fast as with standard dies. That is why the bushings do not come with the die, you must determine the bushing size based on your loaded round dimension minus the amount of tension you want on the bullet from the necks. The loaded round dimension is determined by your bullet and your neck wall thickness. The mfg has no idea what your neck wall thicknesses are, not do they know what amount of tension you want.

Hang in there, things will improve greatly once you install the bushing!
 
#25
Still having issues getting bullets seated. Ill get the die set 6 or 7 will come out perfect then one that just sits in the neck or stays up in the die until i run the press with increased pressure. Had 2 bullets come out while shooting my AR, nothing lodged in the barrel but power everywhere. :(
 
#26
You have to provide sufficient info for anyone to be of help.
Are you using the same mfg. and lot of brass for all loads (curious if you have neck thickness variances from case to case)?
Measurements and info needed, to the thousandth: (not all are needed but it helps us fill in the blanks):
1) Neck dia. of loaded Black Hills round from which the cases are later used for your reloading
2) Neck dia. of fired round before resizing
3) Neck dia. after sizing
4) Neck dia. after seating the bullet
5) What bushing size are you using?

If you don't want to put the effort into providing and understanding the need to understand these dimensions, then I would suggest just getting a standard sizing die for your initial foray into reloading as that should size the necks down and then back up to adequate dimensions to hold your bullets.
 
#27
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any mention of you trimming your cases. LC cases are long, they will need to be trimmed. Nothing will work, and could be dangerous until all your cases are trimmed to a safe length.
 
#29
I am now champhering and deburrind mouth inside and out as well as reaming and cleaning the primer pocket. Wasnt before. Used Hornady brass, 23gr of varget and hornady 75 bthp with cci br4s. Everything went perfect, brass is shy of max case length and coal is a little under 2.25
 
#30
But I had the sizing die up way too high wasnt lubing enough. Just wasnt setup right figured it out watching hornadys youtube video on setting up match grade sizing die.
 
#31
If your brass is still measuring long, which you stated is 1.763, you’re bound to have a kaboomie sooner or later. Make sure to address that before you proceed for the sake of personal safety and others around you
 
#34
jLorenzo said:
The stuff I load was well under max case length and case trim length according to hornadys book. What happens if they het too long?
Click to expand...
The max length for 223 / 5.56 case is 1.760", trim length is 1.750".

If the cases get too long, then they protrude into the space where the bullet meets the lead. That effectively puts a taper crimp on the bullet, the brass can't expand and release the bullet upon firing. Pressures spike, primers pop, case heads separate and other bad things can happen.
 
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#35
Skookum said:
The max length for 223 / 5.56 case is 1.760", trim length is 1.750".

If the cases get too long, then they protrude into the space where the bullet meets the lead. That effectively puts a taper crimp on the bullet, the brass can't expand and release the bullet upon firing. Pressures spike, primers pop, case heads separate and other bad things can happen.
Click to expand...
Good to know, I didnt shoot ery many of the first with the LC brass. Last batch was hornady and was under those number. These all funtioned ok not the best grouping.heres 15 at 100 with the new loads correctly sized and everything. Not super impressed gonna do some fine tuning with the power. Second pic is first time shooting that load. 23gr varget, once fired Hornady, cci br4.
20181006_184316.jpg
20181006_184311.jpg
20181006_184316.jpg
 
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