Newbie questions: short brass length and die issues

[Snuby642]

That puts it at 0.045 thousands under trim lenght.

It will never get back to trim lenght.

I'm thinking the brass is toast by now.

The only brass I have had a die ruin was with Hornady dies, twice and that wont happen again. That is not to say I have not made a mess or two due to my own setting mistake not of the products fault.

Ioosing 0.055 thousands worth of brass from new is a pile of brass shavings or mushed into?

Maybe you could get some crappy range brass to work with till you sort this out.

 

[Islas82]

what's scary there aint nothing in it? the right way to do it would be to take ejector and firing pin out of bolt and that piece of brass should just go in and bolt drop with no resistance.

Just that something might be wrong with my chamber is the scary part lol. Well it chambered perfectly and there’s no damage to the brass. Even though I didn’t remove the ejector and pin I didn’t feel any unusual resistance or rubbing.

 

[Islas82]

That puts it at 0.045 thousands under trim lenght.

It will never get back to trim lenght.

I'm thinking the brass is toast by now.

The only brass I have had a die ruin was with Hornady dies, twice and that wont happen again. That is not to say I have not made a mess or two due to my own setting mistake not of the products fault.

Ioosing 0.055 thousands worth of brass from new is a pile of brass shavings or mushed into?

Maybe you could get some crappy range brass to work with till you sort this out.

I got some Hornady brass laying around. Smh

 

[Mudflap621]

Just that something might be wrong with my chamber is the scary part lol. Well it chambered perfectly and there’s no damage to the brass. Even though I didn’t remove the ejector and pin I didn’t feel any unusual resistance or rubbing.

can you post up a picture of that chambered piece of brass. what's the length on it?

 

[Snuby642]

Does anyone have an unfired factory round that shoulder and case lenght could be had from?

Typically they are shorter than every chamber out there but a " baseline " comparison.

 

[Islas82]

can you post up a picture of that chambered piece of brass. what's the length on it?

This is what it measured after sizing and mandrel. Second pic is after chambering. It’s already a bit shorter after sizing not sure if that’s normal. Shoulder was not bumped

 

[Islas82]

A member is sending me a whidden die to test out and see if the die is the definite issue. I will post results once I get it and size brass with it. If anyone has any other ideas please share. Thanks for all your help on this!

 

[Mudflap621]

This is what it measured after sizing and mandrel. Second pic is after chambering. It’s already a bit shorter after sizing not sure if that’s normal. Shoulder was not bumped

Thanks for the pictures now Im a little stumped as well. This piece looks good. IS the measurement the same now after chambering it as what you have pictured there?

 

[Mudflap621]

A member is sending me a whidden die to test out and see if the die is the definite issue. I will post results once I get it and size brass with it. If anyone has any other ideas please share. Thanks for all your help on this!

Sweet good dude to lend you one! From the looks of the brass you just ran through your sizing die im not thinking its the sizing die but something else we are missing in the process. Keep us posted!

 

[Snuby642]

Well it doesn't get better than that for help.

I bet it is a die that missed a step in machining, happens these days.

 

[ma smith]

Interesting...If all else fails, i wonder if you try the sharpie trick, if you can replicate those brass shavings, see if/where its scraping the sharpie off??

 

[nn8734]

I also think it’s the die. Cant say 100% without hands on but sure seems like it.

Forster will fix or replace it

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I'll bet the cost equivalent of the die that the cause of this is shit machining in that die. There's nothing else it can be.

 

[Mudflap621]

I'll bet the cost equivalent of the die that the cause of this is shit machining in that die. There's nothing else it can be.

How come that last piece came out looking fine? It looks nothing like that first picture of brass in opening post. I hope its the sizing die too as its easy fix and shows that its not something else in his process but If it was the sizing die I would expect that last piece of brass he sized to look similar to the first. I have a feeling we are missing something or something has been changed. Could he possibly have accidentally smushed some brass in initial die setup a causing them to peen the mouth and it just wasn't noticed? Looking forward to an update.

EDIT: still interested in knowing if the length changed on the new brass after chambering.

 

[Islas82]

I'll bet the cost equivalent of the die that the cause of this is shit machining in that die. There's nothing else it can be.

How come that last piece came out looking excellent? It looks nothing like that first picture of brass in opening post. I hope its the sizing die too as its easy fix and shows that its not something else in his process but If it was the sizing die I would expect that last piece of brass he sized to look similar to the first. I have a feeling we are missing something or something has been changed. Could he possibly have accidentally smushed some brass in initial die setup a causing them to peen the mouth and it just wasn't noticed? Looking forward to an update.

I can see myself smushing 1 or 2 pieces but not 50. I think the piece of brass looks good because I ran it through the mandrel a fire sizing. There’s a picture before that and you can see the flare although I agree with you not as much as the others, but remember this was a new piece and the others were 6x

 

[nn8734]

How come that last piece came out looking fine? It looks nothing like that first picture of brass in opening post. I hope its the sizing die too as its easy fix and shows that its not something else in his process but If it was the sizing die I would expect that last piece of brass he sized to look similar to the first. I have a feeling we are missing something or something has been changed. Could he possibly have accidentally smushed some brass in initial die setup a causing them to peen the mouth and it just wasn't noticed? Looking forward to an update.

It’s not his process; our questions and his answers lead me to believe he knows how to set up a die. Plus that die seems to be skinning his necks and making what looks like a “ledge” at the junction between neck and shoulder

 

[Islas82]

It’s not his process; our questions and his answers lead me to believe he knows how to set up a die. Plus that die seems to be skinning his necks and making what looks like a “ledge” at the junction between neck and shoulder

It does those same markings below the shoulder and close to the base, middle of the case comes out looking clean.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

How come that last piece came out looking fine? It looks nothing like that first picture of brass in opening post. I hope its the sizing die too as its easy fix and shows that its not something else in his process but If it was the sizing die I would expect that last piece of brass he sized to look similar to the first. I have a feeling we are missing something or something has been changed. Could he possibly have accidentally smushed some brass in initial die setup a causing them to peen the mouth and it just wasn't noticed? Looking forward to an update.

EDIT: still interested in knowing if the length changed on the new brass after chambering.

My assumption would be, if he shot and repeated this process 5 more times, we would see the same thing as the other brass.

 

[Mudflap621]

I can see myself smushing 1 or 2 pieces but not 50. I think the piece of brass looks good because I ran it through the mandrel a fire sizing. There’s a picture before that and you can see the flare although I agree with you not as much as the others, but remember this was a new piece and the others were 6x

the mandrel before sizing shouldn't of made a difference IMO I just wanted to make sure you weren't bottoming it out on accident. I have done it myself. Hopefully the new dies is the ticket. Any change in the length of the last piece of brass after you chambered it?

 

[Islas82]

the mandrel before sizing shouldn't of made a difference IMO I just wanted to make sure you weren't bottoming it out on accident. I have done it myself. Hopefully the new dies is the ticket. Any change in the length of the last piece of brass after you chambered it?

Yea It has happened to me too. So here’s what am thinking am gonna just throw these 50 pieces away and cut my loses, thankfully 6 cm brass is not as hard to find. Am gonna load the remaining new 50 pieces and shoot them next week, hopefully by then die is here and I can start the process all over again, I won’t change or adjust a thing so I can definitely know if the die was the issue. If it was the die I will reach out to Forster and they can figure it out. Again, thank you everyone for your help and specially thanks to Gwain for offering the whidden die. I’ll keep you all posted.

 

[spife7980]

We’re on page 2 already… let’s get some actual measurements.

This is using my unhoned forster die as well

 

[ma smith]

View attachment 7779582We’re on page 2 already… let’s get some actual measurements.

This is using my unhoned forster die as well

.260 after the sizer from .275? .15 thou seems like a lot of sizing/working the brass.

 

[whatsupdoc]

That just does not seem possible, in order for the case neck end to be flared the end has to be expanded with
a object larger than the die neck diameter. How is the "hole" in the die flaring the end?

OP you have a borescope?


Edit: also on a Forster FL non bushing die the decapper assembly can not make contact with the
case neck its just too short.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Definately something wrong with your sizing.

Is that a crease at the shoulder? It looks like its pushing the whole neck down and deforming the shoulder. Sorta like if you were trying to size 6.5 brass in a 6 die.

NEW:

 

[spife7980]

.260 after the sizer from .275? .15 thou seems like a lot of sizing/working the brass.

Yeah it is but this isn’t about my dimensions. Let’s see what the OPs are.

 

[Mudflap621]

Definately something wrong with your sizing.

Is that a crease at the shoulder? It looks like its pushing the whole neck down and deforming the shoulder. Sorta like if you were trying to size 6.5 brass in a 6 die.

View attachment 7779596

NEW:
View attachment 7779595

wow the picture sure looks worse when its blown up. I agree that's jacked. Could he be just way oversizing it and also makes sense with his measurements being so short?

 

[spife7980]

That just does not seem possible, in order for the case neck end to be flared the end has to be expanded with
a object larger than the die neck diameter. How is the "hole" in the die flaring the end?

OP you have a borescope?


Edit: also on a Forster FL non bushing die the decapper assembly can not make contact with the
case neck its just too short.

If it starts really large I can see the case mouth where there is less material support springing back against the sizing die a noticeable amount. It’s not the first time people have encountered it. Usually a good anneal and resize fixes it but without numbers it’s just a guess.

 

[Islas82]

That just does not seem possible, in order for the case neck end to be flared the end has to be expanded with
a object larger than the die neck diameter. How is the "hole" in the die flaring the end?

OP you have a borescope?


Edit: also on a Forster FL non bushing die the decapper assembly can not make contact with the
case neck its just too short.

I do not have a bore scope.

 

[Islas82]

Definately something wrong with your sizing.

Is that a crease at the shoulder? It looks like its pushing the whole neck down and deforming the shoulder. Sorta like if you were trying to size 6.5 brass in a 6 die.

View attachment 7779596

NEW:
View attachment 7779595

Agree that’s why I think the neck on the sizing die might be out off spec and it’s smaller than it should, that’s why it’s shorting it and taking material off. Even lubed up it’s still a tight squeeze.

 

[Islas82]

wow the picture sure looks worse when its blown up. I agree that's jacked. Could he be just way oversizing it and also makes sense with his measurements being so short?

Just to point out that picture was of a new never fired case that was sized on the die in question.

 

[n2ishun]

The neck sizing area in the die does not seem to be profiled after initial machining is my guess.
It should not have a sharp lip inside the die but should be slightly beveled or rounded at the entrance to the neck area.
I'd wager heavy that they missed the profiling step when they made that die.
I would not trust those cases with the sharpened edges at the neck/shoulder junction......I'm thinking they might just come apart there when fired.
The line (arrowed to) should not be that sharp even if not using the die and press correctly.
There should be a slight rounding inside the die there to allow cases to enter easier and to match the shoulder/neck angle.
I blew this up so it's easier to see.

 

[Islas82]

The neck sizing area in the die does not seem to be profiled after initial machining is my guess.
It should not have a sharp lip inside the die but should be slightly beveled or rounded at the entrance to the neck area.
I'd wager heavy that they missed the profiling step when they made that die.
I would not trust those cases with the sharpened edges at the neck/shoulder junction......I'm thinking they might just come apart there when

My thoughts exactly, the die is literally shaving brass off the neck and possibly pushing the neck down by force. Should have whidden die on Tuesday and hopefully that answers some questions.

 

[Islas82]

Ok, went to the range today and shot 50 rounds on virgin lapua brass. Got home and started my process same as always, only thing that changed was the sizing die instead of the Forster I used a whidden die that a member sent me. I’ll say this, the whidden die is 100 times smoother than the Forster from the start, zero brass shavings as it should be and no tight fit. At this point am 99.95% sure my issue was a die that wasn’t up to spec. Now this is brand new brass so I’ll do a couple more firings just to be sure before I contact forester. I have attached some pictures, the first 2 are fired brass measurements before sizing and the last 3 are after sizing and running through a mandrel, you can see the difference on the condition of the brass no markings at all and case mouths and necks are perfect. I also chambered the brass to be sure.

 

[John Glidewell]

Glad that worked out. Will be interesting to see progress.

 

[Islas82]

Glad that worked out. Will be interesting to see progress.

Yea me too thank you for sending the die to test.

 

[John Glidewell]

Yea me too thank you for sending the die to test.

You're very welcome. Now pass it on, when you can, how you can.

 

[Barelstroker]

Ok here it goes. So I ran a brand new piece of brass through the decaper and mandrel (first pic) then I ran the same piece of brass through the sizing die with top removed (pic 2) and I just ran the “sized” brass through the mandrel again (pic 3). After I ran it through the mandrel the second time it actually looks better that’s the 3rd picture. Look closely at the bottom of the neck on the second picture, you guys see that line? Is that normal?

When viewing that 2nd pic & the line at the neck/shoulder junction, it looks to me as though the neck has been shoved down into the shoulder by the die. So I imagine the neck is too long & bottoming out. If you look real closely, the shoulder seems a tad wonky as well from the top of the shoulder being pushed down by the neck & deforming the shoulder further down as the top of the shoulder gives way.
Either the neck is too long or, the neck is being sized way too small causing the top of the shoulder to be reduced leaving that shelf we see at the junction.

 

[Islas82]

When viewing that 2nd pic & the line at the neck/shoulder junction, it looks to me as though the neck has been shoved down into the shoulder by the die. So I imagine the neck is too long & bottoming out. If you look real closely, the shoulder seems a tad wonky as well from the top of the shoulder being pushed down by the neck & deforming the shoulder further down as the top of the shoulder gives way.
Either the neck is too long or, the neck is being sized way too small causing the top of the shoulder to be reduced leaving that shelf we see at the junction.

The was being sized small and pushing the neck down. The die I was using is out of spec, I have since started using a different die and there’s a noticeable difference in the whole process.

 

[Islas82]

Sent die to Forster to check out, see what they say. Will keep you posted.

 

[Islas82]

Ok so just spoke to Vince down at Forster and he said that after inspecting the die I turns out neck was under sized. He said the topically have those necks at .265 and the on on the die was at .260 and therefore causing all that damage and pushing the neck down. We did some measurements and they will fix the die and customize it to the measurements in one of my loaded rounds. So I guess I wasn’t that crazy after all lol. Should get die back in a couple weeks.

 

[Barelstroker]

Ok so just spoke to Vince down at Forster and he said that after inspecting the die I turns out neck was under sized. He said the topically have those necks at .265 and the on on the die was at .260 and therefore causing all that damage and pushing the neck down. We did some measurements and they will fix the die and customize it to the measurements in one of my loaded rounds. So I guess I wasn’t that crazy after all lol. Should get die back in a couple weeks.

Good to see a resolution.