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Range Report Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

RSWORDS

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Full Member
Minuteman
May 15, 2011
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How it going guys, The wife bought me a Rem 700 Varmint BDL back in September for my birthday and while I've shot rifles my whole life its always been for hunting in the 100-200 yard range. I've been working on the rifle and while its a budget build with a Hogue stock and Millet scope I enjoy the way it shoots and can kinda shoot it well. I say kinda because I always get a flyer. Sometimes I call it and know I pulled the shot but most of the time I thought it was a great shot until I relize it was 2" in any direction from the rest of the group. In 5 shot groups I get 1 or 2 flyers with all the rest in a 1" and tighter group. Its usually the 3rd or 4th shot I mess up but something is 1, 2, or 5.

What the hell am I doing wrong? It's frustrating. All I want is one group I'd be proud of showing off (for me that's a sub 1 MOA group, like I said, I'm new to this) I'm shooting Federal Gold Match 168gr, wind was nothing today.

I'll take any advice I can get. Thanks guys.

Here's the gun.
IMAG0315.jpg

 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

Is the barrel free floating and is the gun bedded?

Another thing to look at is bipod hop! Are you loading your bipod?
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

the barrel is free floated, not bedded. I load the bipod on the advice from a guy at the range, that made a huge difference in my groups. All I'm doing is leaning forward into the gun instead of pulling the gun to me, made a huge difference in stability.

I'm 90% sure its me and not the gun. It could be the gun but I think its just something I'm doing.

If it was something gun related like set up wouldn't I be getting larger groups? Not a tight group with one or two way off base shots?
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

You're trying too hard.

Relax. Make it shot its own and do it the exact same way. Breath control. Trigger control. Gun mount and position control. Focus on the cross hairs and don't try to see where your bullet is going. Smooth, light trigger squeeze to the rear with just the first pad of your finger. Support hand under your shooting arm armpit with a bag for control....
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

+1 for Tattoo. You're not getting flyers. Refer back to basic marksmanship. Basics is what even the most experienced slip up on when not paying attention. I know I did it yesterday. Left is left...It is not right and the arrows "R" and "L" are there to show me. Still, it took a trip 550 yards downrange before I realized my mistake. 10 rounds to figure out the drift was to to the right. Another 10 rounds to figure out I adjusted to the right. Nevertheless.

If you're new then your groups will get better over time with each practice. Every day at the range is practice. When I was 10 I thought I would never get that patch that is my avatar. My crowning achievement 42 years ago.
smile.gif
I'm still screwing up at the range. But it beats the hell out of golfing. Anybody can golf. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

Yeah I kinda figured its me getting worked up... After the flyer I always say "calm the F down".... I really enjoy shooting this rifle, Its the most fun I've had with a gun and I own about one or more of every style gun you can get and try it all.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

I'm the same way. Shooting is my favorite hobby, but sometimes no matter how hard i try i can't relax. I ask entirely too much of myself for the amount of experience i have. I'm best when i can rule my mind out of the equation, when i don't have time to think i do much better.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

may I ask when you shoot this flyer which direction is it - left, right, up, or down and is it consistent? Show a target on of the condition and you may get some answers to your question of is it me or the rifle? I had some of the same issues and I found it was me and breathing issues. I started working with the Sniper's Hide DOT drill and found it helped me work those issues out since you have to concentrate so much on such a small target. You would be amazed on how much lack of concentration can vary rounds.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSTARSZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">may I ask when you shoot this flyer which direction is it - left, right, up, or down and is it consistent? Show a target on of the condition and you may get some answers to your question of is it me or the rifle? I had some of the same issues and I found it was me and breathing issues. I started working with the Sniper's Hide DOT drill and found it helped me work those issues out since you have to concentrate so much on such a small target. You would be amazed on how much lack of concentration can vary rounds. </div></div>

Usually about 10 or 11 o'clock but it can go anywhere. `
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

RS,
Like most of the responses here, fundamentals are the key.
How much trigger pull does the gun have? 1&1/2 lbs are enough to start moving a gun off course. I wouldn't dare post what I run mine at on this site. Maybe some trigger work would help.
Try shooting your groups from bags, or a rest, get a couple good groups and some confidence and run with it.
Another reality is that the load your using might be the culprit. Try a different brand of ammo. Just some thoughts.
If I was in your shoes and didn't reload, I would have went with the Federal also.
Good Luck,
Miles
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

Get a data book and start logging your shots and you will be able to collect alot of good information as well as see patterns in your shooting as well.

Alot of good advice. Make sure there is no parralex in your scope as well as make sure you are using the same stock weld.

It really is the little things when it comes to small groups!!
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RS,
Like most of the responses here, fundamentals are the key.
How much trigger pull does the gun have? 1&1/2 lbs are enough to start moving a gun off course. I wouldn't dare post what I run mine at on this site. Maybe some trigger work would help.
Try shooting your groups from bags, or a rest, get a couple good groups and some confidence and run with it.
Another reality is that the load your using might be the culprit. Try a different brand of ammo. Just some thoughts.
If I was in your shoes and didn't reload, I would have went with the Federal also.
Good Luck,
Miles </div></div>

I have a Timney trigger set to factory in the gun but I do want to lighten it up some. I don't want to go to crazy because I would like to use this rifle to do some coyote hunting. I need to get a data book but I have no clue how to use the damn thing. Also I'm going to pick up some .308 dies for my reloader.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MedinaM40</div><div class="ubbcode-body">could be a cold bore shot? is it usually the first one?
</div></div>

It'd usually the 3rd or 4th but it has happened on any of them.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NOMAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get a data book and start logging your shots and you will be able to collect alot of good information as well as see patterns in your shooting as well.

Alot of good advice. Make sure there is no parralex in your scope as well as make sure you are using the same stock weld.

It really is the little things when it comes to small groups!!
</div></div>

Yeah I sure am getting alot of help. This site has been great so far. I've done alot of research here and its helped. Glad to see so many people willing to share.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

Whats your round count on the gun?
Can you get pics of your groups by shot?
Also, is your scope parallax free?
Is your barrel free of brass when you kick of the groups, or is your barrel always kept foul?

One of the best ways to tighten groups if its not an above variable is dry fire on a pastey or similar target.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

Attempting to get MOA or sub-moa accuracy from a factory rifle with factory ammunition may be too much to ask from your equipment.

Of course, FGMM is good ammunition and you have a decent, "factory", rifle.

From where I sit, the rifle may or may not be capable of sub-moa accuracy with the load you're shooting, or it may.... it's hard to say.

As others have said, scope paralax could be the issue... you have to make sure it's adjusted out and, you have to put your face on the rifle in the same spot and squeeze the trigger without moving the rifle.

Even if all is well with the rifle and ammunition, you may get fliers with your set up, IMHO. If you were loading for your rifle, I'd say different.

Different rifles like different loads and while FGMM is good ammo, not all rifles like it as much as others do and, the only way to know what your rifle is truly capable of, you'd have to do some load developement.

Every rifle, "rings", for lack of a better word... when the rifle goes bang, a shockwave goes through it... it travels at the speed of sound in metal wich is 18,000fps as the bullet travels down the barrel... the shockwave is going up and down the barrel as the bullet is going down the barrel. The idea is to load for the rifle in such a way as to have the shockwave by the reciever as the bullet exits the barrel ( since the barrel will be the most still at that point ). Since every rifle is different, you have to figure out how your own rifle rings.

This is why bedding is so important ( the rifle can't "ring", the same way if it's rattling around in the stock ), the bedding dampens the shockwave and transfers a lot of it to the stock... this is also why heavy barrels do better than lighter ones, ( the shockwave is dampened by the heavy barrel ) and that is why load developement is sooooo critical to accuracy.

When doing load developement on a 5,000.00 rifle, you will get groups that go out to almost 2" at 100yds then, as you get to the sweet spot, the groups go down to .25" or better.... ( they'll all be going through the same hole )... and this is all about load developement and if everything is well with your equipment.

So honestly, it's hard to say what's going on with your rifle... you may be doing everything 100% correctly and the rifle just doesn't like the ammo and/or, the fact that your rifle isn't bedded could be throwing the shots or, it could be you.

If you're really interested in finding your rifles true potential without spending the bank, I'd bring it to a good smith and have them bed the rifle ( that's not very expensive ) Also, if you're a brave soul, there are youtube videos that show the bedding process and, you could do it yourself. Then, have a friend that reloads work on a load for you.

I'm sure you could find a load that would give you .5" groups if you did that without too much fuss.

Sorry for the long-winded explanation but, it's a complicated subject and much misunderstood subect. Lots of folks, even here don't understand it but, they know to bed a rifle but, they don't know why they should etc.

So, even now, the old saying is true... there are three "B"s in accuracy, "Bullets", "Bedding" and, "Barrel".

 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

I feel your pain; being relatively new at this myself I'll tell you what works for me. Also noteing what's already been said WRT fundamentals, ensuring your barrel is free floated, etc...

1. Solid bench
2. Solid front rest (not bipod)
3. Quality rear bag (very important)

When I want to see what the rifle and ammo will do I setup like this, it helps me take ME out of the equation. I've no doubt some guys on here can flop a bipod down in the back of a moving pickup truck and shoot .5" groups, I can't. I need perfect conditions and the above items to shoot really good groups. Off a bipod with a squeeze bag in the rear on a good day I'm shooting about .75" five, five shot groups. Same gun same day using the above items those groups shrink down by half averaged over all 25 shots. I use this as a baseline for knowing what the gun/ammo will do and what I can't.
It also helps if you know someone who like mentioned above can shoot really well from any position. One of the guys I shoot with often is really good at shooting small groups (F/FTR shooter). When I think something is screwed up with the rifle or ammo he proves me wrong more often than not. The guy couldn't range a target using mildot's to save his ass but don't bet him he can't shoot smaller groups than you with your own gun. I've made that mistake
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

It could be a multitude of things, but from 100 yards its most likely either Flinch, Ammo, or parallax.

Start off by trying to make sure your scope is completely parallax free, and then shoot all 5 shots withoutlifting your head from the stock, to ensure consistent cheeck weld in case parallax isn't perfect. If that doesn't help then try different ammo. As others have said , dont discount ammo, its huge.Try 175 FGMM, black hills, southwest ammo. If you tried all three and neither tightened up groups then its most likely flinch.. you can search on here for ways to help that.

I put it in that order because I'm assuming your at the range by yourself. If your with someone,check flinching first. Just by looking at you they should be able to tell you right away if your flinching or jerking during shooting. If you are then thats the culprit.

As far as your rifle not being able to do sub-moa just because its factory, I'm sure other experienced people can chime in to confirm, but these days all the savage's and remmington 700's leaving the factory do atleast sub moa. Nowadays getting a 'shooter' doesnt mean sub-moa but means around .5moa straight from factory.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As far as your rifle not being able to do sub-moa just because its factory, I'm sure other experienced people can chime in to confirm, but these days all the savage's and remmington 700's leaving the factory do atleast sub moa. Nowadays getting a 'shooter' doesnt mean sub-moa but means around .5moa straight from factory. </div></div>

Yep.... I've seen lots of folks claiming here that their rifle does less than .5moa at 1150yds in a 308win to and, I know BS too. If half the folks could do what they claim here, we'd be in a different world. Now that is not to say that some of the folks here can... but, we're talking about a stock rem action, a stock rem barrel and a non-bedded stock.

In the real world, IMHO factory rifles sometimes do well but, a factory rifle with factory ammo isn't going to be a .5 moa rifle.... if it's a 1 moa rifle with factory ammo, you've got a shooter... at least in my own experience.

To get any rifle shooting .5moa even at 100 you have to load for it. I'm not talking about shooting a lucky 3 shot group... I'm talking about consistant accuracy and, there's a BIG difference.

Our new guy here is having the same experience and, he's wondering why. It could be something he's doing but, the rifle itself may be the issue when compared with how his own stick is doing with the ammo.

The old pros had it right, "BBB".
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

tatto said it. relax and breath!!! then pull the trigger, It might be you but it could be something on your gun too. You should still give yourself credit.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

Dryfire is the key to excellent marksmanship skills. How much do you do?
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

No where near what I should... I'm going to order my .308 dies,.only thing that has kept me from doing it is trying to figure out which ones I need and don't need. All my reloading up to know has been for just plinking.

Also going to order a new stock, looking hard at the B&C offerings.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but, we're talking about a stock rem action, a stock rem barrel and a non-bedded stock...</div></div>

Be careful about throwing money at a problem. Not knowing everything about your weapon or believing you more skillful than you are is as bad as shooting poorly. It does not matter whether your rifle is factory or custom. Your ammunition is factory or hand loaded. The OP has not shot his rifle enough to make any type of obvious determination or else he would have never started this thread. Example, he is shooting SMK 168 bullets. Has anybody bothered to ask him about the twist of his barrel? What if it is not 1:12?
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

I am also new to persision rifles, hahaha. just kidding.

I would do alot of dime washer drills like back in boot camp if you can. Its actually effective for demonstrating to yourself whether or not you are achieving a smooth trigger pull. Dry firing in general will help smooth out your trigger pull however. Try envisioning the trigger being pressed to the rear of the stock toward your armpit. Keep applying steady preasure throughout the stock and hold upon the break, good follow through.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

I have no clue what the dime washer drill is.

My biggest issue with practice (dry or not) is I work on a base a few hours from home. I go straight to base Monday morning and straight home Thursday afternoon, my house up there is not on my trip and I can't take the rifle on base. I would love to have it here because the is a nice public range right up the road that is not used much during the week. I could put a few rounds a week down range that way.

Even on the weekends I don't get to shoot as much as I used do because I feel bad dropping out on my wife after being gone all week, that and the honey do list is usually pretty extensive by the time I get home.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

It is 1:12, I should have included that in my first.post.

I think from reading I still believe its me and not.the rifle. I will keep plucking along and try some different ammo.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

RSWORDS,

It is possible that the barrel is heating up. I believe you mentioned third or fourth shot. A data book will help you identify a pattern if one exists. How much time are you taking between shots? Someone here with more experience will have to chime in. I have been told to take time between shots when trying to get good groups. How much time that should be, I am not sure. I am sure someone will address this issue. I hope this helps or at least gives you something to consider.

Tim
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RSWORDS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It is 1:12, I should have included that in my first.post.

I think from reading I still believe its me and not.the rifle. I will keep plucking along and try some different ammo. </div></div>

Well, if you believe it's you, it may be. You're the only one to know when you've pulled a shot.

I'd still bed the stock and start loading for it.
smile.gif
It's not a large investment for bedding and, if you plan on shooting much at all, reloading is the way to do anyway. If you reload, you don't actually save money but, you do shoot a lot more.
laugh.gif


The reason I bring up bedding is that I've personally seen a LOT of rifles out of the box shoot like crap with factory ammo but, it's always pretty easy to fix.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: phillietimothy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RSWORDS,

It is possible that the barrel is heating up.

Tim </div></div>


As the barrel heats up, the shots tend to start climbing but, it's a gradual thing and it really becomes pronounced at distance but, it won't be where you put three shots somewhere and one just flies somewhere else. You can see it happening in a gradual way usually. ( in my own experience )

RSWORDS,

Make sure you're not anticipating the shot and yanking on the trigger. You should pull the trigger so slowly that you remember the exact place the cross hairs were when the rifle went bang and therefore, you should be able to actually "call" the shot. Meaning that you know if you pulled it or not and where you expect the hole in the paper to be. It's easy to develop bad habits starting up and, when a rifle recoils, it's natural to develop a flinch. You have to train yourself out of it though.

I have no idea if this is what is happening to you or not and, I don't know your skill level etc. so, please don't take this the wrong way. I'm only meaning to help.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

I could be flinching but I don't think so, this bra y 308 kicks like a .22.compared to the 7mm Remain Mag I hunt with, last year I took a deer at a good distance with it and had to shoot from a pretty odd position, the scope.bit me.right above the eye and I never moved till after the deer was down, guess that could have caused me to develope a flinch also though.

Thanks for all the advice guys, I'm going to bed my gun (probably upgrade the stock while I'm.at it) work up some reloads, and practice some drills.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

I'm a novice when it comes to precision shooting, so take this with the grain of salt it's intended to come with...

If you're consistently throwing shots 3 or 4 it's most probably mental. My guess is that you're focusing on the group to be, instead of the shot you're taking. Stop shooting groups, and use the Sniper's Hide dot drill target.

When I haven't been able to get out and shoot for a while or my consistency sucks, I spend some time dry firing on the range before sending more live rounds down the barrel. Sometimes gets funny looks, but whatever...just from the yahoos that sling lead indiscriminately.

I usually get more vertical dispersion than horizontal. For me, it's almost always breath control. When I focus on breaking my shots with a consistent tempo and at the same exact place in my breath cycle, my consistency usually starts coming back.

I also almost always bring my .22LR with me to the range. Warming up with the .22LR helps me focus on the fundamentals. If I'm not satisfied with my centerfire performance, I go back to the trusty .22LR and work on it some more. Once I can get consistent 10 shot groups with the .22, I move back to the centerfire.

Eliminating as many of the rifle's variables never hurts (e.g. bedding the receiver & scope bases, getting better quality glass, changing out the trigger, higher quality stock, and on and on), but I'd work on your fundamentals first with a .22LR or even a decent pellet gun before dropping more cash into your rifle.

YMMV
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

It could easily be something as simple as your ammunition. Even if you are shooting only FPGMM, the ammunition IMHO is not that perfect that you will not get a flier if you are shooting 5-10 round groups. Most people that get those fliers with this ammo say it’s their flinch, it could be, but it could also easily be the ammo.
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

I only saw one mention of a rear bag, what are you using for a rest in the rear?

Rich
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

Read up on Riflescope Parallax, what it is, how it affects shooting, and how to negate its effects.

Also, take care to develop and maintain a good cheek/stockweld.

When 'everything is right' and flyers still occur, these two issues step up foremost in my mind.

If either of these is faulty, the crosshairs can be dead-on, and everything else about the shot can be perfect, but the gun really isn't aimed where we think it is. The only consistent symptom is random, unexplained flyers.

While ammunition can be a cause; I have never, ever been able to handload a more accurate cartridge than FGMM.

Greg
 
Re: Newbie To Persision Rifle - Keep Getting Flyers

try a different rifle , an AR or something , if you shoot tiny groups with that , then you have a gun problem