Newer ATF form 21b

HSNARC

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Has anybody gotten jammed up by the 2 new questions on the ATF form? I haven’t bought a gun retail in several years.

Today I go to a corporate sporting goods store and try to buy a new Marlin trapper.

I get to question 21B and I asked the gun counter guy what the hell does this mean? He says sir I can’t give you any information about how to answer. I say well I’m just buying a gun for myself, I don’t plan on giving or selling it to anyone else. I think this question aught to be no, and he coughs and shakes his head (no) and I’m like so it should be yes? I said it sounds like it should be no and he says you know a lot of people worry too much when they fill out this form. (Just tell me what the f you’re saying) So of course I get denied. gun counter Dude says I can’t tell you why you were denied and you can’t try again for 30 more days.

I am assuming 21B is a big no ?

I realize I am pretty stupid when it comes to lawyer speak, but seriously.

Any way to appeal it?
 

375fan

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I've done the new form twice in last couple months. I did notice the form is little different, didn't have a problem with it.
With that being said, I can't remember what 21b is. please refresh my memory :unsure:
 

mcameron

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    If I recall, the new question is basically asking whether you are going to furnish this gun to someone in furtherance of a crime....

    Are you going to furnish the gun to someone in furtherance of a crime??.....answer yes


    Are you not going to furnish the gun to someone in furtherance of a crime?.....answer no
     
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    HSNARC

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    I've done the new form twice in last couple months. I did notice the form is little different, didn't have a problem with it.
    With that being said, I can't remember what 21b is. please refresh my
    I've done the new form twice in last couple months. I did notice the form is little different, didn't have a problem with it.
    With that being said, I can't remember what 21b is. please refresh my memory :unsure:
    I've done the new form twice in last couple months. I did notice the form is little different, didn't have a problem with it.
    With that being said, I can't remember what 21b is. please refresh my memory :unsure:
    21b: Do you intend to purchase or acquire any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) or ammunition, for sale or other disposition to any person described in questions 21(c)-(m) or to a person described in question 21
     

    375fan

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    21b: Do you intend to purchase or acquire any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) or ammunition, for sale or other disposition to any person described in questions 21(c)-(m) or to a person described in question 21
    Thanks.
     

    corsairpilot62

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    Basically the new question in normal speak is. Are you buying gun to sell or give away? I think there is also one with buying ammo with gun or something like.
     

    Skunk

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    Has anybody gotten jammed up by the 2 new questions on the ATF form? I haven’t bought a gun retail in several years.

    Today I go to a corporate sporting goods store and try to buy a new Marlin trapper.

    I get to question 21B and I asked the gun counter guy what the hell does this mean? He says sir I can’t give you any information about how to answer. I say well I’m just buying a gun for myself, I don’t plan on giving or selling it to anyone else. I think this question aught to be no, and he coughs and shakes his head (no) and I’m like so it should be yes? I said it sounds like it should be no and he says you know a lot of people worry too much when they fill out this form. (Just tell me what the f you’re saying) So of course I get denied. gun counter Dude says I can’t tell you why you were denied and you can’t try again for 30 more days.

    I am assuming 21B is a big no ?

    I realize I am pretty stupid when it comes to lawyer speak, but seriously.

    Any way to appeal it?

    How well do you know your local LE?
     

    HeavyAssault

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    This is what I found:
    b. Do you intend to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) in furtherance of any felony or other offense punishable by imprisonment for a term of more than one year, a Federal crime of terrorism, or a drug trafficking offense?

    Form dated August 2023:
     

    lariat

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    This is what I found:
    b. Do you intend to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) in furtherance of any felony or other offense punishable by imprisonment for a term of more than one year, a Federal crime of terrorism, or a drug trafficking offense?

    Form dated August 2023:
    Seriously, that seems a bit much for a future accomplice or direct criminal to admit to, predetermined and all. Most who want to presumedly purchase a gun **legally** for an illegal transfer or use in a felony is going to have zero idea what this means, if they can even read it.

    You know how this one goes, for real: an honest criminal goes in to fill out the FFL form 4473 to purchase a firearm with his after-tax paycheck because he plans on using it to rob the liquor store down the block to get their pre-tax cash, but he will claim it on his yearly taxes as stolen goods per IRS form 525 and pay the fair market value of the cash, only to realize that he doesn’t have enough pre- and post tax money to pay the IRS. The the loop begins again.

    Who writes these damn forms?!
     
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    mcameron

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    Who writes these damn forms?!

    My favorite is "are you a fugitive from justice?"


    So I can commit a crime, run from the law, stay hidden, but am above lying on a form???

    80187z.jpg
     

    Ronws

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    Exactly. Like the IRS asking if you have any income to declare from illegal activities. Because all criminals may ignore the laws that describe their crimes but they would not lie on their taxes or a 4473.
     
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    HeavyAssault

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    Exactly. Like the IRS asking if you have any income to declare from illegal activities. Because all criminals may ignore the laws that describe their crimes but they would not lie on their taxes or a 4473.

    I'd suggest it's a "honey pot" trap to catch people in a "lie". So they can wag the paper you signed in court to the judge saying you ARE a criminal.
     

    Forgetful Coyote

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    Just lie. And use a straw buyer bro.
    Better yet- 80% lowers, solvent traps, etc.
    Fuck them people dude..
    I would argue every citizen is entitled to his 2A rights. Even us felons. ESPECIALLY us felons as a matter of fact..
    /s
    ATF: please note all responses by @Forgetful Coyote in the bear pit are for entertainment purposes only. But fuck yall anyway..
     
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    HSNARC

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    Not today Mr. Soup.
    How well do you know your local LE?
    I’m a has been. Been out for 10 years, moved a couple hours away ect. Not well. I actually work in a job that requires me to work with the locals a lot and try to strike up conversations to see if any of them are gun guys. “ back in my day” about a third of us were but seems more like 1 in 10 now
     

    armorpl8chikn

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    Are y


    I’m a has been. Been out for 10 years, moved a couple hours away ect. Not well. I actually work in a job that requires me to work with the locals a lot and try to strike up conversations to see if any of them are gun guys. “ back in my day” about a third of us were but seems more like 1 in 10 now

    Thats a first.
     

    HSNARC

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    Find an FFL who isn't a dork.
    Yeah, I really ought to have just bought online and used my normal guy, but there was a pretty significant cost savings with the sale they had going.

    Also, I live in Illinois and the state has run out all the little mom and pop type guys and there aren’t very many places that sell guns and are staffed by people who know the difference between guns and golf clubs. There is almost nowhere within 100 miles of where I live that has anything for sale other than 22s and semiauto Turkish shotguns. Almost never anything used or nicer than garbage tier fuddery.
     

    Im2bent

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    I’m a has been. Been out for 10 years, moved a couple hours away ect. Not well. I actually work in a job that requires me to work with the locals a lot and try to strike up conversations to see if any of them are gun guys. “ back in my day” about a third of us were but seems more like 1 in 10 now
    So you used to be le and your job then was to get chummy with people to see if they were gun guys? Why was that?
     

    Blue Sky Country

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  • Yeah, I really ought to have just bought online and used my normal guy, but there was a pretty significant cost savings with the sale they had going.

    Also, I live in Illinois and the state has run out all the little mom and pop type guys and there aren’t very many places that sell guns and are staffed by people who know the difference between guns and golf clubs. There is almost nowhere within 100 miles of where I live that has anything for sale other than 22s and semiauto Turkish shotguns. Almost never anything used or nicer than garbage tier fuddery.


    There is a niche for everything. A "garbage" Turkish semiauto shotgun could have saved the lives of these 4 college students at the University of Idaho on the night of the Kohberger murders and ensured that we do not have to clothe and feed that psycho anymore.

    Before you purchase a gun, take a few minutes to think about what you are going to use it for and do some online research. You might also find online vendors that carry good deals and then you work things out with your local FFL. So now, it does not matter if your local FFL is staffed by electric scooter enthusiasts, you will just be going in to do your paperwork and pick up your order.
     
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    Blue Sky Country

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  • So you used to be le and your job then was to get chummy with people to see if they were gun guys? Why was that?


    I bet the "gun guys" were equally interested to know why so many LE agencies are engaged in so many acts of corruption, negligence, and outright apathy towards actually stopping all of the violence and mayhem that is being perpetrated by *ahem* individuals we are not going to label for political correctness' sake...

    I mean, you got somebody who was just standing outside the Capitol on Jan 6 and they got several years, and meanwhile a Portland Or. woman who filmed herself waterboarding her baby and putting him in the freezer to "spite" her ghosting husband only got 30 days... We all see that something is wrong here don't we?
     
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    hlee

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    So if you complete the form by answering no, and six months later you decide to sale, gift, or trade the gun, did you commit a crime?
    No. You did not intend to sell the gun when you bought it. At some later time, you decided to sell the gun. This is perfectly legal.
     

    hlee

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    My puzzlement is how anybody can read that question (actually 21b and 21c) and NOT know what to answer.

    Just me, I guess.
    I know, right? I went in to buy a gun recently and the counter guy said "Hey, watch out for those new questions." They even had a big sign announcing the changes. I went through the form- it had been a while- and I couldn't tell you what the trick question was. I was approved. The form may not be "plain English" but its not exactly written in clicks and whistles either.
     

    lash

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    I agree that these are honeypot questions designed to try and catch law abiding citizens in a potential catch 22 situation. The old form had one straw man purchase question that was more than adequate to cover the situation.

    Whether or not a person should/should not have known the correct answer to these new questions is moot. These are trap questions. Designed as such. It’s more bullshit and should not be tolerated by a free citizen.

    All you arguing that only a stupid person would get them wrong are completely missing the point.

    Just frogs in a pot.:.
     

    tylerradke

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    Don't remember the numbers but first question yes, rest no, leave last 2 blank.
     

    mi650

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    Yeah. That’s why 80 percents and transfers without a FFL are getting banned in a lot of states
    And will be federal soon, maybe today.

    At least as far as eff bee eh tee eff is concerned.
     

    BurtG

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    I don’t remember back ground checks. Ccw permits. NFA. Bans. Being in the second amendment.


    You people that just want to keep “those people” from having guns are the problems
     

    mcameron

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    I don’t remember back ground checks. Ccw permits. NFA. Bans. Being in the second amendment.


    You people that just want to keep “those people” from having guns are the problems
    Isnt it funny how requiring ID to vote is 'racist' because apparently black people are too poor to get an ID....

    ...but requiring mandatory training, licensing, and additional taxes is somehow not racist?

    using their own logic, the left doesn't want black people to own guns and have a means to protect themselves.
     

    Forgetful Coyote

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    I don’t remember back ground checks. Ccw permits. NFA. Bans. Being in the second amendment.


    You people that just want to keep “those people” from having guns are the problems
    My man.
    2A doesn't say anything about having to be American either. Hence, Kim Jong Un should get however many nukes he wants. Viktor Bout was the biggest 2A absolutist proponent since Thomas fckn Jefferson. Change my mind...
     
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    E. Bryant

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    My puzzlement is how anybody can read that question (actually 21b and 21c) and NOT know what to answer.

    Just me, I guess.

    Some will claim that there isn't an intelligence test required to purchase a firearm, but they're wrong.
     
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