Old stock? I was imagining them to look like the norma ammo boxes.
- Thread starter Dead Eye Dick
- Start date
I'll take a picture of mine when I get home.
Look the same as what I got a year or so back from Brownells....
I think it may have been stuff from the Prime/RUAG dust up...
I got mine from Graf's Reloading. It was packaged nicely in a heavy duty box.
The 130 grain Golden Target is excellent. I used to run it in both of my two previous 6.5x55's but I have not yet tried them in my Creedmoor.
I know a lot of Creedmoor people around here load them with Vihtavuori N150 powder for precision, not necessarily for nosebleed high velocity. Highly regarded bullet for bird hunting as well.
I know a lot of Creedmoor people around here load them with Vihtavuori N150 powder for precision, not necessarily for nosebleed high velocity. Highly regarded bullet for bird hunting as well.
All I've got is a little h4350 and 8lbs of imr 4350. Any general window you've found that these like to jump? Some people are saying they are sensitive but if norma and prime can make quality ammo for most guns I can't imagine they are all that bad.
I have an old and a new box of them at home. The red ones are the old box. The new one looks more like a Norma box.
Give them a generous jump (think RDF) akin to "Satterlee's method" (best accuracy with a jump starting around .050 off the lands, and working back. Consistent (if not the absolute smallest) accuracy across the life of the barrel. I was skeptical at first, but it seems to hold true, and could explain why commercial ammo tends to have a long jump (chamber variances aside). No constantly re-working load data as the throat wears.
As to H-4350, I found 43.0grs gives good accuracy at 2900fps, but is getting kind of warm. So I settled on 42.5grs with a 2850fps velocity. Seems to be a good sweet spot between pressure and velocity to preserve barrel and brass.
As to IMR-4350; no idea. I know it ran slower, and hotter with 140gr Nosler CC's, so now have a partial 8lb jug collecting dust (was done during the last run on components, and H4350 was unobtainium; circa 2015).
Sounds like a great start. Im running peterson brass so I'll back off the charge quite a bit. I was hoping to get 2925fps. It may be doable at my altitude but I'd settle for 2850. Looks like 2925 would be the threshold for NRL hunter though. We'll see...
What brass and how many grains?
Lapua, start at 41.0
Remember these have a long bearing surface.
You'll prolly end up higher, but you know the deal.....
I ran my 18" hunting rifle load in my 28" that I am using in a NRL match and it made 2985 fps with Peterson brass, CCI450s, and 42.0 gr of Rl16.
Yeah, with the Hornady 140s I'm getting 2850~ at 40.8gr h4350 and thats a 24" barrel. That's right at the beginning of pressure signs but it just seems to be a fast barrel. So I'm really curious to see what I find with these 130s.
The Bartlein I had on my old rifle was a fast barrel. I was able to run 140 hybrids with Peterson Cases, CCI200 primers, and 41.6 grains of H4350 at 2930 fps in +80 degree weather, rain or shine, with no pressure signs. (Not that it really benefited me in anyway might I add. To counteract the extra oomph, I upped the weight of the rifle to a wrist irritating level. Did it for two matches and then I stopped. Stupid idea after listening to someone about it, even though I knew better.)
I ran the golden targets it up to 44 grains with Peterson brass, Federal primers, and H4350 to 3005 fps with no pressure signs. (In 30 degree temperatures though.) I wanted to see where exactly I was going to hit pressure signs, but didn't want to keep testing at the cost of components.
I like the windows I have for bullet jump. For the same barrel, my best window was 0.018, tested over a month.
I ran the golden targets it up to 44 grains with Peterson brass, Federal primers, and H4350 to 3005 fps with no pressure signs. (In 30 degree temperatures though.) I wanted to see where exactly I was going to hit pressure signs, but didn't want to keep testing at the cost of components.
I like the windows I have for bullet jump. For the same barrel, my best window was 0.018, tested over a month.
As I'm not in North America I'm unfamiliar with those powders. Others here will know better about them. Also, as I have yet to load the GT 130 gr in the Creedmoor, all I can base my assumptions off of is the x55, and in those I had very generous jump. x55's have long throats and long magazine wells so I was usually in the neighbourhood of 3mm (0.12") jump - or more. Also, chasing the lands gets old real quick if you're not shooting benchrest.
Looks like if I line up the beginning of the boat tail at the neck shoulder it puts me at -.035" off the lands, 2.800" COAL and 2.200" CBTO. Maybe I'll bump them back another .020"
For now I've just gone ahead and loaded up 20 rounds up to 42.5gr of imr 4350, again, this is in peterson brass. I should be edging in on 2850fps if all goes according to the plan. I'm mostly worried about velocity for this test. It's also pretty cold out so I'll give myself plenty of room to work and try to load for the bottom of the accuracy node.
For now I've just gone ahead and loaded up 20 rounds up to 42.5gr of imr 4350, again, this is in peterson brass. I should be edging in on 2850fps if all goes according to the plan. I'm mostly worried about velocity for this test. It's also pretty cold out so I'll give myself plenty of room to work and try to load for the bottom of the accuracy node.
Got to shoot a little, accuracy wasn't amazing but I was shooting through grass.
I only shot up to the 42.2gr imr 4350 and that's where I started to see ejector marks. That was hovering around 2950fps.
10k ft altitude 20.82in/hg and 35° F
I'll have to get home and look at the numbers some more but speed seems good! I don't think this bullet likes .055" off. I guess it's seating depth time!
OK guys, a little disappointed. Was able to do some seating depth testing. Made one mistake loading the mag the .070" and loaded an extra from the .060" batch. Not sure if it was first or last shot (top or bottom).
The most promising group was the .105", bullets seem to be happy and stable (small holes) but the group is still fairly large (.500") when compared to other loads shot in this rifle.
I have a few options.
Test .103" and .107"
test a different powder
when my magnetospeed shows up tomorrow, re-test my velocity nodes and see if that makes this thing shoot any better.
Should I just be happy with my 1/2" group and carry on?
....IMHO I'd be looking at the .070 & .060 for additional tweaking based on overall group size and similar horizontal & vertical POI's, despite the .070 group having an extra hole from the .060 batch (which hole is the one from the .060?).
It was the top one I believe.
Maybe I'll test .002 around each.
So..
.058 & .062
.068 & .072
Well I ran the test and loaded the rest of 50 at .070" off. The bottom two groups were warm up and "cool down" with the .070" load.
Strange that the window would be that narrow but the .058 window seems a little bigger.
The steel target was at 475 yards and had a vertical of 3-3.5" if you don't count the one that dropped low. My daughter chose the color...
1/2" isn't bad but I'll keep playing with it and if I find anything magical, I'll let you guys know.
...based on the new target results, I'd say the 0.058 was the better of the two, IMHO. If the 2 bottom groups were the 0.070, the one on the right has quite a bit of dispersion compared to the left. I'd target seating at the 0.059 and due the plus/minus variations that ultimately occur, you would still be within the range of your best groups to date....just my opinion.
Yeah your probably thinking clearly lol.
None of the groups look particularly clean. I think there is some improvement to be done with this powder/bullet/primer combo but I'm about to start mixing some things up.
In 6.5x55 Skan using 48.5gr Stabal with the 130gr Diamond Line for Vavg of 2865 and Sdev 11, 24" barrel. Volume thrown charges. Accuracy is good.
In the Creed try around 45gr to start maybe? Don't poke an eye out.
The GB/NDL have a longer bearing surface than the Berger 130s, so they won't accelerate quite as well with the same charge.
In the Creed try around 45gr to start maybe? Don't poke an eye out.
The GB/NDL have a longer bearing surface than the Berger 130s, so they won't accelerate quite as well with the same charge.
Naturally, as soon as I get a good load going, they become unobtainium. When I shoot the 400 or so I have left, I am going to NOSLERS 130 grain RDF. Got 500 of those. When I finish those up, planning on rebarrelling the MPA, either in 25 Creed, 25GT or possibly 6GT, leaning heavily towards 25GT. (I likes to be slightly apart from the crowd.)
What did you find worked?
The Sierra 130 gr HPBT is a copy of the 130 GT.
Hopefully less finicky. I may give them a try.
I have bought them at Grafs. Usually they are out of stock though. I ask for the in stock notification and buy a couple thousand at a time.
Superformance, with a BR4 Primer. Shoots tight and very consistent, single digit SD’s. Tried H4350, not bad, good extreme spreads, but accuracy not quite as good. I have Superformance on hand, only two pounds of H4350, so regardless not enough to depend on over the long run. Strangely, on my ladder tests, I got similar velocities, but the H4350, showed its best accuracy at the starting load and the Superformance showed best accuracy at the max load I used. (Which was well below any book max for any 130 grain bullets.
Well they are just, if not more unobtainium then the Normas. My MPA likes the Berger 130 VLD’s, the Sierra MK 130’s and the Norma GT’s. What it does not like is an empty case. (No bullet, no powder, no primer).
I have loaded a large amount of GT, in both 6,5x55 and .260 Rem, as it is the go-to bullet here in Scandinavia.
1. Don't chase the lands! It won't do any good. The closer you get to the lands, the worser it will shoot, i have seen it shoot 1/2 MOA groups from a OLD x55 barrel, with a 4 mm jump and my own old and allmost worn-out x55 are still doing great groups, even as i can't get any serious velocity from it anymore.
In my .260 i use to seat them to max magazine length and load with 40 grain Reload Swiss RS 52 and a Magtech 9 1/2 primer.
2: DO NOT USE IT FOR HUNTING!!!!!
The expansion is random and uncontrollably, animal may go down in a instant, but there is lead and fragments everywhere in it and i would decline from use for human consumption.
1. Don't chase the lands! It won't do any good. The closer you get to the lands, the worser it will shoot, i have seen it shoot 1/2 MOA groups from a OLD x55 barrel, with a 4 mm jump and my own old and allmost worn-out x55 are still doing great groups, even as i can't get any serious velocity from it anymore.
In my .260 i use to seat them to max magazine length and load with 40 grain Reload Swiss RS 52 and a Magtech 9 1/2 primer.
2: DO NOT USE IT FOR HUNTING!!!!!
The expansion is random and uncontrollably, animal may go down in a instant, but there is lead and fragments everywhere in it and i would decline from use for human consumption.
I've got an OK load with imr 4350, like I had posted earlier.
I've probably shot 15 rounds over the chrono @41.6gr and had an ES of like 27fps. Not the best but I'll work. Accuracy is sitting at 1/2" but I'd like to keep trying different combos. Superformance seems pretty far down on the burn rate chart. I kinda want to try some faster powders just to see if it's happier.
We are get the best velocities with Superformance and ES’s in the single digits. I used IMR4350 and it is a goto powder for the .243 (a deer killer for sure in the hands of my Brenda) but the velocities were disappointing low. Superformance fills the cases nicely. For those who live in climates were there are wide swings in temperatures, H4350 would be a better choice but in the sunny south, its not as much as an issue.
Midsouth had some in stock either late last year or earlier this year. It seems like everybody in the states only gets a supply once a year.
These are my go to deer bullet. I have had great expansion and penetration on over 20 deer between myself and my sons. I have shot deer from 35-400 yards with muzzle velocities between 2750 and 2985 fps. The only one I didn't get an exit on was a 50 yard quartering to shot on a large Kansas whitetail doe.
Man...I just started messing with the 130gr Golden Target in my new 6.5x47L and I am impressed (so far).
Rifle: FN SPR A2 with a 26" Krieger, M40, 1:8. The barrel was chambered for the 130 class bullets, and screwed on by Matt Stewart of Stewart Rifles out here in the boonies next to me. I bedded the action and found that I could get the factory trigger down to a hair under 2.5lbs safely. Matt does great work by the way.
Rifle has exactly 111 rounds through it, and only had 95 when I started today. So far it holds in the .3s and .4s with 123gr Scenars over a medium load of Varget (five shot groups, no seating depth testing yet either). If I try to push it hard, it opens up to MOA by the time I'm a touch over book max. That might be the only downside to this barrel.
Enough of that. I was a bit worried after reading this thread that I would have to work hard to find a load that my rifle likes with the 130gr Norma. All I did today was shoot (5) - three shot groups to test seating depth since it is reported by some to be depth sensitive. I arbitrarily used a mid book load of 38.5gr H4350 and loaded my five groups to jump .010, .025, .040, .055, and .070.
Like a true retard, I used my 1/2" AR500 target that I hammer at close range with my hog guns when I'm sighting in a new load (I zero at 75). That made it a bit more difficult to get a measurement on one of the groups (you'll see a "?"). However the 3/8 target gave me no issues.
I set my targets at 160 yards, because that is where I have the closest fence from my shop. *I shot the groups in reverse, and made a .2 mil adjustment left for the final three groups. That was with my 123gr Scenar zero. The lone headshot was a factory 123gr Scenar that I kept a few of for CBS.
I only chronographed two groups as there just isn't enough data for validity, but average velocities were in the 2,620 - 2,625 range and the ES and SD were decent. The third group gave me a crappy chono reading due to the sun, so I just called it quits. I more or less just had the chronograph out in case I got some extreme numbers for some odd reason.
As you can see, groups ranged from 'not bad at all' to 'holy shit'. I won't guarantee the one group at 1/2", but the others had obvious impacts. The best part is that they were pretty consistent, however I see more horizontal stringing as the jump got further.
I'm going to load up another 25 or so rounds and bracket that 38.5gr load. At 2,625 FPS it isn't a barn burner by any means, but this is a recreational rifle for me and not a comp gun.
Looking forward to seeing how this does on paper (probably jinxed myself into a bunch of 2 MOA groups or something).
Rifle: FN SPR A2 with a 26" Krieger, M40, 1:8. The barrel was chambered for the 130 class bullets, and screwed on by Matt Stewart of Stewart Rifles out here in the boonies next to me. I bedded the action and found that I could get the factory trigger down to a hair under 2.5lbs safely. Matt does great work by the way.
Rifle has exactly 111 rounds through it, and only had 95 when I started today. So far it holds in the .3s and .4s with 123gr Scenars over a medium load of Varget (five shot groups, no seating depth testing yet either). If I try to push it hard, it opens up to MOA by the time I'm a touch over book max. That might be the only downside to this barrel.
Enough of that. I was a bit worried after reading this thread that I would have to work hard to find a load that my rifle likes with the 130gr Norma. All I did today was shoot (5) - three shot groups to test seating depth since it is reported by some to be depth sensitive. I arbitrarily used a mid book load of 38.5gr H4350 and loaded my five groups to jump .010, .025, .040, .055, and .070.
Like a true retard, I used my 1/2" AR500 target that I hammer at close range with my hog guns when I'm sighting in a new load (I zero at 75). That made it a bit more difficult to get a measurement on one of the groups (you'll see a "?"). However the 3/8 target gave me no issues.
I set my targets at 160 yards, because that is where I have the closest fence from my shop. *I shot the groups in reverse, and made a .2 mil adjustment left for the final three groups. That was with my 123gr Scenar zero. The lone headshot was a factory 123gr Scenar that I kept a few of for CBS.
I only chronographed two groups as there just isn't enough data for validity, but average velocities were in the 2,620 - 2,625 range and the ES and SD were decent. The third group gave me a crappy chono reading due to the sun, so I just called it quits. I more or less just had the chronograph out in case I got some extreme numbers for some odd reason.
As you can see, groups ranged from 'not bad at all' to 'holy shit'. I won't guarantee the one group at 1/2", but the others had obvious impacts. The best part is that they were pretty consistent, however I see more horizontal stringing as the jump got further.
I'm going to load up another 25 or so rounds and bracket that 38.5gr load. At 2,625 FPS it isn't a barn burner by any means, but this is a recreational rifle for me and not a comp gun.
Looking forward to seeing how this does on paper (probably jinxed myself into a bunch of 2 MOA groups or something).
For me, the 130GT's love the 2850'ish to 2950'ish velocity. It's a huge accuracy node for me.
42-42.5gr's of H4350.
42-42.5gr's of H4350.
I'm a little less enthusiastic about them today. Measured COL as well as CBTO and I had about a .014" COL ES across 25 rounds. Started measuring bullets, quit after my 6th or 7th when I had .011" of difference already.
I'm still going to keep my hopes up though while I shoot them. Might be that it makes little difference (especially for me since I'm not a benchrest shooter). I had that much OAL swing with the 69gr SMK, and my .223 trainer still loves them.
I'm still going to keep my hopes up though while I shoot them. Might be that it makes little difference (especially for me since I'm not a benchrest shooter). I had that much OAL swing with the 69gr SMK, and my .223 trainer still loves them.
I think you hit on the key part; how to they shoot? Ogive deltas on bullets is an industry wide problem. It's just the nature of the manufacturing tolerances and speeds at which the machines are run, and for how long before the tooling is replaced. The early RDF's were literally all over the place with ogive location, but they still shot reasonably well.
For the size targets most people shoot at, at the distances most people shoot at (under 900yds), most won't even see a difference, or can't load the bipod consistently enough to see the vertical stringing caused by the "wandering" ogive. <shrug>
Loaded up (5), five-shot groups around what I thought was the best seating depth window. Please bear in mind that I'm using virgin Lapua brass that has only been run over a Forester FL sizing die expander ball.
Rifle is a 6.5x47L with 26" Krieger. Barrel has 136 rounds on it after these last 25. Powder is H4350, primer CCI BR4. I'm jumping .025.
Produced three groups of (5) that were in the .6 - .7 range...two were double groups and the third a perfect "5" like you see on dice. Fourth group was a .9, but I blew the 5th shot out of my ass - oh well. Getting disappointed, I loaded the last five rounds and proceeded to shoot a .253". The last shot was actually the one at 2 o'clock that opened the group...I kept telling myself "don't screw it up man, don't screw it up". Well, I screwed it up, but not too bad. Average velocity was an even 2,700, ES - 22, and SD - 8. Nothing to write home about there.
I know fluke groups exist, and until I shoot a verification group, I'll chalk this up to a fluke. For reference; the 123 Scenar over 34.8 - 35.3gr Varget gets me ES in the 11 and under range with SD anywhere from 1 - 4. Groups have been in the .3s and .4s. What worries me is that this great group is right next to a node for a shit group. More testing needed for sure.
I'll be sure to push this bullet a little harder in hopes to tighten up the ES and SD. Maybe I can get some more decent groups out if it. I have a pretty decent selection of powders on hand, so I won't feel bad about going through 150 bullets just to see how well I can get this rifle to shoot. This is a fun gun for me, not a comp rig.
Rifle is a 6.5x47L with 26" Krieger. Barrel has 136 rounds on it after these last 25. Powder is H4350, primer CCI BR4. I'm jumping .025.
Produced three groups of (5) that were in the .6 - .7 range...two were double groups and the third a perfect "5" like you see on dice. Fourth group was a .9, but I blew the 5th shot out of my ass - oh well. Getting disappointed, I loaded the last five rounds and proceeded to shoot a .253". The last shot was actually the one at 2 o'clock that opened the group...I kept telling myself "don't screw it up man, don't screw it up". Well, I screwed it up, but not too bad. Average velocity was an even 2,700, ES - 22, and SD - 8. Nothing to write home about there.
I know fluke groups exist, and until I shoot a verification group, I'll chalk this up to a fluke. For reference; the 123 Scenar over 34.8 - 35.3gr Varget gets me ES in the 11 and under range with SD anywhere from 1 - 4. Groups have been in the .3s and .4s. What worries me is that this great group is right next to a node for a shit group. More testing needed for sure.
I'll be sure to push this bullet a little harder in hopes to tighten up the ES and SD. Maybe I can get some more decent groups out if it. I have a pretty decent selection of powders on hand, so I won't feel bad about going through 150 bullets just to see how well I can get this rifle to shoot. This is a fun gun for me, not a comp rig.
Those of you that are having good results with these bullets, which brand, rifling style (5R or ??), and twist are you using? I'm curious if that makes any difference.
Bartlein 1-8.5" twist AI barrel.
