Rifle Scopes NXS Beast vs. S&B PM II
There is a VAT and additional cost of getting a NF in Europe. I spoke to the guys in Sweden when I was in Austria about it and NF doesn't adjust their price for Europe so they end up costing more.
Here it's $3200,
I believe U.S. citizens can still get a V.A.T. refund when departing the E.U.
I think the merchant gives you the paperwork, and you need to certify that it's for personal use, outside the E.U. You submit the ppwk at the airport, and the guvmint mails you a refund check.
Thiis is all based on info from my wife - who travels and shops in Europe, usually in "revenge" after she peeks into my safe. Gotta get the combo changed!
I think the merchant gives you the paperwork, and you need to certify that it's for personal use, outside the E.U. You submit the ppwk at the airport, and the guvmint mails you a refund check.
Thiis is all based on info from my wife - who travels and shops in Europe, usually in "revenge" after she peeks into my safe. Gotta get the combo changed!
Wow, pretty close to what I originally thought on the European cost on the BEAST. Any idea what a S&B 5-25x goes for in Germany? Not that any of this matters to those of us in the US, but it does put things in perspective. While we may be seeing prices increasing here in the US, it is typically not nearly as bad as it is in Europe. I have some friends in Norway and prices out there for just about anything would make all of us cringe...
I used to sell Stihl power equipment. There happened to be a local factory in another industry that was German-owned. Germans that were coming to the factory on business often stopped in and would buy Stihl power equipment. They told me it was about half again more expensive there than here for whatever reason. It wouldn't surprise me if optics were the same way.
Yikes, so in Europe the BEAST is 1300 € more expensive than Schmidt's, that is going to be a hard sell over there. So put in that perspective, the BEAST is a great deal here in the US
Got my ATACR this afternoon from UPS and just had a chance to check it out at 9pm. I was surprised to see "Made in Japan" on the bottom, I thought these were supposed to be a US product? I ordered the MOAR reticle and it looks great, I wanted wide spacing between the clicks and I personally prefer MOA and IPHY to mils. The turret clicks are outstanding too, very easy to get it right the first time. There are 80 clicks/per turn, which is much fewer than the S&B and Premier 5-25x scopes. This is a well built, beefy/heavy, solid scope, yet is compact in length without the shade. I hope I have some older BC flips to put on it, the new ones are apparently crap.
My initial concern is how forgiving the eyebox is; looking at my TV tonight, only 8' away and at 25x, the eyebox seems more critical than my S&B 5-25x, but this is not a realistic test and I don't have the S&B here either. I'll have them both together in a week or so and do a proper comparison. I'll check out the ATACR during the day tomorrow.
PS The ATACR is not disappointing, I'm quite happy with my choice. The eye box seems OKay, now that I've mounted the scope on a rifle instead just holding it with two hands like a telescope. Clearity also seems very good, although proper testing is a problem in CA since my neighbors would scream if they saw me with a rifle in my front yard. So, a report on resolution and contrast will have to wait for a week or so when I get back home to NV. Like the S&B 5-25, there is tunneling at low power at about the same point in the ATACR (~7x or so).
My initial concern is how forgiving the eyebox is; looking at my TV tonight, only 8' away and at 25x, the eyebox seems more critical than my S&B 5-25x, but this is not a realistic test and I don't have the S&B here either. I'll have them both together in a week or so and do a proper comparison. I'll check out the ATACR during the day tomorrow.
PS The ATACR is not disappointing, I'm quite happy with my choice. The eye box seems OKay, now that I've mounted the scope on a rifle instead just holding it with two hands like a telescope. Clearity also seems very good, although proper testing is a problem in CA since my neighbors would scream if they saw me with a rifle in my front yard. So, a report on resolution and contrast will have to wait for a week or so when I get back home to NV. Like the S&B 5-25, there is tunneling at low power at about the same point in the ATACR (~7x or so).
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Before you guys get all bent out of shape about the NF not being 100% made in the US, I would like you to consider who dominates the market on camera lens glass. I have over 20k invested in Nikon glass, all being made in Japan. There are no US companies that come anywhere close to the level of perfection apparent in Japanese made glass, and the Germans know a thing or two about glass as well. I buy US when I can when it makes sense, but unfortunately we are SOL in the glass department here guys. When I dropped that 10% down for the beast a couple months ago, I did so with the expectation of getting the best glass available in any scope. I hope I'm not disappointed.
Few would expect the NF BEAST or ATACR to be "100% Made in the US." However, I was surprised that not enough of it is "made in the US" even to say so on the scope. NF says openly on SH that it buys glass from Euro, Japanese, and US manufacturers - whichever can provide glass to their specs, so that aspect is well understood already.
The SfP models are Made in Japan, the FFP models are made in the USA this has been discussed at length.
The ATACR is a SFP scope hence the marking.
The F1, the BEaSt as well as others are US
reading is fundamental
Beast with MADE IN USA across the top
The ATACR is a SFP scope hence the marking.
The F1, the BEaSt as well as others are US
reading is fundamental
Beast with MADE IN USA across the top
Yikes, so in Europe the BEAST is 1300 € more expensive than Schmidt's, that is going to be a hard sell over there. So put in that perspective, the BEAST is a great deal here in the US
I had a quote the other week for a 12-50x56 FFP (P4 Fein) plus a 5-25x56 SFP (P4l Fein) for 4000€ together.
Recalculated it would have been 1777€ for the 12-50 and 2222€ for the 5-25. Good price if you ask me.
Didn't bite the bullit, because the 5-25 wasn't FFP, and my mate (12-50) did want a SFP.
Bummer, now we have to wait for about 5 months.
Regards Gijs
I plan on getting a Beast for a new build that will be done in about a month. Realistically when do you think they will be available for delivery? I want one for this build but if it will be too long of a wait I'll take an NXS off another rifle, which I don't want to do.
I have one on order through EuroOptic and they expect June or July for inventory to start rolling in. I hope those estimates are not to optimistic.
Regarding USA vs. Europe pricing. Just bought a NXS 5,5-22x56 (Zero Stop - HS Turrets) in Iceland. My price was very close to 2400 USD. Pretty happy about that price - at least it is better to buy that scope here rather that importing it from the US and paying Icelandic VAT.
I also ordered the BEAST today along with some of the Nightforce 34mm 6 bolt 1.125"high rings. I asked about the ADI with level for regular 34 mm rings, but am still waiting for an answer. Are you active duty or just buying civilian? With the discount and my .300 win mag, this scope will be a fantastic addition.
I had a chance to look through the Beast a couple weeks ago at the range. It was only a 100 yard range so not the ideal test so I spent more time looking at tree limbs on the mountain ridge than at the target. The glass was amazing compared to what I'm used to with my 22x Nightforce. Still though, I'm not prepared to spend an extra 1000 on a scope over mine, when the one I have has performed so well. Just what little time I spent with it, I'll say I believe the Beast has the best glass I've ever looked through and I feel confident you could run it over with your truck and only have to replace the rifle it was attached to. I can't speak of the Bender though cause I've never had the pleasure.
I thought S&Bs were all the rave until I got behind my Mil-Spec F1. That is sold and I'll be ordering a NXS F1 today in MLR 2.0 going to give the new reticle a try. I personally would rather have two NF then 1 or 1.5 S&Bs any day of the week. I got behind on of the new tan ones, and I hated the turrets.
At the least for comps I've been in recent months where I was running the Mil F1 MLR I have personally had a serious need for SFP, higher magnification, thinner reticle, etc. Any KYL stage, or KD stage on sub-moa targets I have thought to myself, man I'd love to be behind my 5.5-22x56. I just wonder if I would still be as capable on stages with 600 yard movers with a SFP as I am with FFP. Movers stagers are one of the stages that usually keeps me in contention because I usually net high scores I do attribute some of that to the FFP.
Unfortunately I'm not in the position to own both right now. If the ATACR continues to be well received I may purchase that instead of another gun. I'm extremely interested to hear what Lowlight has to say about the ATACR. Please hurry up and give us a review!
At the least for comps I've been in recent months where I was running the Mil F1 MLR I have personally had a serious need for SFP, higher magnification, thinner reticle, etc. Any KYL stage, or KD stage on sub-moa targets I have thought to myself, man I'd love to be behind my 5.5-22x56. I just wonder if I would still be as capable on stages with 600 yard movers with a SFP as I am with FFP. Movers stagers are one of the stages that usually keeps me in contention because I usually net high scores I do attribute some of that to the FFP.
Unfortunately I'm not in the position to own both right now. If the ATACR continues to be well received I may purchase that instead of another gun. I'm extremely interested to hear what Lowlight has to say about the ATACR. Please hurry up and give us a review!
I'm not Lowlight but...compared to my NXS, the ATACR clarity is leaps and bounds better. It's truly like watching a football game on a standard, tube-style television and then replacing it with a 1080p l.e.d. setup.
PMed LL the same question, what ring height did you have to go with? Are you running it on a bolt gun or the POF in your sig? I'm trying to figure out the minimum ring height for clearance on a 20 MOA base. Tried calling NF but nobody is home.
I'm running it on the POF pictured in a GDI mount. If I'm not mistaken, the GDI height is 1.375 and it sits just right. The mount pictured in my signature photo is the American Defense AD-Recon. Click the "SPECS" link to see photos of the NXS in the GDI mount.
P
Pleistarchus
Guest
The SfP models are Made in Japan, the FFP models are made in the USA this has been discussed at length.
The ATACR is a SFP scope hence the marking.
The F1, the BEaSt as well as others are US
reading is fundamental
Beast with MADE IN USA across the top
I was wondering if you've had a chance at the BEAST yet or heard anything new. Also you said that since it is a FFP it will be made in the US as are the F1's, so do you believe it will have the same glass as the F1 or will the glass be outsourced, and if so, do you know who will be dong the glass for the BEAST. Thanks
Updates?????
To revive this thread, has anyone managed to do a true side by side on the BEAST and the S&B? I've been holding off on the S&B for quite some time in the hopes that SOMEONE would come up with a true competitor. It sounds as though the BEAST may be it, but unless the glass on the BEAST is comparable, it's tough to spend S&B money on it.
Low Light, would you mind giving some details on the QC issues you've been having with the recent S&B scopes?
Thanks
To revive this thread, has anyone managed to do a true side by side on the BEAST and the S&B? I've been holding off on the S&B for quite some time in the hopes that SOMEONE would come up with a true competitor. It sounds as though the BEAST may be it, but unless the glass on the BEAST is comparable, it's tough to spend S&B money on it.
Low Light, would you mind giving some details on the QC issues you've been having with the recent S&B scopes?
Thanks
Currently there are no BEASTS outside of NF; but very soon. I've got mine that I have been comparing against others, and its a beautiful scope. I've used mine side by side next to a 5-25 and 12-50 PMII as well as other brands. I am extremely curious to hear the feedback once they start delivering. I personally think its every bit as good as the S&B and that those who purchased them will be very pleased with the optical quality and mechanical design. The true testament will be feedback from end users which I'm excited to hear.
My opinion.
I used to be a firm supporter of NF as they were originally Australian designed and owned (still might be now don't know) and was extremely proud that an Australian company is playing a large part in the shooting community.
When I purchased my NXS it was the top of the line (mil rads, improved faster zero stops, new reticle) and I purchased all the fruit NF ballistics program, rings, cosine indicator).
6 months later a FFP came out and since then there had been several innovations. This frustrates the crap out of me. I wish I had just bitten the bullet and gone S&B from the get go.
I view NF products as a work in progress scope line.
The market is flooded with different models.
When I was shopping around for a spotting scope I contacted NF with the question as to why they didn't make spotting scopes?
I was told they want to focus on the scope line and are not interested in other optical devices for shooting. I purchased a Vortex instead and I'm glad I did. There product support and warranty is second to none.
I know technology is ever evolving and there will be changes but I have personally never heard of someone selling there S&B, March or USO scope to get a NF. The same cant be said about the second hand sales of NF to upgrade.
I see NF as trying a shot gun approach trying multiple designs in the hope of getting it right with a second hand resale value that diminishes with every new model.
S&Bs core design is the same apart from the addition of the MTC turrets.
Reticles aren't ever changing and the KISS theology applies.
It pains me to say this about such a well known Australian company but here goes,
Buy a S&B and as all the posters have previously said "don't look back"!
They are the benchmark for a reason and until a scope has an internal rangefinder, windage calc at several different ranges and a tracking and lead solution don't see it changing.
I used to be a firm supporter of NF as they were originally Australian designed and owned (still might be now don't know) and was extremely proud that an Australian company is playing a large part in the shooting community.
When I purchased my NXS it was the top of the line (mil rads, improved faster zero stops, new reticle) and I purchased all the fruit NF ballistics program, rings, cosine indicator).
6 months later a FFP came out and since then there had been several innovations. This frustrates the crap out of me. I wish I had just bitten the bullet and gone S&B from the get go.
I view NF products as a work in progress scope line.
The market is flooded with different models.
When I was shopping around for a spotting scope I contacted NF with the question as to why they didn't make spotting scopes?
I was told they want to focus on the scope line and are not interested in other optical devices for shooting. I purchased a Vortex instead and I'm glad I did. There product support and warranty is second to none.
I know technology is ever evolving and there will be changes but I have personally never heard of someone selling there S&B, March or USO scope to get a NF. The same cant be said about the second hand sales of NF to upgrade.
I see NF as trying a shot gun approach trying multiple designs in the hope of getting it right with a second hand resale value that diminishes with every new model.
S&Bs core design is the same apart from the addition of the MTC turrets.
Reticles aren't ever changing and the KISS theology applies.
It pains me to say this about such a well known Australian company but here goes,
Buy a S&B and as all the posters have previously said "don't look back"!
They are the benchmark for a reason and until a scope has an internal rangefinder, windage calc at several different ranges and a tracking and lead solution don't see it changing.
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In Australia
The Beast is advertised between $3600 - $4125 (Expected delivery August).
The S&B 5-25x56 pmii p4 fine with LP/DT/MT CW $3900 (last one in Aus for about a year. Extremely hard to get)
Aussieshooter,
Thank you for this reply. I ordered my Schmidt and Bender MPII 5-25x56 two weeks ago and it will be here early this Friday (I was given a lead time of 10-12 weeks). Meanwhile, I am selling my Nightforce NXS scope.
I completely agree with your comments. You have to go with what is tried and true. I have not heard of anyone going from Schmidt and Bender to Nightforce and you have at least one person (me) that is going the other direction.
Well after much debate I went ahead and ordered my BEAST today. LaRue gave a lead time of 3-9 weeks on the invoice, so planning on twice that to be realistic it will be there by the time I'm CONUS again. It was TOUGH to spend the money on an optic I've never had hands-on with, but I'm excited to get my paws on it.
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