OAL question from a noob

[LostinAR]

Alright so I got a Rem 700 aac-sd in .308 today and was working up some loads for it. I have a question about the COL. I was loading IMR 4064 starting a 42.3 and laddering up to 44.0 with FED 210. I'm using Hornady interlock 165g sp. I trimmed my new Win cases to 2.005 and started at 2.75 COL. It seems like I'm hitting when trying to close the bolt and was wondering about my seating depth. I did a little research and watched this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv-D1mEI514&feature=related
so I removed my firing pin and seated all the way down to 2.618 and my bolt still doesn't drop freely like on the video....and according to all you guy your COL is like 2.8 or so. What am I doing wrong. I'm sorry this is a basic idiot new guy question.

 

[justinbaker]

Re: OAL question from a noob

if the bolts hard to close it could be a sizing issue

did you full length resize, neck size?

 

[QuiggyB]

Re: OAL question from a noob

Try closing the bolt on a piece of brass with no bullet in it and see if you have the same problem. If you do you need to size it back more.

 

[LostinAR]

Re: OAL question from a noob

yes sirrreee

 

[Beef82]

Re: OAL question from a noob

Yep, sounds like headspace. Which seems strange with new brass. You'd be awful lucky to be able to get anywhere near the rifling at mag length much less below in a late model factory Remington chamber.
Try FL sizing a case and see what happens.

 

[LostinAR]

Re: OAL question from a noob

So with a 2.005 piece of brass it doesn't drop the bolt free.....it should theoretically right? alright so I fl'ed it again and it still doesn't drop the bolt....actually trimmed the case length down to 1.83 and still doesn't drop like I think it should....am I crazy?

 

[LostinAR]

Re: OAL question from a noob

So is the "bolt drop without firing pin" a good way to test. I loaded down to a COL of 2.605 and it still won't drop even when the brass is just 1.83. it takes some pressure to push bolt forward and I can hear a tiny click or ping and then it will go down.....I'd imagine that's cramming the headspace but how is this happening with new brass at spec?

 

[QuiggyB]

Re: OAL question from a noob

is 2.005 from the case head to the end of the neck? IF so you need to be measuring to the shoulder. That is the part that is contacting the chamber, not the end of the neck. To make these measurements you will need a gauge similar to one of these:

Typically locally available:
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=35168/Product/Hornady-Lock-N-Load-trade-Headspace-Gauge-Tool

A better setup:
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=35...sert-308-Family

and
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=34014/sku=09-1050/Product/XL-Comparator-Bump-Gage-Body

The hornady sets are really just holes drilled in the comparator bodies. With the sinclair set the inserts are made with the same shoulder angle the case is supposed to have so it works better in my opinion. If you get the XL body you can measure cases with bullets seated in them.

If you have a tool that will take this measurement then you need to measure an unsized piece of brass, run it through your FL die and measure it again. If nothing changed you didnt size the brass. Adjust the die so that you move the shoulder back .002 and see if that works.

New unfired brass "should be" at the saami spec and should chamber. Your rifle may have a headspace issue. The good news is that if you do its undersized.

How does a factory round feed? Have you fired any factory rounds through it? If so you should compare a fired factory round which would be the exact size of your chamber minus about .001 against this new brass and see whats different.

 

[JB02]

Re: OAL question from a noob

Use a hornday OAL gauge with a .308 modfied case and a 30 cal insert for the oal gauge. this will give you your ogive length (where the fat part, or ogive, of the bullet contacts the rifling aka the lands), and many go for .02-.04 off the lands.

If you're trimming your cases below 2.005 and seating your bullets with a COL less than 2.810 then something is wrong. You mentioned that you FL sized all your brass ...

Tried any factory ammo?

 

[QuiggyB]

Re: OAL question from a noob

Like this. The pictures show the sholder moving .003 forward from a new unfired case to a fired case. When I tun that case through my resize die it should then move back about .002 or .001 longer than the unfired round was. This will produce a round ideally sized for my chamber.

Unfired case:

Fired case:

 

[LostinAR]

Re: OAL question from a noob

Current brass is 1.57 to shoulder 1.72 to neck and 2.005 to mouth but I've trimmed one down to 1.83 to mouth. and the bolt will close with a little force but it doesn't drop freely like in the video I listed.....is that even a good method

 

[LostinAR]

Re: OAL question from a noob

have not tried factory yet just got the gun this afternoon and wanted to reload for it but I'll go grab some factory be back in 30....

 

[QuiggyB]

Re: OAL question from a noob

If its not closing freely then the shoulder is rubbing. If its still closing without having to press too hard then maybe your chamber is exactly at the spec.

What youll want to do is verify that you are moving the sholder back with your die. You cant do that with calipers eyeballing it because we are talking about a few .001s. Youll need a gauge that fits on your calipers like the ones I linked.

In any case the only measurement you need to work about is case head to the shoulder. Dont worry about the neck any more right now.

 

[LostinAR]

Re: OAL question from a noob

Thanks for the help QuiggyB, I got two different types of factory ammo and it's measuring 1.732 and 1.723 to the neck 1.574 to the shoulder on both types

FWIW on these rounds the bolt doesn't drop freely either. maybe it needs to be broken in or I have been misled by the previously posted video...I'm pretty new to bolt guns

 

[QuiggyB]

Re: OAL question from a noob

Might just need to clean all of the factory grease out of the gun real good too. They tend to coat the gun up so it doesnt rust if it sits in a box for a year before it gets sold. Can use some qtips and bore mops to get the chamber area real good or spray some brake cleaner in there.

How are you measuring to the shoulder?

 

[LostinAR]

Re: OAL question from a noob

I'm going to guess incorrectly by the fact that you asked....

from the head to the start of the shoulder with calipers....

 

[QuiggyB]

Re: OAL question from a noob

You can't measure it that way. See the two pictures I posted above and the links to two common gauges for taking this measurement. You will need something like one of those 3. Personally I recommend the sinclair one but you can probably find the hornady set locally at a store with a moderate amount of reloading supplies.


Typically locally available:
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=35168/Product/Hornady-Lock-N-Load-trade-Headspace-Gauge-Tool

A better setup:
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=35...sert-308-Family

and
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=34014/sku=09-1050/Product/XL-Comparator-Bump-Gage-Body

 

[targaflorio]

Re: OAL question from a noob

Is your rifle brand new? If it is a Saami spec chamber, you should have no trouble closing the bolt on factory brass. if you have the same problem with factory ammo as your handloads, the problem is not with your handloads.
Sounds like you loaded a bunch of ammo before getting your dummie rounds working properly? I would suggest getting everything squared away before making live ammo.

 

[LostinAR]

Re: OAL question from a noob

Targa- yes I put the cart in front of the horse so to speak because the gun wasn't in yet and I was itchin to load some for it with the intention of shooting it the day it arrived. Factory ammo resists the bolt in the same manner than the handloads to. As far as bolt actions go, when I go to slide the bolt shut it stops about 1/4 of an inch before it can drop down, I have to give it some pressure to slide the bolt down. It could be because it's new or that I'm a girly man....but this 700 aac-sd is making my weatherby's bolt (which is brand new as well )feel more like melted butter everyday.
In a somewhat related point. my brass is also being scratched up. I noticed it was under the feed lips (I think that's what they are called, I'm don't know every part no) it only happens when loading from the mag area I ran my finger under and it doesn't have a burr....should I polish this or is it because the spring is new and still stiff?

[/img]

 

[QuiggyB]

Re: OAL question from a noob

I would clean everything real well and lube it up. Mag area, chamber, barrel, bolt. They put a lot of gunk in there at the factory. That will probably solve your problem. It should feel smooth when you run the bolt and close it. Not gritty or rough. If you put some sovent on a qtip and swab it around in there and it comes out some other color keep cleaning

 

[targaflorio]

Re: OAL question from a noob

I agree, clean it real good, apply some militec, kroil or equiv and run the bolt about a hundred times. Make sure it's running good with factory ammo, then work up a load. If its not, then take it where you bought it, to a gunsmith or call the manufacturer cuz something ain't right. You did check to make sure it is chambered for the round you are loading?

 

[LostinAR]

Re: OAL question from a noob

Yup .308 winny, I went through about 50 qtips of crap inside....if this gun is new how is there so much inside? I assume they factory fire it but it seems like in my opinion this is more than usual for a "new" gun. I ran the bolt about 500 times while watching football and will take it to the range next saturday as my range doesn't stay open past 6 on weekdays and I don't have land yet. QuiggyB....I ordered the products you suggested today and will prolly need more help once they come in but for now I'll just give everything a rest. I appreciate it guys !!

 

[QuiggyB]

Re: OAL question from a noob

Not a problem. Send me a PM when you get them.

 

[QuiggyB]

Re: OAL question from a noob

And no its not abnormal for factory rifles to be that dirty. They put all kinds of crap in there. I assume its to prevent rust when they sit around for a couple of years in the box. Then they fire them once and ship them out. you just have to keep cleaning until its clean. Make sure you do down the inside of the barrel too. For things you can take out like the bolt hosing them off with a can of brake cleaner helps. Since this is a .308 you can get an AR10 chamber mop (the cotton one, not the brass one), soak it in some solvent (Brakefree CLP works good for this), put it on your cleaning rod and clean the whole chamber out real well. You can spin it in there. Will save you a ton of time.

Looks like this: