OCW test advice needed

[HobbyShooter]

I had a chance to shoot my first optimal charge weight test today with a buddy who has been reloading for years (I’m new to this).

Savage 11 chambered in .308
IMR 4895
SMK 175
FC Brass
Federal 210M primers
COAL 2.805
Ambient temp was 71* climbing up to 75*

The results have me confused and worried. I noticed what looked like an ejector pin mark on the first round of the fourth charge weight (shooting round robin). My buddy asked if I got any resistance lifting the bolt on that round. I said no, he said proceed. We got through all 7 of the first rounds with no problem and started on the second rounds.

At the second round of the 6th charge weight, the primer popped. I was very nervous, didn't like that at all. But we pulled the bolt and didn’t see any damage. Buddy asks about bolt lift, it was normal. No resistance. Gladly, we didn’t fire the second round of the 7th charge weight. He talks me into firing the third round of charge weights stopping at the 5th charge weight. I had primers pop on both the 4th and 5th charge weights.

I’m using once fired (according to the guy I bought them from) FC brass which I’ve read can be soft and have loose primer pockets. I’m not comfortable at all with these popped primers and plan on having a gun smith look at the gun to make sure there is no damage. Looking at what I ended up with on paper, if I were to pursue these weights, I think I’d develop around 42.2 grains and 42.7 grains, but I’d buy some Winchester or Lapua brass first.

Or, I could start all over with a new max weight and keep the FC brass. I had picked 43.5 grains as my max which was still in the safe range according to IMR’s data, and pushing it according to my Lyman book/pamphlet. Sierra suggests a range of 36.7 to 41.5. If I were to start over, maybe I should use the 41.5 max.

I realize I’m rambling, so I guess my question is; should I use better brass, reduce my charge weights and start over, or both?

Also, I think I should have stopped when I saw ejector pin marks, but he says they’re not that deep and points out that I had normal bolt lift. He believes the problem was bad brass or bad primers and that the popped primers couldn't have been foreseen. Is that right?

 

[timelinex]

Try different brass or maybe different primers. Theres no reason you should ever have your primers pop. My load on my savage is relatively hot, but primers are always ok. During testing, I've went as high as needing a mallet to open the bolt, and still didn't have primer issues. I use winchester brass and cci BR-2's. I'm pretty sure you should start seeing hard bolt lift before primer popping.

 

[melloyello]

I don't believe it's the brass or the primers. I think something in your recipe or brass prep is causing it.
You stated you are using IMR4895. The minimum for that powder and bullet combination is 41gr and maximum is 45gr.
If using Hodgdon 4895(H4895) the minimum is 40gr and the maximum is 42.7gr
Just making sure you are using IMR and not Hodgdon. If you load H4895 to the recommended max for IMR4895 you could be asking for trouble.
Also, did you full length resize your brass? Was the brass trimmed, neck sized, etc? Give all the info on your load. Did you check headspace?

 

[HobbyShooter]

It is IMR.

I full length sized the brass with the depriming pin and expander ball in place. I set-up the die by threading it down until it contacted the shell holder, then twisting the die another 1/8 turn. After resizing a few pieces I chambered them to make sure they fit. The brass didn't need to be trimmed yet, although some pieces were close (2.014-2.015).

I chamferred the mouths, cleaned out the primer pockets, and deburred the flash hole. I used an ultrasonic cleaner to clean the brass. The primers were seated with the RCBS hand tool that came with my Rock Crusher kit. Powder was weighed with the scale that also came with the kit and the scale was leveled/zeroed out before weighing powder.

The seating die was set up by threading it down until it contacted a casing in the shell holder, then backed off 1/4 turn. I have some 175 grain Federal Gold Medal Match ammo left, so I measured the COAL of one of them and finding it to be 2.815", I picked 2.805" as my COAL even though the manual stated 2.800". I've been shooting the 2.815" FGMM with no issues, so I figured I would be okay at 2.805". Bullets were seated halfway approximately, then turned approximately 180* and seated the rest of the way.

I used the same buddy's go, no-go gauges to check headspace. I was able to chamber the go, and unable to chamber the no-go.

 

[demolitionman]

It is IMR.

I full length sized the brass with the depriming pin and expander ball in place. I set-up the die by threading it down until it contacted the shell holder, then twisting the die another 1/8 turn. After resizing a few pieces I chambered them to make sure they fit. The brass didn't need to be trimmed yet, although some pieces were close (2.014-2.015).

I chamferred the mouths, cleaned out the primer pockets, and deburred the flash hole. I used an ultrasonic cleaner to clean the brass. The primers were seated with the RCBS hand tool that came with my Rock Crusher kit. Powder was weighed with the scale that also came with the kit and the scale was leveled/zeroed out before weighing powder.

The seating die was set up by threading it down until it contacted a casing in the shell holder, then backed off 1/4 turn. I have some 175 grain Federal Gold Medal Match ammo left, so I measured the COAL of one of them and finding it to be 2.815", I picked 2.805" as my COAL even though the manual stated 2.800". I've been shooting the 2.815" FGMM with no issues, so I figured I would be okay at 2.805". Bullets were seated halfway approximately, then turned approximately 180* and seated the rest of the way.

I used the same buddy's go, no-go gauges to check headspace. I was able to chamber the go, and unable to chamber the no-go.

I believe he was wanting to know your headspace on your die setup in relation to amount of shoulder bump your seeing after fl size'n once fired brass.....

 

[HobbyShooter]

I'm not sure I'm following. Once fired FGMM brass from my rifle measures 1.622" with my Hornady cartridge headspace gauge. My reloads measure about 1.624". My resized brass measures 1.618" to 1.620". So I guess my die is bumping the shoulder back 2 to 4 thousandths. Is that what you're looking for?

 

[SporterII]

Photo shows some enlarged flash holes. 'Don't know if this is just the photograph but it looks big.

 

[melloyello]

It sounds like you covered it all to me. I was wanting to know how much you were bumping the shoulders back but you stated it. Everything sounds good. I guess it could be loose pockets. One of the big questions here may be "is it ONCE fired?". You have kinda got me stumped on this one.

 

[1lnbrdg]

Those loads could be a little hot for that rifle. I shoot 42.5gr IMR-4895 with 168gr Noslers in LC brass out to 600. 43gr in my rifle isn't hot but it doesn't shoot as well as the 42.5gr load.

FGMM brass. When Federal 1st started going to a 3-draw on the brass, all of the pockets were so soft, I couldn't get 1-reload out of them. Every one else does 4 draws on the brass when manufacturing and that work-hardens it more so the head/primer pockets aren't as soft.

I think people are getting a little more out of it now from what I hear, not sure if Federal changed anything though.

If it's older FGMM brass, that's probably the culprit because it was soft. What does that load do in Win, LC or Lupua brass?

 

[HobbyShooter]

Photo shows some enlarged flash holes. 'Don't know if this is just the photograph but it looks big.

If they're enlarged, it wasn't intentional. I've heard of people drilling them out bigger, but I haven't done that.

One of the big questions here may be "is it ONCE fired?". You have kinda got me stumped on this one.

I bought the 450 "once-fired" casings, Redding 308 dies, and 100 168 SMK bullets from a guy off a local gun exchange site. When I started to inspect the brass, I noticed most still had spent primers in them, some were deprimed/resized, and some had new primers in them. Some of my cases are way over the length limit. Limit is 2.015' and I've seen some as long as 2.022". I don't know how much they stretch during one firing, but I'm really wondering if I was sold his old, worn out brass.

FGMM brass. When Federal 1st started going to a 3-draw on the brass, all of the pockets were so soft, I couldn't get 1-reload out of them. Every one else does 4 draws on the brass when manufacturing and that work-hardens it more so the head/primer pockets aren't as soft.

I think people are getting a little more out of it now from what I hear, not sure if Federal changed anything though.

If it's older FGMM brass, that's probably the culprit because it was soft. What does that load do in Win, LC or Lupua brass?

It could be older brass too. I wonder if I'd be better off buying some new brass to find my load. Then if this older stuff can't handle the load I settle on, I would retire it. I also have some true once fired brass that I shot myself from brand new rounds, I could try that instead.

 

[HobbyShooter]

Could it be that IMR 4895 is too fast for the larger 175 smk? I messed around with the 168 smk's that came with my dies and brass and I was getting 3 shot groups that were touching with no overpressure signs.

 

[Dan Newberry]

IMR 4895 was the powder for the M118LR loads for a few years running, in Lake City brass of course. The charge was 42.0 grains. Lake City and Federal Brass are near identical (most lots) in capacity, so your node should have shown up at 42.0 grains--or very close to that.

If your rifle will eject the shell casings, it's fine. If it's not ejecting the shells (you have to pluck them out of the open breech with your fingers) then your ejector spring got torched in the blaze... and the spring, pin, and ejector should all be replaced. You can get a one time fix from just replacing the ejector spring--but next time you puke a primer, it'll weld that now softened ejector pin into the bolt head and you'll need a new bolt head then. (voice of sad experience here)...

But again, if shells are ejecting normally, there is no damage. The ejector and spring are the first casualties of a primer puke on a Savage 110 type action.

Get some different brass, or anneal those cases and load them at 42.0 grains (so long as you saw no pressure signs at the 42 grain level)...

In Winchester brass, the node is at 42.4 grains.

Dan

 

[scatterbrains]

I would try a small lot of a different brand brass winchester remington or LC.

By looking at your test target i would focus on the 42.4gr as it has the least amount of vertical stringing.

I would make 5 rounds at each 42.2gr, 42.4gr, and 42.6 and re shoot them.

I have had the worst luck with the FC brand brass in my 25AR, i have some winchester brass at 11 loadings and no issues with primer pockets, yet the FC brass im getting loose pockets and dropping primers at 6x reloaded. No annealing has been done as it was a 50rnd lot,25 each, for testing purposes only.

I know know that 5x reloaded and i toss all brass, FC gets tossed at 3x loaded.

 

[HobbyShooter]

The rifle ejects spent cartridges normally, so it sounds like I'm lucky! Thanks for the reassurance!

I've got some Winchester brass that I can try. Maybe I'll load up some rounds around that 42.4 node and if I get good results, I'll load some lower for the FC brass to see if I can get something to work.

Thanks for the help so far, guys!

On a side note, I was cleaning the rifle last night and noticed the front stock mount screw had turned out about 1/8" allowing the barrel to flop around in the stock a little. That was a bit of a shocker.

 

[HobbyShooter]

The wind was terrible yesterday, but calm and cool this morning. Here's what I ended up with:

I botched the shot left of the main group on 42.4. There were no overpressure signs with the Winchester brass I used today. It seems 42.5 and 42.6 have the same relative POI. I'm thinking I may want to try some loads at 42.7 and 42.8 to see if they are also in the same area. Thoughts?

 

[gvanhyning]

The 42.2, 42.3, and 42.4 loads have very little vertical spread and a lateral shot dispersion can usually be pulled together with seating depth adjustment.

 

[1lnbrdg]

Try them out at a further range and see what happens.

.1 grain increments are a little tight. Loosen up a little, .3 should work fine. What looks good at 100 yds can be pretty suprising at 300yds. At least you have a base to work from now though.

 

[Pinecone]

Remember, using OCW you are not looking at vertical spread or group size. You are looking for a series of increments that print to the same POI from the POA.

Normally shoot only 3 shot groups then find the center of each group and see which ones are similar POI.