OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

[Xdguy]

I worked up a new batch of test loads ranging from 43.9 to 45 grains of varget in .2 grain increments. All are 5 round groups. I've posted the results below.

The average velocities for each load are as follows:

43.9 = 2,643
44.2 = 2,654
44.4 = 2,656
44.6 = 2,669
44.8 = 2,677
45.0 = 2,690

I'm thinking 44.5 or 44.6 would be the OCW, but I'd like to know what you guys think.

ETA...It was a misreable 102 degrees today and I never really felt comfortable shooting. I called the flyer on 44.6, but I'm not sure about 44.8?

 

[richardj]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

Personally, if I had the time I'd load up 10 more of the 44.4 to 45.0 loads and shoot 5 each in a round robin at 100 and 300yrds... that would really answer the question.

I'm just about to move from 168SMK's to 175SMK's and I'm wondering if you used Lapua brass?
What rifle? customer chamber or factory?
Barrel length?

RJ

 

[Swan]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

ummm, unless my eyes deceive me... what about 43.9grs???

and do everyone a favor and test em all at 300yds

 

[Xdguy]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: richardj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personally, if I had the time I'd load up 10 more of the 44.4 to 45.0 loads and shoot 5 each in a round robin at 100 and 300yrds... that would really answer the question.

I'm just about to move from 168SMK's to 175SMK's and I'm wondering if you used Lapua brass?
What rifle? customer chamber or factory?
Barrel length?

RJ
</div></div>

Those were shot in round robin fashion. Sadly, I don't have access to a 300yrd range. The range I recently joined has 200yrd max and I have yet to even shoot on it. New to precision shooting and reloading. Lots still to learn.

The rifle is a stock rem 700p(I did have the triger lightened). 26" barrell, 1:12 twist. LC once fired brass with all the typical processing.

 

[Xdguy]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ummm, unless my eyes deceive me... what about 43.9grs???

and do everyone a favor and test em all at 300yds </div></div>

43.9 baffles me a little. I shot 5 round groups, but can only make out 3 in that group. So, it's either the tightest group I've ever shot, or the absolute worst. I may have to load a few more just to see if it truly is that good.

 

[LR-WSM]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

Are you seeing any pressure signs yet? If not i'd look a little higher like around 45.3 - 45.5

 

[Xdguy]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LR-WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you seeing any pressure signs yet? If not i'd look a little higher like around 45.3 - 45.5 </div></div>

Cratered primers, but this rifle seems to crater the primers through all charge weights.

Do you suggest working up to find more accuracy or is it just the added velocity?

 

[Scooter64]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

Good info, Can you give some specs on your rifle. Barrel length and twist rate?

 

[Xdguy]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FLHX</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good info, Can you give some specs on your rifle. Barrel length and twist rate? </div></div>

Couple of posts up.

 

[Rob01]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ummm, unless my eyes deceive me... what about 43.9grs???

and do everyone a favor and test em all at 300yds</div></div>

What he said. For the little extra velocity you are getting by upping the powder charge i would rather have the more accurate load.

As mentioned I always test loads at 100 and 300 yards. I have found if they work well at 300 yards then they work well to 1000. If you only have 200 then shoot it at that and see.

 

[kyreloader]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

From your targets, the POI is similar from 44.4 to 45g. Therefore, I would load some up around 44.7g and work on seating depth.

44.2g looks like a scatter group with 4 shots at the new/higher POI and 1 shot pointing up to low node. If that is the case, your OCW should by 1% higher or 44.6g and I think your targets solidify that. I would think 44.6 or 44.7g would be your OCW.

The 43.9g group has a different POI, so it would not be your OCW because the POI is different with the next charge up. You may try shooting less than 43.9g and see if there is a low node. If 44.2g is your scatter, than 43.7 or 43.8g would be your low node.

IMHO.

 

[LR-WSM]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

I took a look at my interior ballistics program and tuned the burn rate to your chronographed speeds. I guessed your staying with a magazine length round so I set that at 2.85. Since I don't know what brass your using or the H2O capacity I left this at default settings. My program shows a definete node on 43.5 ( low pressure ) but your case and pressure wont allow you to reach the next node up with varget, not enough boiler room. It looks like H-4895 would be a better powder selection.

 

[Rob01]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

Not the OCW? Who gives a shit! If it shoots like that and is giving good velocity, which it is, then load it and shoot it. The scope has knobs to adjust that POI

It's maybe 3/8" from the farthest of the others and close to the same for most.

You can waste alot of time, powder and bullets chasing "the load" but some can't see the forest for the trees.

 

[kyreloader]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not the OCW? Who gives a shit! If it shoots like that and is giving good velocity, which it is, then load it and shoot it. The scope has knobs to adjust that POI

It's maybe 3/8" from the farthest of the others and close to the same for most.

You can waste alot of time, powder and bullets chasing "the load" but some can't see the forest for the trees. </div></div>

It does matter if it is on the upper end of the node and something changes to the conditions. If either atemperature increase or his powder thrower throws a few more kernels of powder that push him to his scatter node, his good groups at 43.9g dont look so good any more. If you load in the middle of the node, temperature/thrower/etc. are less important. Find you OCW charge, then find the OAL to make it shoot.

Not wasting components when you can shoot a true OCW test, find your node and find your OAL with less than 50 bullets.

 

[Rob01]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

That's the good part about Varget in that you don't have to worry about the temp effecting the powder. I have shot my Varget powder charge from sub zero to over 100 and no changes.

Also if he is a good reloader he won't have extra grains in the powder charge. He would weigh and trickle every charge. If you go through that much work to get the right load you don't just trust a powder thrower, especially with a stick powder.

Maybe it's just me but I like shooting better than reloading and constantly testing loads. I would load more 43.9grn and shoot it at 200 and see what it does.

 

[Xdguy]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyreloader</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not the OCW? Who gives a shit! If it shoots like that and is giving good velocity, which it is, then load it and shoot it. The scope has knobs to adjust that POI

It's maybe 3/8" from the farthest of the others and close to the same for most.

You can waste alot of time, powder and bullets chasing "the load" but some can't see the forest for the trees. </div></div>

It does matter if it is on the upper end of the node and something changes to the conditions. If either atemperature increase or his powder thrower throws a few more kernels of powder that push him to his scatter node, his good groups at 43.9g dont look so good any more. If you load in the middle of the node, temperature/thrower/etc. are less important. Find you OCW charge, then find the OAL to make it shoot.

Not wasting components when you can shoot a true OCW test, find your node and find your OAL with less than 50 bullets. </div></div>

Correct, I am looking for the OCW because I do want some latitude. I'm new to this, but it's pretty apparent to me that there are just to many varibles to get each and every round exactly the same. The OCW meathod really appealed to me for this exact reason. Plus, like I said, I'm new to this, so every thing I do gains me both knowledge and experience. I don't really see this as "wasting" components becasue this is my hobby and I rather enjoy both reloading and shooting to see what I've come up with.

 

[Xdguy]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyreloader</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From your targets, the POI is similar from 44.4 to 45g. Therefore, I would load some up around 44.7g and work on seating depth.

44.2g looks like a scatter group with 4 shots at the new/higher POI and 1 shot pointing up to low node. If that is the case, your OCW should by 1% higher or 44.6g and I think your targets solidify that. I would think 44.6 or 44.7g would be your OCW.

The 43.9g group has a different POI, so it would not be your OCW because the POI is different with the next charge up. You may try shooting less than 43.9g and see if there is a low node. If 44.2g is your scatter, than 43.7 or 43.8g would be your low node.

IMHO. </div></div>

I agree. 44.4 - 45 have a similar POI. I was thinking 44.5 as the OCW, but 44.7 makes just as much sense. I will load up a new batch at 44.7 adjusting the seating depths to see if I can shrink these groups a little.

 

[kyreloader]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also if he is a good reloader he won't have extra grains in the powder charge. He would weigh and trickle every charge. If you go through that much work to get the right load you don't just trust a powder thrower, especially with a stick powder.
</div></div>

That is my point, if you get an OCW charge, you can throw your loads because 0.1 or 0.2g either way wont matter to velocity and POI.

I too would rather shoot than reload, that is why I like to do my work on the front end so that I will not have to change later. I know I have the right load.

 

[Rob01]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

Do what you want but if it was me I would be looking around the 43.9grn range. I would load but what do I know.

And yes you can get every round the same. Consistency is the key to accuracy when reloading. That's why I throw a powder charge and then trickle up to the correct charge weight with the pan on the scale. This way every powder charge weighs the same.

One thing you didn't mention was ES and SD numbers. What were those?

 

[Rob01]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyreloader</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
That is my point, if you get an OCW charge, you can throw your loads because 0.1 or 0.2g either way wont matter to velocity and POI.

I too would rather shoot than reload, that is why I like to do my work on the front end so that I will not have to change later. I know I have the right load.</div></div>

I wouldn't advise anyone to just throw a stick powder and expect to be that close. And .2grns, depending on the powder, can make a difference especially if shooting at long range.

I'm not saying not to put in the work to find the best load for the rifle. I found mine and have used the same 178/Varget charge for years. But when you shoot a group like the 43.9 showed you don't just go to the bigger groups without looking at it.

XDGuy, have fun reloading now that it's new to you as once you do it long enough you won't like it as much

 

[LR-WSM]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing you didn't mention was ES and SD numbers. What were those? </div></div>

Rob, I don't think he's gonna have ES and SD numbers untill he starts shooting concurent groups of the same charge. The round robin takes you through different charge and target every shot and repeting. Looking at the OP's velocity increases it seemed kinda of slow on the speed increase untill he hit his highest charge. A ladder test is better with a chrono, not sure about the round robin unless you see a drop in speed or a plateau.

 

[Rob01]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

He shot them over the chrono to get the velocity so just wondering if he got an idea of the ES from the rounds he fired?

 

[Xdguy]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyreloader</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
That is my point, if you get an OCW charge, you can throw your loads because 0.1 or 0.2g either way wont matter to velocity and POI.

I too would rather shoot than reload, that is why I like to do my work on the front end so that I will not have to change later. I know I have the right load.</div></div>

I wouldn't advise anyone to just throw a stick powder and expect to be that close. And .2grns, depending on the powder, can make a difference especially if shooting at long range.

I'm not saying not to put in the work to find the best load for the rifle. I found mine and have used the same 178/Varget charge for years. But when you shoot a group like the 43.9 showed you don't just go to the bigger groups without looking at it.

XDGuy, have fun reloading now that it's new to you as once you do it long enough you won't like it as much

</div></div>

I do and will continue to weigh each load. Well, technically the Chargemaster does that for me

. That's something I can definitely control.

I certainly haven't ruled out the 43.9 load. I may very well end up there. I'm just not willing to call it "THE" load yet. Ideally I'd like to get similar results with the knowledge that i have some latitude both above and below.

You mentioned ES and SD??

Extreme spread?
Standard Deviation?

You've now gone beyond my level of math knowlege.

ETA...Yes, once the new has worn off, I suspect that I won't enjoy it as much. That's why I already have a chargemaste. I quickly learned to hate trickling loads. The Giraud is next on my list.

 

[LR-WSM]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xdguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I certainly haven't ruled out the 43.9 load. I may very well end up there. I'm just not willing to call it "THE" load yet. Ideally I'd like to get similar results with the knowledge that i have some latitude both above and below.
</div></div>

I could be wrong but I don't think you have the room in your case to make it to the next higher node safely but all barrels are different. My program shows me that 43.9 is on the top end of your node and just a shade over 50,000 psi Your listed max with this cartridge is just over 60,000 psi. Are your cases sooty or are your necks carbon covered. Look down the barrel after a shot or two, does it look hazy and dirty. Shooting low pressure rounds will do this. What cronograph are you using? Just wondering about your speeds based on your charge weights.

 

[BCP]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do what you want but if it was me I would be looking around the 43.9grn range. I would load but what do I know.
</div></div>

Yeah if that's an honest group why keep messing with it?

edit: if the OP is using 45 grains varget in LC he's pretty brave. I shot 44 in LC brass and it was about max, good ejector marks and flat primers. I load 42.5 in LC brass for 2466 out of an 18" so probably 2600 in a 26".

 

[BCP]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

My RCBS throw puts varget within the thickness of the black "zero" line mark on my rcbs 10 10 beam scale. Oftentimes they are dead on. Once every 20-25 times I get a stuck grain in the thrower or something so I just throw it again. Even then my heaviest ones are only another 12fps over the chrono.

 

[Xdguy]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

It's the Pro Chrono and no, I have not checked it against another chrono. I of course have no way of measuring chamber pressure.

There is a little soot on the necks, but it's consistent throught all the different charges. Nothing extreme. I don't see any other obvious signs of pressure either. I am well above what my Hornady manual says. They show 43.2 as the max load running 2,500 fps. Having said that, all sources have different information and most of the people I polled are running this load closer to 45 grains and over 2,600fps. Before anybody has a meltdown, I did work my way up.

Were you saying that you don't think I have any room above 43.9, or the loads that I posted. I don't plan on going above 45 grains.

 

[Ol' RD]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do what you want but if it was me I would be looking around the 43.9grn range. I would load but what do I know.

And yes you can get every round the same. Consistency is the key to accuracy when reloading. That's why I throw a powder charge and then trickle up to the correct charge weight with the pan on the scale. This way every powder charge weighs the same.

One thing you didn't mention was ES and SD numbers. What were those?</div></div>

I'm in Robs corner on this one, I'd be all over that 43.9grs and move seating depth to see about tightening it up even more.

 

[BCP]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xdguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Were you saying that you don't think I have any room above 43.9, or the loads that I posted. I don't plan on going above 45 grains.

</div></div>

45 in Win brass is about max and Win is a LOT lighter than LC. FWIW I use the same powder, brass and bullet that you do and 42.5 is my load - light but really accurate. 44 was my other accurate one but it was only ~35fps more than 42.5 so I figured why bother.

 

[kyreloader]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

I thought the title of this thread was trying to find the OCW load, not an isolated group that shot well.

??

 

[Xdguy]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do what you want but if it was me I would be looking around the 43.9grn range. I would load but what do I know.
</div></div>

Yeah if that's an honest group why keep messing with it?

edit: if the OP is using 45 grains varget in LC he's pretty brave. I shot 44 in LC brass and it was about max, good ejector marks and flat primers. I load 42.5 in LC brass for 2466 out of an 18" so probably 2600 in a 26".


</div></div>

It is an honest group, but I can only make out 3 holes. I can't imagine missing the entire target board with the other 2, but I also can't say for certain because there are only 3 discernible holes in that group. Normally flyers are within an inch or just over.

I have a very accurate load with 42 grains running 2,529 fps. I was hoping to find a higher accuracy node which puts it over 2,600 fps.

What you call bravery, may just be stupidity?

 

[Xdguy]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xdguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Were you saying that you don't think I have any room above 43.9, or the loads that I posted. I don't plan on going above 45 grains.

</div></div>

45 in Win brass is about max and Win is a LOT lighter than LC. FWIW I use the same powder, brass and bullet that you do and 42.5 is my load - light but really accurate. 44 was my other accurate one but it was only ~35fps more than 42.5 so I figured why bother. </div></div>

It seems that I am pretty much replicating your results. I'm just not convinced that I can't safely find a hotter accuracy node.

 

[Xdguy]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyreloader</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought the title of this thread was trying to find the OCW load, not an isolated group that shot well.

?? </div></div>

It is, or at least it was.

 

[Rob01]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyreloader</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought the title of this thread was trying to find the OCW load, not an isolated group that shot well.

??</div></div>

It's called trusting what you are shooting, watching your numbers and using what you are seeing to get your load. The way some of us have done it for years before OCW popped up. It works.

Xdguy, good luck with your reloading. I'm out.

 

[Xdguy]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyreloader</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought the title of this thread was trying to find the OCW load, not an isolated group that shot well.

??</div></div>

It's called trusting what you are shooting, watching your numbers and using what you are seeing to get your load. The way some of us have done it for years before OCW popped up. It works.

Xdguy, good luck with your reloading. I'm out. </div></div>

Thanks Rob01 for your input. Definitely appreciated!

 

[LR-WSM]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xdguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Were you saying that you don't think I have any room above 43.9, or the loads that I posted. I don't plan on going above 45 grains. </div></div>

I was saying that the next node above the 43.3 - 43.9 is betwwen 45 and 46 grains according to my ballistics program. The pressures listed were well above max and the case fill ratio was 107+ percent.

 

[Xdguy]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LR-WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xdguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Were you saying that you don't think I have any room above 43.9, or the loads that I posted. I don't plan on going above 45 grains. </div></div>

I was saying that the next node above the 43.3 - 43.9 is betwwen 45 and 46 grains according to my ballistics program. The pressures listed were well above max and the case fill ratio was 107+ percent. </div></div>

From the feedback here and another board, I have decided to run some tests from 43.5 - 44.1. I think that I am going to find what I'm looking for somewhere in there. That should also keep me in a safe preasure range as you have suggested. Thanks for the input.

LR-WSM, what ballistics program are you using. It sounds pretty helpful.

 

[BCP]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xdguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xdguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Were you saying that you don't think I have any room above 43.9, or the loads that I posted. I don't plan on going above 45 grains.

</div></div>

45 in Win brass is about max and Win is a LOT lighter than LC. FWIW I use the same powder, brass and bullet that you do and 42.5 is my load - light but really accurate. 44 was my other accurate one but it was only ~35fps more than 42.5 so I figured why bother. </div></div>

It seems that I am pretty much replicating your results. I'm just not convinced that I can't safely find a hotter accuracy node. </div></div>

Again, why do you want more velocity? You don't need it. If you have an accurate load at ~2650 with a 178 amax then you are done.

308=/=300 win mag

 

[Xdguy]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xdguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xdguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Were you saying that you don't think I have any room above 43.9, or the loads that I posted. I don't plan on going above 45 grains.

</div></div>

45 in Win brass is about max and Win is a LOT lighter than LC. FWIW I use the same powder, brass and bullet that you do and 42.5 is my load - light but really accurate. 44 was my other accurate one but it was only ~35fps more than 42.5 so I figured why bother. </div></div>

It seems that I am pretty much replicating your results. I'm just not convinced that I can't safely find a hotter accuracy node. </div></div>

Again, why do you want more velocity? You don't need it. If you have an accurate load at ~2650 with a 178 amax then you are done.

308=/=300 win mag

</div></div>

That's just it, I don't have an accurate load at 2,650fps. I have an accurate load at 2,529fps using 42 grains. That's why I'm looking for the next hotter node. After much discussion both here and elsewhere, I'm now thinking the middle of the next higher node will be somewhere around 43.7 or 43.8 which is just shy of the 43.9 group that others have pointed out(you know, forest for trees). I'm not sure it will put me much overe 2,600fps, but it will be faster than 2,529fps and at least it will be safe.

The next batch is already loaded and ready to go, just need to get back to the range.

Thanks again everyone for all the responses. Reloading has made my gun obsession even more enjoyable.

 

[Ol' RD]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

Oh you will get OCD really quick if you let it get to ya!
Have fun!

 

[Bob L Swagger]

Re: OCW using 178grn Amax and varget

tag